what's the best way to gain performance driving skill for a beginner?

JPotter · 05-20-2010, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

I use computer sim a lot, iracing is a good start.

Autox helps, but it doesn't help that much. It is two different activity.

I wholeheartedly disagree.......

Computer sims, 'iracing', doesn't do anything but teach you lines and basic physics. There is no substitution for seat time and feeling real Gs and how the car behaves PAST it's limit.

Try doing that on a track as a novice and you'll end up without a ride very quickly. Or you auto-x for awhile, then get on a big track. So when you get loose for the first time on the big track @ 90+mph you know how to handle the car - THANKS to Auto-X.

I speak from experience. I did an HPDE after I had one auto-x experince. I simply did not have a good enough feeling of the car to push it past 7/10 on the track. I was scared to wreck it. I've played sims all my life, and the didn't prepare me for Gs. Sure, I knew all the basics of weight transfer, grip circle, lines, etc. But I can't stress it enough, until you FEEL them in a car, it is very different.

Fast forward to this year after I've had a lot more auto-x experience and I'm fully confident on a track. Driving 10/10's and having a blast.

It may be two different activities, but G's are G's, and car control is car control. There is no substitute for seat time, period. I can push my car much harder now, if I tried to learn it all on a 'big track' I would have spent a ton more money and time building confidence in the car and the limits. I got much faster, much more experienced, and a much better road race driver thanks to Auto-X since all I had to worry about when I pushed to far was hitting a cone. I didn't have to worry about those concrete barriers. Sims don't help with that either.

And pgrmst has is right on:
"a good autoxer makes a great road racer, but a good road racer doesn't necessarily make a good autoxer"

or another one I like:

"Drag Racing is for Fast Cars - AutoCross is for Fast Drivers"

cossie1600 · 05-20-2010, 01:33 PM

I certainly disagree with you as Gs are only a part of what you need to drive a car fast. I don't know how much experience you have in sims, but a good sim can show you the limit of the vehicles by making tire noise or by giving you feedback based on the steering or throttle response you put in.

I've been autox for 10+ years and I have participated in the nationals, the only thing autox teaches me is car control. When I am out on the track, I take a completely different approach as there is the speed factor, the $$ factor and lines are somewhat different too. In autox, you might take the line with the shortest distance vs the higher speed.

I also disagree with you regarding the autox guys are fast at track because many of them can't control a car past 70mph. Also with their kamikaze style, they are going to have a tough time going fast at twice the speed.

YouTube - Tom driving the 370z
YouTube - 0407 350Z HotLap Session 3B with Traffic Shenandoah

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPotter

I wholeheartedly disagree.......

Computer sims, 'iracing', doesn't do anything but teach you lines and basic physics. There is no substitution for seat time and feeling real Gs and how the car behaves PAST it's limit.

Try doing that on a track as a novice and you'll end up without a ride very quickly. Or you auto-x for awhile, then get on a big track. So when you get loose for the first time on the big track @ 90+mph you know how to handle the car - THANKS to Auto-X.

I speak from experience. I did an HPDE after I had one auto-x experince. I simply did not have a good enough feeling of the car to push it past 7/10 on the track. I was scared to wreck it. I've played sims all my life, and the didn't prepare me for Gs. Sure, I knew all the basics of weight transfer, grip circle, lines, etc. But I can't stress it enough, until you FEEL them in a car, it is very different.

Fast forward to this year after I've had a lot more auto-x experience and I'm fully confident on a track. Driving 10/10's and having a blast.

It may be two different activities, but G's are G's, and car control is car control. There is no substitute for seat time, period. I can push my car much harder now, if I tried to learn it all on a 'big track' I would have spent a ton more money and time building confidence in the car and the limits. I got much faster, much more experienced, and a much better road race driver thanks to Auto-X since all I had to worry about when I pushed to far was hitting a cone. I didn't have to worry about those concrete barriers. Sims don't help with that either.

And pgrmst has is right on:
"a good autoxer makes a great road racer, but a good road racer doesn't necessarily make a good autoxer"

or another one I like:

"Drag Racing is for Fast Cars - AutoCross is for Fast Drivers"

Nikon FM · 05-20-2010, 01:45 PM

Here's what I did:

Seattle Area

RCZ · 05-20-2010, 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JPotter

Fixed it.

You have to watch out for those that don't know any better. Personally, I've never met an auto-x driver that is jerking the car around @ speed. They shouldn't be on a track if they don't know any better.

Jerky inputs are also a no-no for auto-x. Inexperienced drivers may feel that jerky inputs are faster (you may feel a higher initial G spike, but the jerky inputs will bring you average G holding down vs. smooth inputs). I used to do the same - but never on a track.

That is one of the first things an advanced course such as EVO school will teach you.

But that is also why some Auto-X'er never get beyond mediocre drivers, and watch out if you are seeing these drivers try to bring that to the track, which like you say is a no no. They must not know any better.

But not all auto-x drivers have bad track habits. Thanks to Auto-X, road tracks feel like slow motion to me because I'm used to the faster pace of Auto-X.

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

I certainly disagree with you as Gs are only a part of what you need to drive a car fast. I don't know how much experience you have in sims, but a good sim can show you the limit of the vehicles by making tire noise or by giving you feedback based on the steering or throttle response you put in.

I've been autox for 10+ years and I have participated in the nationals, the only thing autox teaches me is car control. When I am out on the track, I take a completely different approach as there is the speed factor, the $$ factor and lines are somewhat different too. In autox, you might take the line with the shortest distance vs the higher speed.

I also disagree with you regarding the autox guys are fast at track because many of them can't control a car past 70mph. Also with their kamikaze style, they are going to have a tough time going fast at twice the speed.

YouTube - Tom driving the 370z
YouTube - 0407 350Z HotLap Session 3B with Traffic Shenandoah

Thats what I was trying to say and Cossie put it into words better than I can. We can all agree that they are two completely different driving styles, just like rallying is completely different, right? I don't think you can argue that. The "kamikaze style" as Cossie calls it is the feeling I get. Even the most experienced auto-x'ers who win all the time, violently toss their cars in and out of corners. Its full attack, fast left rights and tight corners through the slaloms and hairpins. That is very different than the smooth, flowing and high speed world of road courses.

I'm not saying one is less than the other, I'm just saying they are different driving styles. If you were to drive the autox track like a big track and vice versa then you would not be very good. No matter how good you are at auto-x, even if you are national champion, if that is the driving style you've learned, then that's what you're gonna want to do on the track and it simply will not end well at 100+mph.

It is a good bit safer to auto-x first and then take it to a road track...I think that is the right progression...

ResIpsa · 05-20-2010, 06:05 PM

Seat time.

JPotter · 05-22-2010, 12:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

Thats what I was trying to say and Cossie put it into words better than I can. We can all agree that they are two completely different driving styles, just like rallying is completely different, right? I don't think you can argue that. The "kamikaze style" as Cossie calls it is the feeling I get. Even the most experienced auto-x'ers who win all the time, violently toss their cars in and out of corners. Its full attack, fast left rights and tight corners through the slaloms and hairpins. That is very different than the smooth, flowing and high speed world of road courses.

I'm not saying one is less than the other, I'm just saying they are different driving styles. If you were to drive the autox track like a big track and vice versa then you would not be very good. No matter how good you are at auto-x, even if you are national champion, if that is the driving style you've learned, then that's what you're gonna want to do on the track and it simply will not end well at 100+mph.

It is a good bit safer to auto-x first and then take it to a road track...I think that is the right progression...

ABSOLUTELY!!! Don't get me wrong, re-reading my posts makes me sound like Auto-X is the ONLY way to get experience.

IMO it is the cheapest and easiest - but totally agree driving on the track requires a different style/approach than auto-x.

05-20-2010, 01:45 PM	#3 (permalink)
Nikon FM Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Snoqualmie WA Posts: 973 Drives: 03 996TT Porsche Rep Power: 606	To the OP Here's what I did: Seattle Area __________________ Buddy Revell: "One man's sooner is another man's later"

05-20-2010, 06:05 PM	#5 (permalink)
ResIpsa Track Member Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: Virginia Posts: 564 Drives: 09 RACING HEN Rep Power: 338	Seat time. __________________ The Reed Law Firm; Michael Fasano VA Attorney and Counselor at Law: A Virginia Traffic, Criminal, and Family Lawyer.https://reedlawva.com/

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