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MaysEffect 10-12-2017 01:06 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcheng (Post 3699766)
.... a lot of fans are asking to bring back the NA V10 or even V12.

Pretty sure they will not bring back the NA, but do you guys feel the current PU is too costly and too complicated ?
Efficiency cost money to do it right. I'd personally like to see open engine options like in the past. v6th, v8h, v10 n/a. each with different weight penalties.

Unquestionably most teams will still choose the v6th. With more privateers opting for a more reliable n/a engine. An n/a alternative would bring several companies back in to the sport. BMW, Cosworth, VAG...

The v6th is for sure the most expensive and most complicated engine, but the level of efficiency is unmatched for the performance. In only 4 years of the formula it has already surpassed the performance of the best v10 engines with TC and less weight. It took almost 10 years of v10 development to reach its pinnacle. Granted there was a significant technological boom on going during its evolution. I don't see how much more power can be extracted from n/a engines. Having a v8 or v10 turbo hybrid would weigh too much and cost even more.

I think however the promoters should televise historical gp car racing, and have more drivers be able to race the older cars on shorter sessions. Like 15-25 laps. Teams already using the old chassis for promotional work.

This would cost a lot of money though to have multiple races with multiple cars per team. :rolleyes:

axmea? 10-12-2017 01:10 PM
Advancing technology and pushing the envelope is costly. The current PU and chassis makes them faster so I doubt they'll go back to NA. I wouldn't want them to go back.

MaysEffect 10-12-2017 01:31 PM
Quote:
When LH had bad luck with a motor he suffered for not working hard and driving smarter to make his luck/situation better.
Motors... plural. he had multiple motor failures. Let's not also forget the dirty tricks Rosberg attempted to keep Lewis from winning... Spain, Austria.... yea.
Let's not also forget Rosberg had zero response for Hamilton on the wet races, or anyone else for that matter. Getting beat by Hulkenberg at Monaco. Rosberg is not a champion like the Rest. 90% gifted his title last year. However i think it was good for the team and the sport. Having one driver dominate the team and the sport is demoralizing for everyone. It also made for an interesting season on and off the track.

Watching Vettel win 4 straight seasons was absolutely boring for a lot of people, certainly at the end of 2013 when he just walked away with the championship. I didn't even bother waking up early to watch the last races.

DLSTR 10-12-2017 01:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodz (Post 3699739)
Lol, if Rosberg is so much better why did he quit after winning the championship? Makes no sense as every other champion wants to defend their championship or win a second one to prove that it was not fluke. Rosberg knew he was not number 1 and took his ball and went home! He won the championship but he is and never will be the driver Hamilton, Vettel, or Alonzo are period!

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He quit after achieving his goal. Drivers leave F1. After 2 years or 10. This is most certainly not news. He is a WDC period. Do you realize how long he had been in F1. Nico did what he wanted with his life. That is what life is about. I dont see him leaning on F1 the way some drivers do like Kimi. The ultimate one title waste of time. His last win was when??????????

I never said Nico was better but last year he drover smarter and worked harder. Do you know how much karting he was doing after races and even before the season to refine his race -craft? Thats called working to win. LH is doing alot of what Nico did last year. Too bad he wasnt in 2016. Lauda blamed him for Spain and bluntly. Simple fact is LH didnt make his luck when he needed it. Considering the gap Bottas has to LH it makes it more apparent how good Nico was. Nico had his own share of bad luck and unreliability and he got it right, won the title and left on top. What the fk is that ....failure??

DLSTR 10-12-2017 02:05 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaysEffect (Post 3699803)
Motors... plural. he had multiple motor failures. Let's not also forget the dirty tricks Rosberg attempted to keep Lewis from winning... Spain, Austria.... yea.
Let's not also forget Rosberg had zero response for Hamilton on the wet races, or anyone else for that matter. Getting beat by Hulkenberg at Monaco. Rosberg is not a champion like the Rest. 90% gifted his title last year. However i think it was good for the team and the sport. Having one driver dominate the team and the sport is demoralizing for everyone. It also made for an interesting season on and off the track.

Watching Vettel win 4 straight seasons was absolutely boring for a lot of people, certainly at the end of 2013 when he just walked away with the championship. I didn't even bother waking up early to watch the last races.
Nico was in the car driving it. He won. Thats makes him a WDC. Same as all other winners. Gifted title would the choke of the century when Mclaren gifted the title to Kimi. Thats the real joke WDC on the grid. Nico never backed down and LH knew he had his hands full with him. Give credit where its due. Id like to see anyone on this forum say to his face he is not a WDC.

Beyond stupid it would be. Id take Nico over many of the drivers on the grid. He is beyond smart. Speaks 4+ languages and scored the highest ever on the Williams engineering test when he joined F1. Yea, Nico is not a confident or capable driver LOL. What part of not winning did he fail at. He won by beating LH in the same car on the same tracks. Shite fails on cars. Sometimes good for you, sometimes not but he didnt quit until he achieved his goal. Thats life. Either you succeed or not.

Hulk......please the epitome of journeyman. He can hang out with Heidfeld. I have the address. How many wins does Hulk have or even podiums LOL. Whatever.....Nico played well against MS as well. Yep Nico is just another F1 driver LOL......

DLSTR 10-12-2017 02:23 PM
Lauda opens up on Rosberg/Hamilton relationship

Niki knows nothing about struggle in F1 either I guess LOL.

Hotrodz 10-12-2017 02:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSTR (Post 3699811)
He quit after achieving his goal. Drivers leave F1. After 2 years or 10. This is most certainly not news. He is a WDC period. Do you realize how long he had been in F1. Nico did what he wanted with his life. That is what life is about. I dont see him leaning on F1 the way some drivers do like Kimi. The ultimate one title waste of time. His last win was when??????????

I never said Nico was better but last year he drover smarter and worked harder. Do you know how much karting he was doing after races and even before the season to refine his race -craft? Thats called working to win. LH is doing alot of what Nico did last year. Too bad he wasnt in 2016. Lauda blamed him for Spain and bluntly. Simple fact is LH didnt make his luck when he needed it. Considering the gap Bottas has to LH it makes it more apparent how good Nico was. Nico had his own share of bad luck and unreliability and he got it right, won the title and left on top. What the fk is that ....failure??
Obviously you are a Nico fan and that is cool and you don't have to take my comments so personal. He is a world champion and I don't know anything about his life goals. Maybe it was something he needed to do because it was his daddy's dream and not his? I really doesn't matter because he is yesterday's news and unlike Kimi he is no longer relevant. If Nico comes back we can carry on the discussion. Cheers Mate!

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alcheng 10-12-2017 02:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSTR (Post 3699816)
Lauda opens up on Rosberg/Hamilton relationship

Niki knows nothing about struggle in F1 either I guess LOL.

He is old and he might sound stupid at some point nowadays, but Niki Lauda knows how to drive an F1 car, how to build up an F1 team and how politics work in F1 better than anyone.


He went to Ferrari when the team was struggling badly at that time and than he took WDC with Ferrari.

When he won his 3rd and last WDC with McLaren in 1984, he knew he just need to finish 3rd to take the tittle even if Prost wins the race, thus when he was up in 3rd, he started cruising, even let the slower cars un-lap him, that year, he took the WDC by a 0.5 point advantage.

In 1985, where Ron Dennis said they want to put Prost as the 1st driver and have Lauda to support Prost, Lauda refused and told Ron he will drive in his own term. That year, McLaren favorite Prost a big time, where Prost took the WDC and Lauda was down the table nowhere, that's when Lauda retired.

He is old and maybe arrogant, but he is very very smart.

DLSTR 10-12-2017 03:00 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcheng (Post 3699826)
He is old and he might sound stupid at some point nowadays, but Niki Lauda knows how to drive an F1 car, how to build up an F1 team and how politics work in F1 better than anyone.


He went to Ferrari when the team was struggling badly at that time and than he took WDC with Ferrari.

When he won his 3rd and last WDC with McLaren in 1984, he knew he just need to finish 3rd to take the tittle even if Prost wins the race, thus when he was up in 3rd, he started cruising, even let the slower cars un-lap him, that year, he took the WDC by a 0.5 point advantage.

In 1985, where Ron Dennis said they want to put Prost as the 1st driver and have Lauda to support Prost, Lauda refused and told Ron he will drive in his own term. That year, McLaren favorite Prost a big time, where Prost took the WDC and Lauda was down the table nowhere, that's when Lauda retired.

He is old and maybe arrogant, but he is very very smart.
He had a thankless job managing Nico and LH. He did the best he could and holds nothing back. I like Niki alot and its fun to hear him assess issues in F1.

alcheng 10-12-2017 03:23 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSTR (Post 3699828)
He had a thankless job managing Nico and LH. He did the best he could and holds nothing back. I like Niki alot and its fun to hear him assess issues in F1.

I think it's very similar to Vettel + Webber, or, the toughest one I bet is that year when McLaren had Alonso and Hamilton.


I think, though, rosberg is easier to handle than hamilton.

MaysEffect 10-12-2017 07:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSTR (Post 3699813)
Hulk......please the epitome of journeyman. He can hang out with Heidfeld. I have the address. How many wins does Hulk have or even podiums LOL. Whatever....
Doesn't this point make it even more laughable that Rosberg is a champion? Being beat by a "journeymen". :rolleyes: why is it that he needs to go train in karting as a current f1 driver? Perfect his race craft? Lol he's had as much time as Hamilton if not more to perfect his driving coming up the ranks. Him needing additional training is laughable just so he can win one championship and quit.

And i don't see how Lauda's opinions mean anything. His role as as a manager is as glorified as Trump being president now. It's a thankless job because he offers absolutely nothing to the overall sucess of a race weekend. He's not a drivers coach nor is he a race engineer. So what if blames LH for the crash in spain. Everyone watching the disaster can clearly see who caused the incident. Just as we could in Austria. Its funny how you don't have an opinion on that incident.

Nico hanging along with Schumacher? Lol what a joke. Hamilton came along and outraced him handedly for 3 straight seasons before he could even challenge him with the help of the team.

I'm not getting wrapped up in this useless argument about a quitter who may never return to the sport. We can agree to disagree.

Thank you alcheng for trying to shift the topic to something better such as new tech and engine changes for the future.

JARblue 10-12-2017 10:50 PM
I like complicated because it really allows the top teams to shine when they build right. But costly means that teams with more money have an inherent advantage, which I'm not a fan of at all.

Hotrodz 10-12-2017 11:05 PM
Just for argument sake do ya think that a NA V10 could compete given the aero of today? Aero seems to be as important as the PU and can level the playing field depending on the track.

I don't think NA PU can make the need mpg to finish a race even with aero consideration.

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MaysEffect 10-13-2017 12:23 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodz (Post 3699919)
Just for argument sake do ya think that a NA V10 could compete given the aero of today? Aero seems to be as important as the PU and can level the playing field depending on the track.

I don't think NA PU can make the need mpg to finish a race even with aero consideration.

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With weight penalties as a BOP, i think it could. But the v6th makes about 400ft/ib of torque more throughout the rev range and over 150hp, and this is back from 2014/5 studies. The offset in weight penalties would need to be in excess of 300ibs. There are to many variables to say.

I think it will be a case where some cars have the advantage at certain tracks. The turbo hybrids at the faster tracks. And the n/a lighter cars at the tighter tracks. This would make for a great spectacle.

For argument sake, i wish some team would just try the options with the current chassis format. We don't even truly know which chassis was the best because there has been so many formula changes and track changes that render the track record statistics almost incomparable..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qs8P...yqw-ZIvz31zFvo

Here is probably the most consistent comparison thus far. Then on top of this, the 2017 car was 2.6 seconds faster! However the 2016 cars are still the fastest F1 cars in a straight line.

DLSTR 10-13-2017 12:54 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by MaysEffect (Post 3699874)
Doesn't this point make it even more laughable that Rosberg is a champion? Being beat by a "journeymen". :rolleyes: why is it that he needs to go train in karting as a current f1 driver? Perfect his race craft? Lol he's had as much time as Hamilton if not more to perfect his driving coming up the ranks. Him needing additional training is laughable just so he can win one championship and quit.

And i don't see how Lauda's opinions mean anything. His role as as a manager is as glorified as Trump being president now. It's a thankless job because he offers absolutely nothing to the overall sucess of a race weekend. He's not a drivers coach nor is he a race engineer. So what if blames LH for the crash in spain. Everyone watching the disaster can clearly see who caused the incident. Just as we could in Austria. Its funny how you don't have an opinion on that incident.



Nico hanging along with Schumacher? Lol what a joke. Hamilton came along and outraced him handedly for 3 straight seasons before he could even challenge him with the help of the team.

I'm not getting wrapped up in this useless argument about a quitter who may never return to the sport. We can agree to disagree.

Thank you alcheng for trying to shift the topic to something better such as new tech and engine changes for the future.
LH was beat. Nico won. He drove to win. I guess thats not good enough since you simply dont like him LOL. Im amazed as the reference to Hulk LOL. He has done what?

I dont like any one driver over another, but Im not dumb or blind enough to say a driver making the effort isnt good enough or doesnt rate the title.

Quitter. All driver leave the sport. Another rather ridiculous point. Say you simply dont like Nico and it might give you some credibility.

What we see this year is what we saw last year. Vettel having issues and LH making his own luck to win a title in a car that is in fact less capable in general than the Ferrari. Should I say LH is not worthy since its Vettel's mistakes and car issues really helping LH?

Seriously seek help or post elsewhere. If you want a discussion start by being rational. Bias and blatant ignorance dont make a good argument. Useless rather describes your points well.

alcheng 10-13-2017 01:33 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodz (Post 3699919)
Just for argument sake do ya think that a NA V10 could compete given the aero of today? Aero seems to be as important as the PU and can level the playing field depending on the track.

I don't think NA PU can make the need mpg to finish a race even with aero consideration.

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nobody can answer that.

you are asking if they put an old NA V10 in a new chassis, it's not a valid question at all.

In the case of a new V10, or V8, it's going to be a brand new design according to the new regulations, then surely it will have to meet, the new regulation ie power and fuel consumption.

alcheng 10-13-2017 01:48 AM
Regarding those posts/arguments (or whatever you call them)

I think this respectful person sums it up:

Allison ducks 'who is the best driver' question | PlanetF1 : PlanetF1



And I believe we should move on to the next topic.

By the way, this is an open forum and we are free to express our comments and opinion.

Meanwhile, please also keep in mind that we are not in here to convince our thoughts to the others, we might also want to digest others thoughts and opinions and have neutral discussion.

Keep ourselves open thus expand the horizon of our mind. :tiphat:

Hotrodz 10-13-2017 09:38 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcheng (Post 3699936)
nobody can answer that.

you are asking if they put an old NA V10 in a new chassis, it's not a valid question at all.

In the case of a new V10, or V8, it's going to be a brand new design according to the new regulations, then surely it will have to meet, the new regulation ie power and fuel consumption.
I guess I was not clear enough as I agree that it would not be fair comparison or worth much a discussion talking about and old NA engine.

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alcheng 10-13-2017 12:26 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hotrodz (Post 3699997)
I guess I was not clear enough as I agree that it would not be fair comparison or worth much a discussion talking about and old NA engine.

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the issue with the current PU is it consists many components and the cost from R&D to manufacturing is very costly, thus lots of manufactures are hesitating to go for it.

Thus I am, as many others are, thinking the current PU is not actually cost effective, it does cost more to build and it cost more for the teams to pay.

I wish the new engine will be a bit more simple and less costly, thus more manufactures can get involved, more competitive, thus the result is more exciting races.

MaysEffect 10-13-2017 12:35 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcheng (Post 3699936)
...
In the case of a new V10, or V8, it's going to be a brand new design according to the new regulations, then surely it will have to meet, the new regulation ie power and fuel consumption.
Maybe so, maybe not. The trend as of the last 3-4 decades was to keep the displacement between 240-300cc per cylinder. A over square design of roughly 3.5-4.2inch bore, and 1.4-2.3inch stroke. Regardless of the regulations we can expect this to stay constant.

Performance figures will vary but we can't say for sure that a new 3 liter v10 will make a significant amount more now than it did 12 years ago. Certainly with the current fuel regulations. But i highly doubt they will change the displacement levels.

Hotrodz 10-13-2017 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcheng (Post 3700027)
the issue with the current PU is it consists many components and the cost from R&D to manufacturing is very costly, thus lots of manufactures are hesitating to go for it.

Thus I am, as many others are, thinking the current PU is not actually cost effective, it does cost more to build and it cost more for the teams to pay.

I wish the new engine will be a bit more simple and less costly, thus more manufactures can get involved, more competitive, thus the result is more exciting races.
Agreed, I am really liking what IMSA is doing in the Daytona prototype series along with the others. They are attracting a lot of new or previous manufacturers back to the game. It is pretty exciting to see the different PU and chassis combination on the track together.

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MaysEffect 10-13-2017 12:52 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcheng (Post 3700027)
I wish the new engine will be a bit more simple and less costly, thus more manufactures can get involved, more competitive, thus the result is more exciting races.
I'm not sure the complexity of the engine is the reason for non competitiveness. It's simply the fact the cars are way too fast. The efficiency and packaging of these smaller 1.6 engines outway the cost problems. Every manufacturer on or off the track are trading in big n/a engines for small turbo engines. If we want more competition they would need to put more restrictions on speed and grip levels. These cars are pulling more g's than ever before in racing history with faster overall speeds. This makes it incredibly difficult for the drivers. Most of the problems comes from the advancements in aerodynamics and tire design though. Why are the ultra soft tires lasting half a race! The medium compound is arguably the hardest tire needed for any track on the calendar. So most of the problems are not engine related.

DLSTR 10-13-2017 01:06 PM
Took Vettel a long time to admit this. Now that he is more than 2 races in points down. Useless that all was. A victory tossed.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/13...ith-baku-clash

DLSTR 10-13-2017 01:31 PM
The second Williams seat (or is it the first one?)

October 13, 2017 by Joe Saward

https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017...the-first-one/

DLSTR 10-19-2017 11:18 AM
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017...or-a-dutch-gp/


The importance of Max – and hopes for a Dutch GP

October 18, 2017 by Joe Saward

MaysEffect 10-19-2017 12:04 PM
There is a plethora of horrible statistics in that article.

DLSTR 10-20-2017 03:54 AM
US GP: Things to look out for and what we'll be talking about | F1 News

Overview of this weekend's event...

axmea? 10-20-2017 09:48 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSTR (Post 3701315)
https://joesaward.wordpress.com/2017...or-a-dutch-gp/


The importance of Max – and hopes for a Dutch GP

October 18, 2017 by Joe Saward
Regardless of the alleged statistical flaw can Max' popularity and his orange army bring F1 back to Netherlands? Only if he wins a championship then maybe.

MaysEffect 10-20-2017 12:49 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by axmea? (Post 3701557)
Regardless of the alleged statistical flaw can Max' popularity and his orange army bring F1 back to Netherlands? Only if he wins a championship then maybe.
You mean like an actual calendar track? That would probably be the most expensive event on calendar. Zandvoort would be the closest to being approved again but would take a lot of remodeling.

axmea? 10-20-2017 04:12 PM
Yes. That's where they had it before and since it's been over 30 yrs since the last race will need updating.

alcheng 10-20-2017 04:51 PM
https://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/...cond-practice/

surely the pace in FP may not represent the real pace of each, but looks like hamilton is already going all out from the 1st minute.

JARblue 10-21-2017 07:26 AM
More action today! My wife and I made it on TV during FP 1 yesterday. It's the 43:10 mark remaining when they showed the Shooey flag. We were on the bottom left of the screen :hello:

DLSTR 10-21-2017 09:22 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by alcheng (Post 3701671)
https://www.gpupdate.net/en/f1-news/...cond-practice/

surely the pace in FP may not represent the real pace of each, but looks like hamilton is already going all out from the 1st minute.
They said they needed to make changes to his car but he was fast. Vettel has a new chassis now. Either they saw something or they are throwing anything they can at his perceived issues. Red Bull might get close but unless Prac 3 has some surprises LH looks to be in control right now!

DLSTR 10-21-2017 11:20 AM
Prac 3 is on!

Watch SkySports F1 | SkyF1 | Sky Sports F1 | Sky F1 Live Stream Online

alcheng 10-21-2017 11:51 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by DLSTR (Post 3701775)
They said they needed to make changes to his car but he was fast. Vettel has a new chassis now. Either they saw something or they are throwing anything they can at his perceived issues. Red Bull might get close but unless Prac 3 has some surprises LH looks to be in control right now!
he usually won't be the top of the sheet until FP3 or qualify, but this weekend is different, looks like he wants to grab it in Austin again.

MaysEffect 10-21-2017 02:12 PM
Bottas seems to be on form. He could give Vettel a lot of trouble on the start if he has a clean quali.

God-Speed 10-22-2017 07:40 AM
Well with the morning rains here in Austin this morning, it's going to make a interesting start to the race!!! :driving:

DLSTR 10-22-2017 01:18 PM
Race Day in Texas! Watch SkySports F1 | SkyF1 | Sky Sports F1 | Sky F1 Live Stream Online

axmea? 10-22-2017 11:17 PM
What's the matter with these stewards? Damn it!

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...alised-969289/

alcheng 10-23-2017 01:49 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by axmea? (Post 3702067)
What's the matter with these stewards? Damn it!

https://www.motorsport.com/f1/news/r...alised-969289/

watched the replay again and again.... and yes, verstappen cut the corner, whole car was on the island...

he won't have enough room to pass if he keeps the car on the legal area.

too bad... he drove a brilliant race today.

@ 0:08, 0:33, 0:44

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rP6zj5_igiE


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