Dealer Wont Deal???

edeeZee · 08-13-2009, 01:54 PM

Source: Dealer holdback at Edmunds car price guide

What Are Holdbacks For?
Dealerships must have an inventory on hand so that consumers can browse and ultimately select a vehicle. Dealerships must pay for this inventory when it is obtained from the manufacturer, and the amount the dealer pays is the price reflected on the invoice from the manufacturer to the dealer, the so-called "invoice price."

Now the twist: with the introduction of holdbacks some years ago, most manufacturers inflated the invoice prices for every vehicle by a predetermined amount (2-3% of MSRP is typical). The dealer pays that inflated amount when it buys the car from the manufacturer. But later, at predetermined times (usually quarterly), the manufacturer reimburses the dealer for that excess amount. This is the "holdback," so named because funds are "held back" by the manufacturer and released only some time after the vehicle is invoiced to the dealership.

Why the sleight-of-hand you might ask? Because holdbacks can benefit dealers in three ways:

1.Dealerships borrow money to finance cars based on an invoiced amount that includes the holdback. So the higher the invoiced amount, the more the dealership can borrow from its lender.

2.Inflating the dealership's "cost" can have the effect of increasing profit, since sales personnel are paid commissions based on the "gross profit" of each sale. Holdbacks have the effect of lowering the gross profit and thus the sales commissions.

3.Holdbacks enable dealerships to advertise "invoice price" sales and sell their vehicles at or near invoice and still make hundreds of dollars on the transaction.
Holdbacks Allow "Invisible" Dealer Profits
This holdback amount is "invisible" to the consumer because it does not appear as an itemized fee on the window sticker. For example, let's say you're interested in a Chevrolet with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $20,500, including optional equipment and a $500 destination charge. Let's also say that dealer invoice on this hypothetical Chevy is $18,000. The cost of the car includes a dealer holdback that, in the case of all Chevy vehicles, amounts to 3% of the MSRP, or $600. (Note that the $500 destination charge should not be included when computing the holdback.) So, on this particular Chevy, the true dealer cost is actually $17,400. Even if the dealer sells you the car for the invoice price, which is unlikely, he would still be making as much as $600 on the deal (when his quarterly check from GM arrives).

Dealer holdback allows dealers to advertise attractive sales. Often, ads promise that your new car will cost you just "$1 over/under invoice!"

Almost all dealerships consider holdback money "sacred" and are unwilling to share any portion of it with the consumer. Don't push the issue. Your best strategy is to avoid mentioning the holdback during negotiations. Mention holdback only if the dealer gives you some song-and-dance about not making any money on the proposed deal when you know that isn't true.

However, the standard dealer holdback is not the only form of financial assistance provided to dealers by manufacturers. There are many other types of holdbacks and dealer credits that may be available from specific manufacturers at various times — some of which consumers may hear about and others of which are never disclosed to the public — but each of which can have the effect of reducing the net cost of a vehicle to the dealer. These include:

•Advertising credits

•Flooring assistance

•Floor interest reserve

•Floor plan allowance

•Transfer balance

•Wholesale reserve

•Wholesale credits
Negotiate Using Incentives, Not HoldbacksIn addition, the dealer stands to reap further benefits if there is "dealer cash" being offered by the manufacturer on the car you are considering. In many instances you can learn about dealer cash in our Incentives and Rebates section. However, unless you know all of these other fees (and who does?), establishing the dealer's true cost can be frustratingly elusive. It's for this reason that Edmunds.com has established True Market Value® pricing that accurately reflects "what others are paying" by taking into account all of these fees. The Edmunds.com True Market Value Price® is the "bottom line" and what you really need to know in order to negotiate a fair deal. Check it out at: New car prices, new car reviews at Edmunds.

In summary, holdback is nice to know, but is just one small piece of a complex puzzle.

alvinmathew88 · 08-13-2009, 02:18 PM

Wow way to thread jack guys....

I think yal should make a section in this forum, for discussing how Dealerships should/do profit or run their business. Besides that i think yal should take this discussion elsewhere... even though i find your discussion very interesting...

edeeZee · 08-13-2009, 02:19 PM

It's OK Hitech, no offense taken. But it's humorous to see the time and toil you took to write out your superfluous post. Is that you Davidyan? I didn't know vindication and having thin skin is the way you demonstrated not being able to handle another's disagreement. You think extraneous fluff is validating?

Anyhows, I don't use "hearsay" to explain my points. I was in the car biz from '99-'02. You never mentioned whether you had direct experience, or if you read a lot of "how to negotiate a new car" tactic from outside sources. 1% per month to floor could've been likely during that era. The economy wasn't in shambles like today, and interest rates (controlled by the Feds) were probably a lot higher. Thus 12% a year then was probable.

The $400K/month figure was casually given to me by my friend. It doesn't imply that it is a detailed figure EVERY MONTH, it was ballpark instead. Seriously, are you the auditor for this dealer? Then how do you know. How many VW's, Hyundai's or Lincolns did we move. The profit margins on all 3 brands vary. FYI, we moved primarily VW Jettas and Passats; Jettas had less then $1,500 profit typically, and Passats had around $1,700 on average. And you know what? We blew every unit out at invoice because VW's don't pull like crazy. This store was good, they paid the salesman $200 flats because if it was 20% after $500 pack, then they couldn't retain sales people.

Like I said, there's nothing wrong with negotiating a deal. But trying to take all the meat off the bone is going to lead to dealer kicking you out. We live in a capitalistic society, if you don't like the deal, then you got the freedom to walk out, you're not under duress.

BTW, I don't tip waiters nor waitresses who cop an attitude. I literally pay the bill and don't leave no change.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Car wont start	faijia	Nissan 370Z General Discussions	4	06-14-2009 11:37 PM
Dealer wont budge - 07 tour/sport/nav/ 40,000	Cjanik	Nissan 370Z Pricing / Ordering Discussions	28	05-30-2009 12:44 AM
Nismo Z with 7K miles for under $28M - Deal or No Deal?	speed_BMW330i	Nissan 370Z General Discussions	16	05-27-2009 07:06 AM
I just fought with dealer and got a deal.	spia	Nissan 370Z Pricing / Ordering Discussions	23	05-14-2009 12:42 PM
Dealer Invoice at my dealer . .	TN370ZLC	Nissan 370Z Pricing / Ordering Discussions	8	03-17-2009 12:44 AM

08-13-2009, 01:54 PM	#1 (permalink)
edeeZee Track Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: s. cali, los angeles Posts: 627 Drives: 09 370z plat 6 speed Rep Power: 268	Source: Dealer holdback at Edmunds car price guide What Are Holdbacks For? Dealerships must have an inventory on hand so that consumers can browse and ultimately select a vehicle. Dealerships must pay for this inventory when it is obtained from the manufacturer, and the amount the dealer pays is the price reflected on the invoice from the manufacturer to the dealer, the so-called "invoice price." Now the twist: with the introduction of holdbacks some years ago, most manufacturers inflated the invoice prices for every vehicle by a predetermined amount (2-3% of MSRP is typical). The dealer pays that inflated amount when it buys the car from the manufacturer. But later, at predetermined times (usually quarterly), the manufacturer reimburses the dealer for that excess amount. This is the "holdback," so named because funds are "held back" by the manufacturer and released only some time after the vehicle is invoiced to the dealership. Why the sleight-of-hand you might ask? Because holdbacks can benefit dealers in three ways: 1.Dealerships borrow money to finance cars based on an invoiced amount that includes the holdback. So the higher the invoiced amount, the more the dealership can borrow from its lender. 2.Inflating the dealership's "cost" can have the effect of increasing profit, since sales personnel are paid commissions based on the "gross profit" of each sale. Holdbacks have the effect of lowering the gross profit and thus the sales commissions. 3.Holdbacks enable dealerships to advertise "invoice price" sales and sell their vehicles at or near invoice and still make hundreds of dollars on the transaction. Holdbacks Allow "Invisible" Dealer Profits This holdback amount is "invisible" to the consumer because it does not appear as an itemized fee on the window sticker. For example, let's say you're interested in a Chevrolet with a Manufacturer's Suggested Retail Price (MSRP) of $20,500, including optional equipment and a $500 destination charge. Let's also say that dealer invoice on this hypothetical Chevy is $18,000. The cost of the car includes a dealer holdback that, in the case of all Chevy vehicles, amounts to 3% of the MSRP, or $600. (Note that the $500 destination charge should not be included when computing the holdback.) So, on this particular Chevy, the true dealer cost is actually $17,400. Even if the dealer sells you the car for the invoice price, which is unlikely, he would still be making as much as $600 on the deal (when his quarterly check from GM arrives). Dealer holdback allows dealers to advertise attractive sales. Often, ads promise that your new car will cost you just "$1 over/under invoice!" Almost all dealerships consider holdback money "sacred" and are unwilling to share any portion of it with the consumer. Don't push the issue. Your best strategy is to avoid mentioning the holdback during negotiations. Mention holdback only if the dealer gives you some song-and-dance about not making any money on the proposed deal when you know that isn't true. However, the standard dealer holdback is not the only form of financial assistance provided to dealers by manufacturers. There are many other types of holdbacks and dealer credits that may be available from specific manufacturers at various times — some of which consumers may hear about and others of which are never disclosed to the public — but each of which can have the effect of reducing the net cost of a vehicle to the dealer. These include: •Advertising credits •Flooring assistance •Floor interest reserve •Floor plan allowance •Transfer balance •Wholesale reserve •Wholesale credits Negotiate Using Incentives, Not HoldbacksIn addition, the dealer stands to reap further benefits if there is "dealer cash" being offered by the manufacturer on the car you are considering. In many instances you can learn about dealer cash in our Incentives and Rebates section. However, unless you know all of these other fees (and who does?), establishing the dealer's true cost can be frustratingly elusive. It's for this reason that Edmunds.com has established True Market Value® pricing that accurately reflects "what others are paying" by taking into account all of these fees. The Edmunds.com True Market Value Price® is the "bottom line" and what you really need to know in order to negotiate a fair deal. Check it out at: New car prices, new car reviews at Edmunds. In summary, holdback is nice to know, but is just one small piece of a complex puzzle.

08-13-2009, 02:18 PM	#2 (permalink)
alvinmathew88 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Irving, TX Posts: 268 Drives: 97 Civic Ex Coupe Rep Power: 18	Wow way to thread jack guys.... I think yal should make a section in this forum, for discussing how Dealerships should/do profit or run their business. Besides that i think yal should take this discussion elsewhere... even though i find your discussion very interesting...

08-13-2009, 02:19 PM	#3 (permalink)
edeeZee Track Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: s. cali, los angeles Posts: 627 Drives: 09 370z plat 6 speed Rep Power: 268	It's OK Hitech, no offense taken. But it's humorous to see the time and toil you took to write out your superfluous post. Is that you Davidyan? I didn't know vindication and having thin skin is the way you demonstrated not being able to handle another's disagreement. You think extraneous fluff is validating? Anyhows, I don't use "hearsay" to explain my points. I was in the car biz from '99-'02. You never mentioned whether you had direct experience, or if you read a lot of "how to negotiate a new car" tactic from outside sources. 1% per month to floor could've been likely during that era. The economy wasn't in shambles like today, and interest rates (controlled by the Feds) were probably a lot higher. Thus 12% a year then was probable. The $400K/month figure was casually given to me by my friend. It doesn't imply that it is a detailed figure EVERY MONTH, it was ballpark instead. Seriously, are you the auditor for this dealer? Then how do you know. How many VW's, Hyundai's or Lincolns did we move. The profit margins on all 3 brands vary. FYI, we moved primarily VW Jettas and Passats; Jettas had less then $1,500 profit typically, and Passats had around $1,700 on average. And you know what? We blew every unit out at invoice because VW's don't pull like crazy. This store was good, they paid the salesman $200 flats because if it was 20% after $500 pack, then they couldn't retain sales people. Like I said, there's nothing wrong with negotiating a deal. But trying to take all the meat off the bone is going to lead to dealer kicking you out. We live in a capitalistic society, if you don't like the deal, then you got the freedom to walk out, you're not under duress. BTW, I don't tip waiters nor waitresses who cop an attitude. I literally pay the bill and don't leave no change.