anyone getting MSRP (or below)

Hi-TecDesigns

Cj,

So you're suggesting I could probably get better than invoice if I find a hungry dealer and stand my ground? Good to know, but I would start to feel a bit guilty about dipping too low into his profit margin... I'm a business owner myself, and I'm fine with giving the dealers a reasonable amount of profit.

I knew the cube was/is pretty popular, and combined with the rarity of the green color, I figured if I could get it for invoice I was doing pretty well. That's why I was willing to offer up to $400 over invoice (even if half of that was eaten by the transportation), because I knew it wan't easy to find. I got lucky, or shall I say she got lucky.

I would still like to take another test drive to determine if my two main complaints (huge blind spot, possibly due to the sticker, and poor transmission shifting in manual mode, possibly due to inexperience with the specific vehicle) are still there. The blind spot is a pretty big deal, and I would hate to get the car and end up in an accident because I couldn't see to change lanes. If I can shake those two issues (and can work a good deal), I'll probably pick one up.

The on to the customization I don't think I'll spend as much on the Z as I spent on the S, however... full bodykits molded into the frame, custom candy paintjobs, powder coated frames, etc. I'm not sure I want to add up what I've put into the S to date, but I know I've enjoyed it Maybe now would be a good time to make it a turbo and keep the Z relatively stock.

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Cjanik

Yes you can. If you feel guilty, go ahead and pay a little over invoice. I personally see it this way - if you offered to pay MSRP, the dealer wont feel one bit guilty about ripping you off, and yet you feel guilty about them making minimal profit?

some people do, some people dont, Im just one of those guys who see's it "an eye for an eye", sort of. oh and BTW, i paid about 37500 for my 370z, invoice was 37300 or so. I actually thought I was paying 500 over but turns out the dealer ordered the Z with every option available (I told them no other options), and my price didnt change.

davidyan

I am a firm believer that businesses need to make a profit and have once been in the business of selling cars myself, getting paid based on a percentage of profit margin per vehicle. However, even from a business perspective, keep in mind, that the worst they can do is say no and send you shopping elsewhere. If they are willing to sell at invoice or below (trust me, they will), they obviously found the deal worthwhile for them and you shouldn't feel guilty. Both parties have the ability to walk from the deal at any point, at any price, for any reason. There's no shame in wanting to pay the lowest possible price and they will try likewise work you for the MSRP or even higher.

A car salesperson's greatest fear is that you will walk away from their lot without buying something. The reason is, there are so many dealers out there with essentially the same economic structure (costs, overhead, incentives, same models available) within a good 20 mile radius of each other. If you walk from one, and go to another, you will almost always get the deal. Therefore, by threatening to leave, they know right away they lost the deal and will try to do whatever they can to make it happen.

If you don't like shopping at 10 different lots and pitting them against each other, just go to one- tell them your price (I rec $500 - $1000) below invoice for the 370Z and stick to it. Tell them its your first place window shopping because you're bored and that if they want sell it to you right now without any further shopping, they have to give you that price. However, for anything more than your price, you will have to shop the deal and will get back to them next week. If they say its ridiculous, its not because many have bought the Z for that price- the market clearing prices for the 09's are already set in stone and they know it. There's nothing wrong or un-business like about the approach. Being the first time shopping for the Z, you either want that price now or, will shop more if they tell you its not doable just to be a smart consumer.

Hi-TecDesigns

I simply can't see this working, at least not with those figures. 2% holdback on a base/sport model is $640 (give or take). Unless that car has been sitting on their lot for 6 months and they believe they have no hope of getting rid of it any time soon (the interest is losing them money at this point), I can't see them saying "Sure, we'll let the car go for what we paid for it (or even less) and eat what we've paid in interest so far. We'll call it a learning experience" this isn't last year's Corolla that they need to dump because the new models have been on the lot for 3 months, this is a higher-end vehicle that is still in its current year (though fast approaching the end of it).

I certainly agree with the concept of what you are preaching, and if I was trying to buy that Corolla and knew what kind of leverage I had, I'd do it, but I don't think many would find themselves in a position to have that kind of leverage on a Z for at least another few months. I can imagine a dealer agreeing to $100-$200 below invoice if he is having a bad couple of months, but not below his holdback.

EDIT: I should add... I didn't mean to make anyone believe I had a problem with paying invoice... that's my target number, and I'm happy if I hit it. I'd only expect less than invoice in the case of the Corolla I mentioned. Would I take a deal at less than invoice if the dealer didn't bat an eye when it was offered? Sure, but I'm not going to brow beat the guy trying to get less than that.

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davidyan

Invoice price is a great deal as well. However, what I suggested is not only possible but has been done. I got 600 below invoice which is right at their breakeven after holdback. One person here got 1000 below indicating a loss for the dealer. There are quite a few buyers within the 500 - 1000 below invoice range which is why I thought it would be helpful for you to know.

Do whatever makes you feel comfortable. All this talk of "hot car" = higher price isn't always true either. When I worked as a salesman at Dodge during college, we had two Vipers. We sold one Viper at $10K below invoice with no dealer incentives other than the std holdback simply because it sat too long. The owner would yell at us each Saturday asking us why it wasn't sold. For the second one, another person came by thinking that because it was rare that MSRP was a great deal and paid just that (we even had a $20K markup sticker on top of the MSRP). Good thing he's probably rich enough as a Viper buyer to not have been impacted by the lost savings he could have had.

My dad bought an S-Class Mercedes at a time when the dot com boom happened and people in the Silicon Valley (where I'm from) were making tons of money left and right from IPOs. There were Mercedes all over the road. Even then, they sold it to him for $4K below invoice. The car business (dealer side) just has very low margins. Its their structure. They make up for it and still profit by:

- Volume Bonuses offered to the owner of the dealer: For ex, if a dealer sells X number of new cars in a month, the owner of the dealership will get a huge check from corporate. This is different BTW than customer incentives that they pass on to you. This makes up for the $400 he lost selling you the Z for $1000 below invoice (after roughly 600 holdback) worthwhile if he is close to hitting that target and just needs to sell a few more units. This is why people buy cars for far below invoice all the time.

- Selling extended warranties, service packages, paint sealant, etc.

- Financing

- Used car sales where they buy from auctions for dirt cheap. Also, with used cars, the customer never really knows what the dealer paid. Its not like new cars where you can look it up online.

- Trade ins.

- This next one is not a incentive but, a dealership owner could actually lose its ability to sell that brand if they consistently miss volume targets. This almost happened to my friends dealer where he worked as a salesman. They sold few new cars and mostly relied on used cars for revenue. Finally Chrysler (it was a Jeep dealer) told their owner that they would cut his dealer if he didnt start pushing volume. This happened by the way a couple years before the current auto crisis.

Hi-TecDesigns

Well, David, I went into a dealership last night with a renewed vigor, due in part to your post of people getting deals for less than invoice. I saw exactly what I wanted, in chicane yellow... the color is my favorite, but I was simply not willing to pay $500 for a color choice. In a nutshell, I told the sales manager I was willing to pay $300 of that $500 (essentially $200 below invoice), but the full $500 was out of the question as I would be happy with several other colors (none of which they had on the lot in the package I want).

It was obvious they would have accepted invoice, but they started to piss me off when they wanted to play hocus pocus with the numbers, continually asking me how much over invoice I wanted to pay (I couldn't have been more clear I was not going to pay a dime over invoice). Let's take a look at the kind of price crap they tried to pull with me, shall we? (Note: I knew exactly how much this vehicle and every option cost them for invoice, not assuming any extra dealer-specific bonuses for good customer feedback to Nissan corporate and such, which only helps them)

1) Showing me invoice price plus destination, calling that invoice, and trying to convince me that price was what I was calling invoice in my original calculations, making it appear as if I undercalculated the vehicle's value by $700+.
2) Taking my "out the door price" offer and working backwards to what they claimed I was actually offering them (any astute person knows that 6% tax on price 'X' is not the same as 6% of price 'X'+tax, a mathematical sleight of hand which makes it look like I'm offering about $120 less than what I really am). I'm an engineer that calculates pi to 50 places in my head without breaking a sweat, so don't pull that BS on me.
3) Pointing to my offer price and showing how much lower than MSRP it is. Well, duh!
4) Throwing out multiple figures while I'm trying to calculate in my head what each option is worth, even after asking for a minute to do just that in peace and quiet. You may make me lose count, but that just means I'm going to start from the beginning again, and now you've succeeded in pissing me off.
5) Trying to tell me the dealership would be losing money on the deal, especially right after I finished telling them I knew exactly how much profit they were making in holdback and "processing" fees (about $550).
6) Telling me how "hot" this car is and how selling it at that price would be crazy for such a great-selling car, leading me to shoot back with:
a) 2010s will be on your lot in a month and a half
b) This car has been on your lot for a while now (costing you, I bet, about $25/wk in lost profit)
c) upcoming models are 40th anniversary, meaning new colors (like black cherry) and custom badging
7) Other minor crap not worth mentioning, but still annoying, nonetheless.

In the end we couldn't make a deal, so I shook his hand, thanked him and the sales guy for their time, and hopped back in our new Cube and drove home. The search will continue today. Current deals end August 3rd, none of which include the 370Z, so hopefully we'll see some incentives show up after the new deal cycle kicks in.

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Cjanik

sounds like the dealer tried to get you, maybe called your bluff. You should wait a couple days then go back to the same guy, he will now know your willing to walk away again and might just "want to get it over with".

Also wanted to mention, there is a factory charge called destination charge which the dealer must pay. it is not really negotiable - because thats the price it cost to ship it from japan.

Dont take their BS about how 370z's are selling like hotcakes, thats total BS, my dealer has only sold 1 370z in the last 2 months and they have 8 370z's

I gotta say it sounded like you did a good job negotiating. Dont give up yet!

Hi-TecDesigns

I intend to wait until after the 3rd (Monday) has passed... the current incentives (unfortunately on just about every car but the 370Z) are good until then, so hopefully starting with the 4th a whole new batch of incentives will be in place. It's their last chance to get older cars off of the lot before the new ones start rolling on.
If you notice in the first numbered item I mention the destination charge. I know it exists, that it's non-negotiable, and its exact amount. I'm sure to include it in my calculations.
I made a reasonable attempt given my level of patience and energy level that day. I'll keep this particular car in mind if I don't find another one I like, but I'm not holding it out as the only one left.



As far as negotiations went, this was the breakdown:
1) With available options and destination, invoice on vehicle was $33,179
2) Add tax, we're up to $35,170
3) I initially offered $34,900 out the door, which started the lesson in mathematics
4) I came up to $200 below invoice, adding another $70, mainly to keep the math simple and prevent any more mind games (it's easier to say "I'll pay $200 below invoice" than "My final offer is $xx, xxxx")
5) No deal.

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