The next gen Z!

lemon-fresh · 12-12-2012, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dustin@Z1

My concern about the next gen Z is this....

Look back at all Z's produced PRIOR to the 370Z. In all of the marketing and ads, the names were referred to as the ***Z (insert favorite model). They referred to the 350Z as the 350Z and the 300ZX and the 300ZX. But look at the all of the marketing materials for the 370Z. Nissan does not refer to it as the 370Z, they instead call it just the "Z".

This is not a very BIG thing, but if you pay attenion to Nissan's nomenclature. The *** (300, 370, 240) indicated engine displacement. If Nissan were to release a 1.8L Turbo 4-banger (based on the Juke engine), then it would be referred to as a 180Z. This would be HUGE since it would be the first time Nissan decreased engine displacement and would not follow tradition. However, if Nissan were to install a 2.4L turbo engine and called it a 240Z, it would have puriest outraged that they are attempting to redo the classic '70s 240Z.

With this said, if Nissan conviently DROPS the *** numerical nomenclature from the title and just refers to the model as the "Z". They can stuff whatever engine they want into the chassis and most people would not care (except the Z purests).

I vote Nissan breaks the mold and goes a performance oriented NA VK56-based V8. Make it the Mustang GT/ Camaro SS killer priced accordingly. This would allow it to be powered LOWER than the flagship GT-R, makes additional power, and would really excite the aftermarket with parts by having one of the first widely available V8-powered sports cars from Japan. Nissan has put a lot of effort in developing the VK56 engine both in V8 Supercars and the LeMans racing series around the world. The only missing part of the equation is stuffing it into a performance oriented chassis.

V8 would be pretty cool. Anything but another turbo 4banger.

SS_Firehawk · 12-12-2012, 04:00 PM

Lol@Dustin. A VK56VD would really turn the Z into a beast. The two model theme can make a comeback by maintaining the VQ. That would be a serious one two punch. I would sell my Z for a VK56 powered one.

I still see it as a pipe dream unfortunately.

RoshDawg · 12-12-2012, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Yeah but the base 911 is till 3.8litre 400N/A HP which can sustain power longer through the revs with way more continuous torque than a 2.4 l4. the 911 would still be a sub 4 second to 60mph car while the porsche cayman would get 4.4 sec to 60 ONLY with the sport chrono package. Without it, specs sound like a 4.7 to 4.9 sprint. The 911 went through "They cayman is better from 2007-2012" anyway. Many felt though the cayman was slower, it was a truer sports car. Regardless, the 911 is still considered legendary.

Cayman S has a 3.4L flat 6, 325HP, 0-60 4.7s
Base 911 has a 3.4L flat 6, 350HP, 0-60 4.6s
Torque curves are about the same, as well as same redline.

Sorry for derailing this thread!

JungleZ · 12-12-2012, 04:22 PM

I guess I'm the only who saw the jay Leno visit to Nissan where that old guy basically says we're going lighter and more gas savings in mind..

cavemancan · 12-12-2012, 04:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

I wouldn't call it a shoe string budget, it was worked in secret before upper management got wind of what was cooking.For a company the size of Mazda, I would consider it a hefty sum. It's true components of the chassis and it's design are shared with the Miata, but I wouldn't go so far as to call it the same platform, hence why the chassis designations aren't the same.. The FM platform is used on the Z, G, M, and FX vehicles. Vastly different in size to a 2500lbs Miata. Nissan is only on it's 2nd generation with the platform, it really isn't that old and would most likely prefer to have it play host to another generation of vehicles. Every vehicle using the FM platform has received very positive feedback with regards to the bones.

They did indeed do some of the work in secret but that hardly goes on the books. As far as platform...the relationship of the Miata and Rx8 platforms are in relation as the Z, G, M...etc. They are stretched versions on the original dude. If you've ever seen the under carrage of an Rx8 and MX-5 Miata you will see an identical chasis. Everything is the same with the exception of the drive shaft length. It has been frequently cited in being a stretched Miata chasis hence the similar chasis characteristics on the road. I will not deny that it is a stretch to hope Nissan redesigns the Z platform into a new chasis designation to be shared with the Infinity G as well but can you deny this would be ideal for us as consumers regardless what risks to Nissan. I'm dreaming here I know.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

The VQ designation is a bit long in the tooth, but the engines now only share very basic design elements with the original VQ engines. They have evolved at least once every model generation. Nissan is going to tap that thing out until it's just not competitive. It is the highest performing NA V6 on the market. Even amongst all these brand new engines, it stands above the rest in terms of performance. NVH, different matter

I like the VQ...I do...I'm impressed with it. Makes tones of efficient power with a near perfect torque line (not curve cause the thing is flat as hell). With that said the speculation here is that they are changing the engine. If that is the case then what would make sense? Hence my answer.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Back the RX-8 (I really like the 09-11 redesign and came close to purchasing one). Torque is the real determining factor to when things break. Torque is the amount of force that is applied, not the actual speed of the movement (that's hp). I admit not knowing the full picture with the RX-8 drivetrain, but it really was designed around the characteristics of the Renesis engine. Take a look at how light and small components for Formula cars are! They don't make a lot of torque, but they make a lot of hp. Mazda will only overbuild it to a point, just like every other manufacturer. I don't think anyone would prefer a structurally weaker drivetrain as a cost for weight savings. That really handicaps the aftermarket community.

I know what torque is LMAO! Check this out...you think torque kills drive train? What do you think a transmission spinning 3 times the speed your engine is rated at will do? The rotary has 3 combustion cycles (you know that...dang dorritoes) so a rotary's tranny, drive shaft, and rear end will effectively spin 3 times that of a normal piston varient. Those forces will tear apart a normal transmission and rear end. Hell the Rx8 comes stock with a carbon fiber driveshaft. Now envission it handling a 3 rotor with much more power at those rpms. Put that drive train in a non modified piston engine and it will take the torque just fine (depending how much of course). The reason for the components to be light on a Formula car is two fold. 1) Hi revs need light components to aid in vibration resistance and 2) well cause...less weight is faster. As far as structually weaker it's not. For instance the carbon fiber drive shaft is in fact stronger then most stock shafts. I know what your saying man but the argument does not hold merrit in this case/compareson.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

And BTW, thank you for keeping it clean. Even if we disagree on things, I think it's irritating when someone gets butt hurt when someone else challenges their view.

Your lucky I'm lazy...I have a Butthurt meme that is AWESOME!!!

cavemancan · 12-12-2012, 04:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by JungleZ

I guess I'm the only who saw the jay Leno visit to Nissan where that old guy basically says we're going lighter and more gas savings in mind..

No Dude I saw it too which is why I am saying everything I've said thus far. Yet everyone is spewing v8 comments. Nissan can't make a v8 powered Z handle that well with the current budget. It's a step in the wrong direction. A properly configured chasis and engine combo will kill porsche in the pockets and that should be Nissan's goal. Light weight, knimble, powerful, and bang for buck. Adding a heavy engine only makes muscle car dudes happy. Adding a powerful smaller engine wins races of all kinds.

fullmonty · 12-12-2012, 05:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavemancan

A properly configured chasis and engine combo will kill porsche in the pockets and that should be Nissan's goal. Light weight, knimble, powerful, and bang for buck. Adding a heavy engine only makes muscle car dudes happy. Adding a powerful smaller engine wins races of all kinds.

Agreed 100%. We don't need a V8 in this car. A light powerful V6 would be great. Don't get me wrong I love V8s but I don't think I'd love one in my Z. If I had wanted a V8 car that has similar performance to our current Z I would have bought a Mustang.

cavemancan · 12-12-2012, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fullmonty

Agreed 100%. We don't need a V8 in this car. A light powerful V6 would be great. Don't get me wrong I love V8s but I don't think I'd love one in my Z. If I had wanted a V8 car that has similar performance to our current Z I would have bought a Mustang.

I'm not a Mustang fan. It took them 4 billion years to get rid of the live axcel and when they did they practically charge corvette money for it. Puke-A-Licious

Truth be told if Nissan does not shock and awe me I will be getting a used Porsche or BMW M3 next. I would rather have an affordable racer though but we shall see.

fullmonty · 12-12-2012, 06:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cavemancan

I'm not a Mustang fan. It took them 4 billion years to get rid of the live axcel and when they did they practically charge corvette money for it. Puke-A-Licious

Truth be told if Nissan does not shock and awe me I will be getting a used Porsche or BMW M3 next. I would rather have an affordable racer though but we shall see.

Ditto, I'm pretty happy with the power and handling but I'm far from a racer or anything like that. But unless the next gen. Z is something outstanding I'll be going to BMW or even possibly a Mustang again.

SS_Firehawk · 12-13-2012, 01:25 AM

You all are insane if you bought this car and didn't think it's outstanding, or you already bought the wrong car for you. And you cannot possibly be serious about a V8 not being able to fulfill the role of powering this vehicle. Let me just shake this down for you

The VK56VD is an already built and engineered direct injected and running VVEL. It's sitting in trucks and luxury cars in a very detuned state. The power curve is comical when compared to any NA V8 it squares off against (Coyote ,Tau, LSx). What you guys want in a Turbo V6, that motor does in spades. All of this cheap modifications for power your talking about? It's easy pickings when you mod a V8, let alone a 5.6 liter. That torque you've all been moaning about, yea, it's all there, off idle, no lag, no waiting for turbo's. In a 3800lbs-4,000lbs car, it's already getting 26mpg.

These last few posts were just comical. You all fail to realize some of the best sports cars in the world use V8's, they don't turn into Mustangs because it had one. It won't weigh any more than the turbo's and intercoolers you want to put on.

There really is not a replacement for displacement when it comes to performance. Turbo's? Put that on the VK56VD and watch it make 600+whp with less than 5psi. Oh you don't want turbo's on it? Some bolt on's and it should easily push 500whp without touching the motor.

This thing made 380whp and it didn't even get to redline! Lost cause man.
I give up, I'm talking to a lost cause. It's like that bum you try to help and he is so f@cked up in the head, he can't comprehend your helping him. That's how I feel. (Not like the bum lol)

Last time I checked, the Vettes are dominating GT class races on a detuned motor. <<<

__________________

Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI
New Car: Under Construction

Last edited by SS_Firehawk; 12-13-2012 at 01:31 AM.

peleincubus · 12-13-2012, 01:40 AM

i have read the entire thread. thanks for the all the info.

the question i have though what are the signs of when this may come out? i would assume no sooner then mid 2014 to somewhere around the end of 2015.

sounds like a long time away

: (

SS_Firehawk · 12-13-2012, 01:52 AM

Not for a few years.

Link the dyno's I'm referring to from Edmonds Inside line that were done, all on the same dyno.

M56 vs Coyote

TAU, LS3,Coyote

THIS IS THE BEST OPTION OF THE 3, though I feel it probably won't happen.

b1adesofcha0s · 12-13-2012, 07:45 AM

V8 Z would be bad azz and would make me consider getting another Z next instead of the next gen 5.0 or C7. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Nissan modify the VQ37 a bit and just stick that in the new Z. Give it DI or something for a little bit more power/fuel efficiency and be done with it.

edub370 · 12-13-2012, 07:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Back the RX-8 (I really like the 09-11 redesign and came close to purchasing one). Torque is the real determining factor to when things break. Torque is the amount of force that is applied, not the actual speed of the movement (that's hp). I admit not knowing the full picture with the RX-8 drivetrain, but it really was designed around the characteristics of the Renesis engine. Take a look at how light and small components for Formula cars are! They don't make a lot of torque, but they make a lot of hp. Mazda will only overbuild it to a point, just like every other manufacturer. I don't think anyone would prefer a structurally weaker drivetrain as a cost for weight savings. That really handicaps the aftermarket community.

I will disagree. I think the rx8's rotary has been one of the worst engines in the last 20 years. How can u make an engine that makes no torque, no real power, burns oil, AND gets crap gas mileage? HOW?? Just when u start getting a hint of power, u are out of revs. Couple that with the fact that it needs to be slightly revved when shutting down to prevent flooding (engine tear down) and the rebuild intervals are at least 2 times more frequent than a normal engine, just makes it an AWFUL engine.

Chteelers · 12-13-2012, 08:20 AM

When in the entire history of automobiles has the next generation of a popular, long running model ever made the huge performance leap you V8-promotors are suggesting? Suddenly going from 330hp to 500hp? That's completely absurd.

A jump to 360 or 380, maybe even to 400hp would be more than plenty. Remember that we all bought the Z for its handling prowess. Higher output engines require stronger chassis (more weight), more cooling (more weight), more NVH damping (more weight), stronger driveline components (more weight), the list goes on. Of course all those can be overcome with more expensive engineering (ala Porsche 911, Corvette, etc), but that takes the Z into a class above the $30K market.

12-12-2012, 04:00 PM	#107 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7334	Lol@Dustin. A VK56VD would really turn the Z into a beast. The two model theme can make a comeback by maintaining the VQ. That would be a serious one two punch. I would sell my Z for a VK56 powered one. I still see it as a pipe dream unfortunately. Dustin@Z1 likes this. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

12-13-2012, 01:52 AM	#117 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7334	Not for a few years. Link the dyno's I'm referring to from Edmonds Inside line that were done, all on the same dyno. M56 vs Coyote TAU, LS3,Coyote THIS IS THE BEST OPTION OF THE 3, though I feel it probably won't happen. __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

12-13-2012, 07:45 AM	#118 (permalink)
b1adesofcha0s A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: MD Posts: 40,963 Drives: HypeTrain Choo Choo! Rep Power: 141	V8 Z would be bad azz and would make me consider getting another Z next instead of the next gen 5.0 or C7. Honestly, it wouldn't surprise me at all to see Nissan modify the VQ37 a bit and just stick that in the new Z. Give it DI or something for a little bit more power/fuel efficiency and be done with it. __________________ Project: b1adeZmobile (2009 370Z) \| Uprev Tune by AAM Competition \| Berk Exhaust Project: b1adeZmobile 2.0 (2014 C7 Z51) \| Corsa Xtreme Exhaust

12-13-2012, 08:20 AM	#120 (permalink)
Chteelers Base Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Charlotte Posts: 63 Drives: '11 Nissan 370Z M6 Rep Power: 13	When in the entire history of automobiles has the next generation of a popular, long running model ever made the huge performance leap you V8-promotors are suggesting? Suddenly going from 330hp to 500hp? That's completely absurd. A jump to 360 or 380, maybe even to 400hp would be more than plenty. Remember that we all bought the Z for its handling prowess. Higher output engines require stronger chassis (more weight), more cooling (more weight), more NVH damping (more weight), stronger driveline components (more weight), the list goes on. Of course all those can be overcome with more expensive engineering (ala Porsche 911, Corvette, etc), but that takes the Z into a class above the $30K market. cavemancan likes this.

12-12-2012, 04:22 PM	#109 (permalink)
JungleZ Banned Join Date: Aug 2012 Location: orange county,ca Posts: 652 Drives: leased base z... Rep Power: 0	I guess I'm the only who saw the jay Leno visit to Nissan where that old guy basically says we're going lighter and more gas savings in mind..

12-13-2012, 01:25 AM	#115 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk Premium Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7334	You all are insane if you bought this car and didn't think it's outstanding, or you already bought the wrong car for you. And you cannot possibly be serious about a V8 not being able to fulfill the role of powering this vehicle. Let me just shake this down for you The VK56VD is an already built and engineered direct injected and running VVEL. It's sitting in trucks and luxury cars in a very detuned state. The power curve is comical when compared to any NA V8 it squares off against (Coyote ,Tau, LSx). What you guys want in a Turbo V6, that motor does in spades. All of this cheap modifications for power your talking about? It's easy pickings when you mod a V8, let alone a 5.6 liter. That torque you've all been moaning about, yea, it's all there, off idle, no lag, no waiting for turbo's. In a 3800lbs-4,000lbs car, it's already getting 26mpg. These last few posts were just comical. You all fail to realize some of the best sports cars in the world use V8's, they don't turn into Mustangs because it had one. It won't weigh any more than the turbo's and intercoolers you want to put on. There really is not a replacement for displacement when it comes to performance. Turbo's? Put that on the VK56VD and watch it make 600+whp with less than 5psi. Oh you don't want turbo's on it? Some bolt on's and it should easily push 500whp without touching the motor. This thing made 380whp and it didn't even get to redline! Lost cause man. I give up, I'm talking to a lost cause. It's like that bum you try to help and he is so f@cked up in the head, he can't comprehend your helping him. That's how I feel. (Not like the bum lol) Last time I checked, the Vettes are dominating GT class races on a detuned motor. <<< __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction Last edited by SS_Firehawk; 12-13-2012 at 01:31 AM.

12-13-2012, 01:40 AM	#116 (permalink)
peleincubus Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2012 Location: Austin, tx Posts: 255 Drives: PW 14' 370Z Rep Power: 13	i have read the entire thread. thanks for the all the info. the question i have though what are the signs of when this may come out? i would assume no sooner then mid 2014 to somewhere around the end of 2015. sounds like a long time away : (