state police behind me and got towed, yay love fuel starve!

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-08-2012, 12:39 PM

Would an aftermatket fuel pump system at least minimize how catastrophic this issue is?

SeattleLion · 05-08-2012, 03:07 PM

I've heard of this on the track, but never on the road. I have a 2010 and have driven it well under a quarter tank (to 3 dots as I recall) with no fuel starvation and I do take on ramps and off ramps at 60+. On the track I always keep the tank over 1/2 since fuel starvation regularly occurs there to many Z drivers...generally at 1/4 tank or less.

What bothers me about this story is the inability to restart once the car was at rest. The fuel pump should have been able to draw gas then. If the OC tried 40 times as he said, then even with an annoying sump in the pump (nice rhyme there), gas should have made it to the engine.

I wonder if there may have been water accumulating in the bottom of the tank. That condition might account for failure to start until gas was added and things got stirred up. Maybe some Drigas?

I have been waiting for this to happen to me since I use only ethynol-free fuel (better mileage and performance for me). Without the additive, water can build up. So far no sign of it (driven well over 10,000 miles on this fuel).

Anyway, the problem may not be classic fuel starvation caused by the turn. It could be that the gas takeup in the tank is too high, maybe water down at the bottom, etc. It could make sense to go get it checked out.

red6spd · 05-08-2012, 04:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Cool? What are you trying to prove? I'm not arguing the design of the tank but the fact that some people have the issue some dont. Why do some Z's have Oil consumption issues and some dont? Thats denial as well Huh Red?

Red__Zed · 05-08-2012, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

Cool? What are you trying to prove? I'm not arguing the design of the tank but the fact that some people have the issue some dont. Why do some Z's have Oil consumption issues and some dont? Thats denial as well Huh Red?

It's not a "some cars" issue, it is a "some drivers" issue.

Anyone who looks at the tank can see the issue. It is a fundamental design flaw that created issues for anyone who drives hard. It is not at all similar to issues like oil consumption, which is going to be hit or miss

red6spd · 05-08-2012, 04:57 PM

Well if it takes the perfect combination of factors to make it happen then I'm cool with that. It has never happen to me and what seems like many other people on this forum while driving on the street. I have done what the OP describes many many times with much less fuel in the tank. I have also never had an issue with the fuel gauge being inaccurate. Can you explain that problem as well?

Red__Zed · 05-08-2012, 05:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

Well if it takes the perfect combination of factors to make it happen then I'm cool with that. It has never happen to me and what seems like many other people on this forum while driving on the street. I have done what the OP describes many many times with much less fuel in the tank. I have also never had an issue with the fuel gauge being inaccurate. Can you explain that problem as well?

Gauge is a sensor issue. Not at all related.

Nobody is contending that the fuel starve is going to be a problem for everyone....if that's what you are reading, try removing the chip from your shoulder and reading again.

It is an issue for anyone that wants to get on the gas out of a long, fast right turn. Most of the time when you see it on the street people are really dogging it, or you have something funky like a reverse banked turn. Even then, street starve is usually at a much lower fuel level than I would ever let my car get to.

Mike · 05-08-2012, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleLion

I've heard of this on the track, but never on the road. I have a 2010 and have driven it well under a quarter tank (to 3 dots as I recall) with no fuel starvation and I do take on ramps and off ramps at 60+. On the track I always keep the tank over 1/2 since fuel starvation regularly occurs there to many Z drivers...generally at 1/4 tank or less.

What bothers me about this story is the inability to restart once the car was at rest. The fuel pump should have been able to draw gas then. If the OC tried 40 times as he said, then even with an annoying sump in the pump (nice rhyme there), gas should have made it to the engine.

I wonder if there may have been water accumulating in the bottom of the tank. That condition might account for failure to start until gas was added and things got stirred up. Maybe some Drigas?

I have been waiting for this to happen to me since I use only ethynol-free fuel (better mileage and performance for me). Without the additive, water can build up. So far no sign of it (driven well over 10,000 miles on this fuel).

Anyway, the problem may not be classic fuel starvation caused by the turn. It could be that the gas takeup in the tank is too high, maybe water down at the bottom, etc. It could make sense to go get it checked out.

I'm just taking a guess here, but I think once the pump goes dry, it shuts down the fuel system thinking the tank is empty. I know when I got towed off of Road Atlanta, I indicated empty and the car wouldn't start. After putting two gallons in, it went back to 3/4 full, so maybe there is no way for the fuel to get back to the other side once everything shuts down.

julianpayne · 05-09-2012, 04:27 PM

Guys, I can tell you that I've experienced this but under HARD driving conditions. Turn 17 at Sebring will have you taking a HARD right (almost 90+ mph), and anything under less than half will cause the issue. It's happen to me twice (on seperate occasions) already. It just so happens that a local show here in Tampa has a solution. As for street driving goes it has never happened to me (Luckily I don't do 90 mph on off ramps), but I do intend on tracking my car at least 4-5 times a year. So a solution will be put into place before my next track day.

The car runs lighter on 1/2 to 1/4 tank full on the track!

Augustus · 05-09-2012, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

. . .I am more mad at the fact that I was stranded because the design was so poor that it takes HOURS for fuel to leak back to the other side. It's one thing for a quick stutter or two, it's another to be sitting on the side of the road waiting for a tow truck.
. . .

Rightfully so. I'd be pissed too.

I don't understand the design of the fuel tank. I get it that it goes over the transmission, so there are two sides to the tank.

So how does fuel get from one side of the "saddle" to the other, anyway? I understand that cornering forces would drive fuel to one side or the other, potentially away from the fuel pickups. Does the fuel have some way of leveling back out, other than a hard turn the other way? Are there two fuel pickups; one on each side? Otherwise you could be driving around with fuel in one half and the other half empty, leading to wacko gauge readings and fuel starvation.

cossie1600 · 05-09-2012, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by UNKNOWN_370

Would an aftermatket fuel pump system at least minimize how catastrophic this issue is?

Not exactly. It's not a problem with the pump, it's a problem with the bracket holding the pump (reserve cup being too small) and a bad gas tank that allows gas to slosh to the California side.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SeattleLion

Anyway, the problem may not be classic fuel starvation caused by the turn. It could be that the gas takeup in the tank is too high, maybe water down at the bottom, etc. It could make sense to go get it checked out.

It's my first time hitting it off the track too, but this is my first time not being able to restart my car unlike a hick up like I had at the track. It's definitely not water, no sign combustion at the exhaust and you can just hear there is no gas.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

It's not a "some cars" issue, it is a "some drivers" issue.
Anyone who looks at the tank can see the issue. It is a fundamental design flaw that created issues for anyone who drives hard. It is not at all similar to issues like oil consumption, which is going to be hit or miss

100% agree.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

I'm just taking a guess here, but I think once the pump goes dry, it shuts down the fuel system thinking the tank is empty. I know when I got towed off of Road Atlanta, I indicated empty and the car wouldn't start. After putting two gallons in, it went back to 3/4 full, so maybe there is no way for the fuel to get back to the other side once everything shuts down.

I don't think it shut down the fuel system because there were a few times where the car "attempted" to fire. My best restart had me idling at 400RPM for about five secs. Problem went away as soon as I loaded it with gas. If I recall correctly, the fuel pump is fed by a combination of a vacuum tube sucking gas back in from the other side (no start=no vacuum). Correct me if i am wrong on this.

Quote:

Originally Posted by julianpayne

Guys, I can tell you that I've experienced this but under HARD driving conditions. Turn 17 at Sebring will have you taking a HARD right (almost 90+ mph), and anything under less than half will cause the issue. It's happen to me twice (on seperate occasions) already.

I hit the fuel starve at the track at 3/4 of a tank at 60mph. When I hit it last Friday, I never got past 70mph....

Quote:

Originally Posted by Augustus

So how does fuel get from one side of the "saddle" to the other, anyway? I understand that cornering forces would drive fuel to one side or the other, potentially away from the fuel pickups. Does the fuel have some way of leveling back out, other than a hard turn the other way? Are there two fuel pickups; one on each side? Otherwise you could be driving around with fuel in one half and the other half empty, leading to wacko gauge readings and fuel starvation.

See my response for Mike, it's a vacuum that sucks gas back to the right side, where the fuel pump is. The fuel sending unit is on the left side, hence the weird readings you get after hard turns sometimes. I also believe there is a fuel sending unit on the right side (correct me if i am wrong), but i am not 100% sure on that. The gas tank has basically 3 holes, one for the fuel hose nozzle, one for the fuel pump assembley and one for the fuel sending unit. If you want to do any physical work inside, you have to go through one of the three hole. This is why it is so difficult to get a fixed for us and so easy to do it at Nissan since they can simply retool the inners of the gas tank to prevent fuel from sloshing or redesigning the fuel pump bracket/reserve cup to make it bigger.

There is a guy that is supposed to be working on it, but it's been a while and I am not even sure if I want to spend $1000 on whatever fix either. If he doesn't come up with a fix, the shop that designed my trailer hitch will probably start getting into the car to see if there is any fix for it. I have to be honest, it's not going to be an easy or cheap fix, we probably have to wait for Nissan to send a revision to the tank or the pump or maybe a recall.....

mantella87 · 05-09-2012, 10:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by red6spd

Cool? What are you trying to prove? I'm not arguing the design of the tank but the fact that some people have the issue some dont. Why do some Z's have Oil consumption issues and some dont? Thats denial as well Huh Red?

I don't really agree with hostility being aimed at this car either for the few (often very inconvenient) problems it may have, but comparing fuel starve to oil consumption is "apples to oranges."

Footloose301 · 05-10-2012, 07:18 AM

FWIW I was hard on the car this past weekend doing some Auto-X, and my instructor was even harder and I had less than 1/2 tank and never had this issue. I have yet to see fuel starvation and I've take the on-ramp to North I-75 from Daniels Pkwy really hard, like really hard and never had an issue, but I don't look at my gas gauge so perhaps I had plenty of fuel.

m4a1mustang · 05-10-2012, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Footloose301

FWIW I was hard on the car this past weekend doing some Auto-X, and my instructor was even harder and I had less than 1/2 tank and never had this issue. I have yet to see fuel starvation and I've take the on-ramp to North I-75 from Daniels Pkwy really hard, like really hard and never had an issue, but I don't look at my gas gauge so perhaps I had plenty of fuel.

Remember dude, it has to be hard and long.

b1adesofcha0s · 05-10-2012, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Remember dude, it has to be hard and long.

That's what she said

RedNismoZ · 05-10-2012, 09:16 AM

It happened to me once, but now I can keep driving till one bar.

05-08-2012, 04:57 PM	#80 (permalink)
red6spd A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Long Island NY Posts: 3,277 Drives: 2010 Z Coupe M6 SPT Rep Power: 21	Well if it takes the perfect combination of factors to make it happen then I'm cool with that. It has never happen to me and what seems like many other people on this forum while driving on the street. I have done what the OP describes many many times with much less fuel in the tank. I have also never had an issue with the fuel gauge being inaccurate. Can you explain that problem as well? __________________ 2010 Base+Sport 6spd: Stillen G3, FI Non-Resonated CBE, FI Non-Resonated Test Pipes, UpRev Tuned, Custom 24R Oil Cooler, JDM Rear Fog-OEM Harness. ???Whp ???WTQ (Will find out come spring time)

05-09-2012, 04:27 PM	#83 (permalink)
julianpayne Base Member Join Date: Nov 2010 Location: Tampa, FL Posts: 36 Drives: 2010 370Z WH M6 T/S Rep Power: 14	Guys, I can tell you that I've experienced this but under HARD driving conditions. Turn 17 at Sebring will have you taking a HARD right (almost 90+ mph), and anything under less than half will cause the issue. It's happen to me twice (on seperate occasions) already. It just so happens that a local show here in Tampa has a solution. As for street driving goes it has never happened to me (Luckily I don't do 90 mph on off ramps), but I do intend on tracking my car at least 4-5 times a year. So a solution will be put into place before my next track day. The car runs lighter on 1/2 to 1/4 tank full on the track! __________________ Julian Payne 2010 White/Perm 370Z Touring/Sport

05-10-2012, 07:18 AM	#87 (permalink)
Footloose301 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 2,659 Drives: 40th Rep Power: 21	FWIW I was hard on the car this past weekend doing some Auto-X, and my instructor was even harder and I had less than 1/2 tank and never had this issue. I have yet to see fuel starvation and I've take the on-ramp to North I-75 from Daniels Pkwy really hard, like really hard and never had an issue, but I don't look at my gas gauge so perhaps I had plenty of fuel. __________________ 2010 40th Anniversary 370Z

05-10-2012, 09:16 AM	#90 (permalink)
RedNismoZ Enthusiast Member Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Lexington, SC Posts: 429 Drives: a broken Nismo. Rep Power: 13	It happened to me once, but now I can keep driving till one bar. __________________ Nismo or no go

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05-08-2012, 12:39 PM	#76 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14857	Would an aftermatket fuel pump system at least minimize how catastrophic this issue is?

05-08-2012, 03:07 PM	#77 (permalink)
SeattleLion Base Member Join Date: Sep 2010 Location: Seattle WA Posts: 226 Drives: '13 Mustang GT Prem. Rep Power: 233	I've heard of this on the track, but never on the road. I have a 2010 and have driven it well under a quarter tank (to 3 dots as I recall) with no fuel starvation and I do take on ramps and off ramps at 60+. On the track I always keep the tank over 1/2 since fuel starvation regularly occurs there to many Z drivers...generally at 1/4 tank or less. What bothers me about this story is the inability to restart once the car was at rest. The fuel pump should have been able to draw gas then. If the OC tried 40 times as he said, then even with an annoying sump in the pump (nice rhyme there), gas should have made it to the engine. I wonder if there may have been water accumulating in the bottom of the tank. That condition might account for failure to start until gas was added and things got stirred up. Maybe some Drigas? I have been waiting for this to happen to me since I use only ethynol-free fuel (better mileage and performance for me). Without the additive, water can build up. So far no sign of it (driven well over 10,000 miles on this fuel). Anyway, the problem may not be classic fuel starvation caused by the turn. It could be that the gas takeup in the tank is too high, maybe water down at the bottom, etc. It could make sense to go get it checked out.