Was looking to possibly buy a Shelby

ImportConvert · 07-29-2011, 05:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

I agree with the fact that LSx engines are amazing and they make tons of power...but you gotta also take into consideration the measure of efficiency. The z06 requires 7L to make 505 or 72hp/L. The 370z for example...89hp/L and thats with two less cylinders. Exactly. 2 less sources of parasitic loss. Good luck making a 7.0L V6 that revs to 7Krpm reliably over and over.

For the sake of comparison --The 2012 GT-R makes 530hp from a 3.8L TTV6 - 140hp/L. Which is still a lot less total power than the much lighter LS9. Yawn. Winning > Mental masturbation.

So yeah, the LS engines are cheap and reliable...but you can see that dreamer is right in saying there is a LOT left on the table simply because they are "old" designs. If the 370Z had a 7L V8 with the technology of the current 3.7L V6....then by doing some ricer math....you're looking at 620hp from a V6 and close to 700 from the V8. Well stay tuned. GM went from a 440# 405bhp LS6 to a 450# 505bhp LS7. Lets see what the C7Z is about...I bet it still uses 16 valves and 1 cam.

I dont think he's trying to argue that its not a great engine or that it doesnt win races....but he's completely right in saying the older technology is nowhere as efficient as the new. It is VERY efficient. The BSFC of the LS7 and LS3 are very good considering the power they make.

Well, since we are using ricer math, how about we crunch the numbers this way?

The VQ37 weighs about 370# and is 3.7L, that is 100# per liter. The LS7 is 7L and weighs 450#. That is 64# per liter. So for Nissan to have a 7.0L V8, it would weigh like 650#.

That's about the same logic as what you are using, just seen from my angle.

GM is ABLE to use massive displacement and maintain small size and low weight BECAUSE of the technology they have. Who cares when it came out? If it were the new thing you would be humping its leg. The only reason you don't like it is because it's been around for a long time.

Also factor in cost. The VQ37 and LS3 go for similar prices, yet the LS3 offers so much more performance. Also has a better warranty.

Technology is great, but as Mercedes AMG shows us, even a 4-valve, quad-cam, cutting-edge setup will only make a few more HP (about 50) than an LS7, has displacement/size limitations greater than the LS7, and costs 4 times as much.

toner123 · 07-29-2011, 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Well, since we are using ricer math, how about we crunch the numbers this way?

The VQ37 weighs about 370# and is 3.7L, that is 100# per liter. The LS7 is 7L and weighs 450#. That is 64# per liter. So for Nissan to have a 7.0L V8, it would weigh like 650#.

That's about the same logic as what you are using, just seen from my angle.

GM is ABLE to use massive displacement and maintain small size and low weight BECAUSE of the technology they have. Who cares when it came out? If it were the new thing you would be humping its leg. The only reason you don't like it is because it's been around for a long time.

Also factor in cost. The VQ37 and LS3 go for similar prices, yet the LS3 offers so much more performance. Also has a better warranty.

Technology is great, but as Mercedes AMG shows us, even a 4-valve, quad-cam, cutting-edge setup will only make a few more HP (about 50) than an LS7, has displacement/size limitations greater than the LS7, and costs 4 times as much.

EDIT: Personally I don't care if it is the greatest engine in the world and I could get a vette for free. I will never own a GM car

So in other words i guess the moral of the story is, there is no replacement for displacement

ImportConvert · 07-29-2011, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toner123

EDIT: Personally I don't care if it is the greatest engine in the world and I could get a vette for free. I will never own a GM car

So in other words i guess the moral of the story is, there is no replacement for displacement

Thankfully I am not constrained by such absolutes in my life. I will buy and own whatever car best suites my needs at the time.

toner123 · 07-29-2011, 06:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Thankfully I am not constrained by such absolutes in my life. I will buy and own whatever car best suites my needs at the time.

congratulations?

ProfessorDave · 07-30-2011, 02:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toner123

EDIT: Personally I don't care if it is the greatest engine in the world and I could get a vette for free. I will never own a GM car

So in other words i guess the moral of the story is, there is no replacement for displacement

Me neither!

Um. what's that you say? Pontiac was a GM car? Hmmm. No kidding.

I take that back

RCZ · 07-29-2011, 07:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ImportConvert

Well, since we are using ricer math, how about we crunch the numbers this way?

The VQ37 weighs about 370# and is 3.7L, that is 100# per liter. The LS7 is 7L and weighs 450#. That is 64# per liter. So for Nissan to have a 7.0L V8, it would weigh like 650#.

That's about the same logic as what you are using, just seen from my angle.

GM is ABLE to use massive displacement and maintain small size and low weight BECAUSE of the technology they have. Who cares when it came out? If it were the new thing you would be humping its leg. The only reason you don't like it is because it's been around for a long time.

Also factor in cost. The VQ37 and LS3 go for similar prices, yet the LS3 offers so much more performance. Also has a better warranty.

Technology is great, but as Mercedes AMG shows us, even a 4-valve, quad-cam, cutting-edge setup will only make a few more HP (about 50) than an LS7, has displacement/size limitations greater than the LS7, and costs 4 times as much.

Actually the VQ offers more performance for its size.

So your only argument is that they are lighter? They are cheaper because they make tons of them, because they are using technology that has been in development for decades and because they are relatively "low tech".

What's with the hostility man? What part of the statement that I think they are amazing engines did you miss? Stop taking this so personally. Also, lol at your AMG engine comment, I wont even go there.

You said it yourself, technology is great and they should start taking advantage of it and actually develop it in their racing program. Why limit yourself instead of evolving like all other companies do. They should be making that kind of power out of 4L V8 by now...

toner123 · 07-29-2011, 08:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

Actually the VQ offers more performance for its size.

So your only argument is that they are lighter? They are cheaper because they make tons of them, because they are using technology that has been in development for decades and because they are relatively "low tech".

What's with the hostility man? What part of the statement that I think they are amazing engines did you miss? Stop taking this so personally. Also, lol at your AMG engine comment, I wont even go there.

You said it yourself, technology is great and they should start taking advantage of it and actually develop it in their racing program. Why limit yourself instead of evolving like all other companies do. They should be making that kind of power out of 4L V8 by now...

He has one and he thinks everyone is jumping all over his car i think. I think he missed the same point you and dream are trying to say. Both of u said there great engines just wish they would update them to a more modern technology.

ImportConvert · 07-29-2011, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by toner123

He has one and he thinks everyone is jumping all over his car i think. I think he missed the same point you and dream are trying to say. Both of u said there great engines just wish they would update them to a more modern technology.

No, I'm frustrated bc I think that you guys are missing the boat. GM had a car with a dohc 4v setup decades ago. However, the pushrod design worked better, overall. Look at the ls3 and 7 heads and flow and velocity. Very impressive. I think that the ls engines could benefit from di and a few other things, but what exactly do you think you gain with a dohc setup? I promise you lose just as much in other areas.

ImportConvert · 07-29-2011, 09:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

Actually the VQ offers more performance for its size.

So your only argument is that they are lighter? They are cheaper because they make tons of them, because they are using technology that has been in development for decades and because they are relatively "low tech".

What's with the hostility man? What part of the statement that I think they are amazing engines did you miss? Stop taking this so personally. Also, lol at your AMG engine comment, I wont even go there.

You said it yourself, technology is great and they should start taking advantage of it and actually develop it in their racing program. Why limit yourself instead of evolving like all other companies do. They should be making that kind of power out of 4L V8 by now...

Why from a 4l? It would have less power under the curve, cost more, have more moving parts, and be less efficient on fuel. Look at the m3.

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