engine break-in contradiction

Armonster · 06-08-2011, 09:18 AM

Based on the opinions I have seen across different forums for different cars and motorcycles, the more knowledgeable people seem to say this: break it in easy for longevity, break it in hard for power. I went with with a little of both. I avoided WOT and 6500+ rpms for the first 1000 miles or so, but still drove in a "spirited" manner around town.

Nissan obviously recommends a break-in procedure for a reason, but doesn't tell us the reason. The question is whether that unidentified reason - which, from a practical standpoint, is most likely for longevity purposes - aligns with your own goals. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But arguing that the manufacturer's recommendation is the only correct/safe/best way to do something, simply because it's in the manual (and without knowing why it's in the manual), is a bit short sighted in my opinion.

FromG2Z · 06-08-2011, 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armonster

But arguing that the manufacturer's recommendation is the only correct/safe/best way to do something, simply because it's in the manual (and without knowing why it's in the manual), is a bit short sighted in my opinion.

Why would the manufacturer's recommendations NOT be the best way to handle THEIR product? I don't think I necessarily need to know "why" it's stated in the manual to follow. They're the experts. They're who I follow.

Now if I was an automotive engineer who did some testing on what results proper break in (under 4k rpm) yields, maybe I could question what they say. With how you broke in your car (1/2 and 1/2), what evidence do you have that you helped or hindered the longevity/performance/power/etc of your engine? Without proper proof or proper testing, any results you have are circumstantial. If you do have proof and did tear down your engine or did other forms of testing, I stand corrected and will fully accept your claim.

But until then, I will follow what my manufacturer recommends.

Armonster · 06-08-2011, 01:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z

Why would the manufacturer's recommendations NOT be the best way to handle THEIR product? I don't think I necessarily need to know "why" it's stated in the manual to follow. They're the experts. They're who I follow.

Because the manufacturer's goals are not always the same as a car enthusiast's goals. It's possible, for example, that Nissan wants us to break-in the engine in the way that causes the fewest warranty concerns down the road, even at the expense of some additional power. I'm not saying that is the case, but hopefully you see the point. We simply don't know for sure. That clearly doesn't bother you, and that's fine. But it's pretty ironic that we have a forum dedicated to modifying our cars (i.e. changing what the all-knowing expert manufacturer gave us), but then we aren't even interested in questioning their suggested break-in procedure.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z

With how you broke in your car (1/2 and 1/2), what evidence do you have that you helped or hindered the longevity/performance/power/etc of your engine? If you do have proof and did tear down your engine or did other forms of testing, I stand corrected and will fully accept your claim.

I have no evidence, nor do I claim that my method helped or hindered anything in any way. That was not the point of my post (see above for the point).

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z

But until then, I will follow what my manufacturer recommends.

I am not trying to convince you otherwise, so go for it.

11Thumper · 06-08-2011, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z

Why would the manufacturer's recommendations NOT be the best way to handle THEIR product? I don't think I necessarily need to know "why" it's stated in the manual to follow. They're the experts. They're who I follow.

Don't forget a portion of their "recommendations" are tied to safety. Part of the reason they want you to baby the car is so that you don't wrap it around a tree within the first 100 miles because you're not used to the car yet. Also, if you drive it like you stole it right from the start you risk developing heat spots on certain parts of the internal components and that can lead to future warranty claims. Although, this is highly unlikely these days.

An engine isn't 'new technology' but the way it's designed and manufactured are. With the tight tolerances and materials engines are built with today it's easy to get 100k miles (or much more) from an engine without so much as a worry (there are exceptions I realize).

The basics of a proper break-in are simple. Fluids->Proper Temps->Increasing Load->Not Overheating->Proper Cool Down

What I do for all my vehicles:

1. Ensure ALL fluids are correct and at the proper levels before each drive.
2. Allow the car to warm up properly by driving around (calmly) until at normal operating temps. Don't just freeway cruise though.
3. Slowly ease into giving the vehicle more load. Rev it a little higher each time you go out but no need to thrash it. Also use engine braking to ensure proper seating of rings.
4. Drive moderately aggressive like this for 10-15 min then drive like your grandma for about 10 min and park the car. Let it cool down fully.
5. Continue this until approx. 500 miles then on step 3 give it full gas to redline, just once or twice every 3-4 times you drive the car. Run through the gears to legal speed.
6. Once you get to 750 or so miles there's really nothing more to do.

Don't forget to change the engine oil & filter. I go 600 miles for motorcycles and 1,800 miles for cars/trucks before first oil change. If it takes you 12 months to go 1,800 miles in a new car then change at 3-4 months.

I'm still a firm believer in the need to heat cycle a new engine. It's probably not needed these days but as another member said, do what makes you comfortable. Remember that you're not just doing the break-in on the engine, you're doing it for the entire car.

Do what works for you but it's nothing to really worry over.

FromG2Z · 06-08-2011, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armonster

Because the manufacturer's goals are not always the same as a car enthusiast's goals. It's possible, for example, that Nissan wants us to break-in the engine in the way that causes the fewest warranty concerns down the road, even at the expense of some additional power. I'm not saying that is the case, but hopefully you see the point. We simply don't know for sure. That clearly doesn't bother you, and that's fine. But it's pretty ironic that we have a forum dedicated to modifying our cars (i.e. changing what the all-knowing expert manufacturer gave us), but then we aren't even interested in questioning their suggested break-in procedure.

I have no evidence, nor do I claim that my method helped or hindered anything in any way. That was not the point of my post (see above for the point).

I am not trying to convince you otherwise, so go for it.

I guess I can somewhat see your point. If someone bought a brand new Z with the sole purpose of modding it be a high powered drag car from the get-go, then going against the manufacturer's recommendations might be plausible. But again, my point is, unless there's real proof that driving it beyond 4k rpm does yield SOME benefit (in your case, power), why do it based on circumstantial evidence? For what you know, there's still a chance you "could" be hurting your car in the long run, correct?

The only thing that seems more "solid" to me is what a manufacturer recommends.... unless some other automotive engineer can speak to the pro's and con's of driving under or over 4k rpm for the first 1200 miles, I think (again this is just my opinion) the best thing to do would be to follow what Nissan recommends. Wouldn't some form of Longevity appeal to 90% of car owners?

Again, I respect your opinion and I see some of your points. We can respectfully agree to disagree on some points (not all). I'm cool with that.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Thumper

Don't forget a portion of their "recommendations" are tied to safety. Part of the reason they want you to baby the car is so that you don't wrap it around a tree within the first 100 miles because you're not used to the car yet. Also, if you drive it like you stole it right from the start you risk developing heat spots on certain parts of the internal components and that can lead to future warranty claims. Although, this is highly unlikely these days.

An engine isn't 'new technology' but the way it's designed and manufactured are. With the tight tolerances and materials engines are built with today it's easy to get 100k miles (or much more) from an engine without so much as a worry (there are exceptions I realize).

The basics of a proper break-in are simple. Fluids->Proper Temps->Increasing Load->Not Overheating->Proper Cool Down

What I do for all my vehicles:

1. Ensure ALL fluids are correct and at the proper levels before each drive.
2. Allow the car to warm up properly by driving around (calmly) until at normal operating temps. Don't just freeway cruise though.
3. Slowly ease into giving the vehicle more load. Rev it a little higher each time you go out but no need to thrash it. Also use engine braking to ensure proper seating of rings.
4. Drive moderately aggressive like this for 10-15 min then drive like your grandma for about 10 min and park the car. Let it cool down fully.
5. Continue this until approx. 500 miles then on step 3 give it full gas to redline, just once or twice every 3-4 times you drive the car. Run through the gears to legal speed.
6. Once you get to 750 or so miles there's really nothing more to do.

Don't forget to change the engine oil & filter. I go 600 miles for motorcycles and 1,800 miles for cars/trucks before first oil change. If it takes you 12 months to go 1,800 miles in a new car then change at 3-4 months.

I'm still a firm believer in the need to heat cycle a new engine. It's probably not needed these days but as another member said, do what makes you comfortable. Remember that you're not just doing the break-in on the engine, you're doing it for the entire car.

Do what works for you but it's nothing to really worry over.

I respect your methods... and I assume (hope) that you have concrete evidence/support/proof that your methods have worked. If so, great. If not, then I question WHY you are doing it this way.

But you're right, in the end, do what you want to do. For me, my proof, though it may be circumstantial but good enough for me, is that all my cars I have owned since new, I have followed the manufacturer's recommendations, and 2 of the 6 have lasted 140k or more, another one on the verge of 100k, and the others will be well on its way

Baer383 · 06-08-2011, 02:35 PM

You want to break in the engine as quick as possible to get the rings to be completely seated.

All the cars I've owned have been driven hard right out of gate I change the oil @ 500 miles and every 5000 miles after that,and haven't had anything but positive results.

Everybody has there opinion about this but the goal is the same the rings & all parts must be seated quickly.

11Thumper · 06-08-2011, 03:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Baer383

You want to break in the engine as quick as possible to get the rings to be completely seated.

All the cars I've owned have been driven hard right out of gate I change the oil @ 500 miles and every 5000 miles after that,and haven't had anything but positive results.

Everybody has there opinion about this but the goal is the same the rings & all parts must be seated quickly.

Sweet! Hey, if this has worked for you no reason to switch methods.

I'm pretty sure the break-in method isn't critical anymore so all this discussion is a waste.

Bottom line: You're not going to ruin an engine by following the break-in guidlines published in the owners manual.

Baer383 · 06-08-2011, 03:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Thumper

Sweet! Hey, if this has worked for you no reason to switch methods.

I'm pretty sure the break-in method isn't critical anymore so all this discussion is a waste.

Bottom line: You're not going to ruin an engine by following the break-in guidlines published in the owners manual.

As said above the motors are some what broken in by the time the car is assembled,but this discussion is not a waste there has been a debate about this for a long time here is a link with very interesting look at this topic(if you are willing to read it)

Break In Secrets--How To Break In New Motorcycle and Car Engines For More Power

11Thumper · 06-08-2011, 03:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z

I respect your methods... and I assume (hope) that you have concrete evidence/support/proof that your methods have worked. If so, great. If not, then I question WHY you are doing it this way.

Because I want to and it's my $ not yours.

I don't really care if you question my methods, to each their own. What's your background in mechanical engineering and metallurgy?

With several new vehicles in my past I've never (knock on wood) had a mechanical breakdown, oil consumption issue, etc. What works for me might not work for you, so do what you want.

FromG2Z · 06-08-2011, 03:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 11Thumper

Because I want to and it's my $ not yours.

I don't really care if you question my methods, to each their own. What's your background in mechanical engineering and metallurgy?

With several new vehicles in my past I've never (knock on wood) had a mechanical breakdown, oil consumption issue, etc. What works for me might not work for you, so do what you want.

Thumper, your first statement ends it all and summarizes everything. Yes, it's your $, same way it's my $ for my car, and the OP's $ for his car. Like I said, if it works for you, then great. I was just wondering where and how you came about with these methods. That's all. I hope you didn't take this as disrespect to your methods as that was not my intent.

I have an engineering background, but not to the extent that would qualify me to know the validity of EITHER method of break-in, hence my resolve to go with the manufacturer's methods.

11Thumper · 06-08-2011, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z

Thumper, your first statement ends it all and summarizes everything. Yes, it's your $, same way it's my $ for my car, and the OP's $ for his car. Like I said, if it works for you, then great. I was just wondering where and how you came about with these methods. That's all. I hope you didn't take this as disrespect to your methods as that was not my intent.

I have an engineering background, but not to the extent that would qualify me to know the validity of EITHER method of break-in, hence my resolve to go with the manufacturer's methods.

No worries, I probably didn't read your post correctly myself and took parts of it wrong. Hard to convey thoughts through a simple forum.

You could have a Ph. D in engineering and still not fully realize the validity of either break-in method. That's the truth with everyone. What's important to realize is that it's not just the rings that need to be broken in. You have the bearings (although this is totally different), camshafts, etc. Engineers are great for drawing things, designing complex parts using CAD, etc. However, I don't think the engineers specifically sat down and developed break-in procedures that are directly related to the specific design, materials and manufacturing processes of the 370Z engine. However, I could be wrong.

I only posted what I do as information. I wasn't giving specific detailed guidlines of what I think anyone else should do.

After all...it's just a complex air pump.

Armonster · 06-08-2011, 03:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FromG2Z

I guess I can somewhat see your point. If someone bought a brand new Z with the sole purpose of modding it be a high powered drag car from the get-go, then going against the manufacturer's recommendations might be plausible. But again, my point is, unless there's real proof that driving it beyond 4k rpm does yield SOME benefit (in your case, power), why do it based on circumstantial evidence? For what you know, there's still a chance you "could" be hurting your car in the long run, correct?

The only thing that seems more "solid" to me is what a manufacturer recommends.... unless some other automotive engineer can speak to the pro's and con's of driving under or over 4k rpm for the first 1200 miles, I think (again this is just my opinion) the best thing to do would be to follow what Nissan recommends. Wouldn't some form of Longevity appeal to 90% of car owners?

Again, I respect your opinion and I see some of your points. We can respectfully agree to disagree on some points (not all). I'm cool with that.

Cool, a well thought-out response! I agree that following the manufacturers method is a solid method. You wont mess anything up. While I don't have concrete evidence to back up other methods (and never will, since that type of evidence is not practical to obtain), I have read enough posts/articles from engine builders to be at least partially convinced of the benefits of a harder break-in. That's why I do a half and half type thing.

It's not my goal to convince other people what to do. I'm just pointing out that there are some experienced engine builders/engineers with detailed explanations of why one way or the other is better. And they don't all agree with each other. The debate does not end at the owner's manual.

dad · 06-08-2011, 01:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Armonster

short sighted

That's is precisely how I view your posts, in this thread!

Armonster · 06-08-2011, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dad

That's is precisely how I view your posts, in this thread!

Care to explain? That's not a very thoughtful or helpful way to voice your opinion.

Armonster · 06-08-2011, 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dad

That's is precisely how I view your posts, in this thread!

Hey "dad," not to bust your balls or anything, but I would like to point out that you posted in this break-in thread contradicting what you have said in this thread.

Specifically, you:

(1) cited a Wiki article that says "Most modern car engines are broken in at the factory, before assembly. Therefore the old tradition of breaking in a new car doesn't apply anymore. Just drive as you normally would drive and treat the car the way you would treat anything else of value."

and

(2) said that you agreed with In2Deep's break-in method, which included, among other things: "For a performance engine -- run her through some higher rpm's every 75-100 miles, but not to redline. Ever. So, 10-12 run-throughts up through higher rpms within the first 1000 miles."

Your previous posts sound awfully similar to what I described above, and yet you called my posts short sighted without providing any reasoning or even recognizing that other viewpoints are valid. One of the many problems with stating your opinions in a conclusory manner as if they were proven facts. Just sayin'.

06-08-2011, 02:35 PM	#6 (permalink)
Baer383 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Lawrenceville,Ga Posts: 4,293 Drives: My foot up your azz Rep Power: 31	You want to break in the engine as quick as possible to get the rings to be completely seated. All the cars I've owned have been driven hard right out of gate I change the oil @ 500 miles and every 5000 miles after that,and haven't had anything but positive results. Everybody has there opinion about this but the goal is the same the rings & all parts must be seated quickly. __________________ 2013 ZL1 754 rwhp 747 rwtq

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06-08-2011, 09:18 AM	#1 (permalink)
Armonster Enthusiast Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Atlanta, GA Posts: 270 Drives: 2010 370z t/sp/6mt Rep Power: 15	Based on the opinions I have seen across different forums for different cars and motorcycles, the more knowledgeable people seem to say this: break it in easy for longevity, break it in hard for power. I went with with a little of both. I avoided WOT and 6500+ rpms for the first 1000 miles or so, but still drove in a "spirited" manner around town. Nissan obviously recommends a break-in procedure for a reason, but doesn't tell us the reason. The question is whether that unidentified reason - which, from a practical standpoint, is most likely for longevity purposes - aligns with your own goals. Sometimes it does, sometimes it doesn't. But arguing that the manufacturer's recommendation is the only correct/safe/best way to do something, simply because it's in the manual (and without knowing why it's in the manual), is a bit short sighted in my opinion.