One of our forum members getting screwed over by a dealership

[Isamu]

Originally Posted by Leingod

I just sent out an email to Jalopnik, Steve Lehto, and a few other attorney friends to see what they say. I'll try to stop by my local shop tonight to talk with my personal auto tech.

let me know if you hear anything back!

[Isamu]

You guys rule

[Leingod]

No word from jalopnik or Lehto. The old lawfirm I use to work at all agreed that you should lawyer up out of county. This is strictly a dealership fault. Especially if you went in with the dealership knowing you were paying out of pocket. Warranty voiding only works if the warranty is actually in place.

Mechanic was out. I'll give him another call tonight. How is RJM coming along with it?

[cv129]

I don't understand the need for the written/signed statements. Is that just another hurdle the dealership owner is throwing at you to save face?

It's very apparent the mechanic drove it just for fun, because...

How would the mechanic be able to tell the existence, location, and severity of the brake fluid leak if he didn't clean up the fluid that was already spilled all over the engine bay? Gotta wipe off the mess to see the wound, that's just common sense.

[Isamu]

Originally Posted by cv129

I don't understand the need for the written/signed statements. Is that just another hurdle the dealership owner is throwing at you to save face?

It's very apparent the mechanic drove it just for fun, because...

How would the mechanic be able to tell the existence, location, and severity of the brake fluid leak if he didn't clean up the fluid that was already spilled all over the engine bay? Gotta wipe off the mess to see the wound, that's just common sense.

it's more of a, "If i have to take this to court, I have written backup stating the dealership was wrong."
When I go speak with the owner, i'd like to have all my ducks in a row. and if need be, and I have to take them to court. I want all the evidence to slam dunk this thing.

[birdman71]

Originally Posted by Isamu

it's more of a, "If i have to take this to court, I have written backup stating the dealership was wrong."
When I go speak with the owner, i'd like to have all my ducks in a row. and if need be, and I have to take them to court. I want all the evidence to slam dunk this thing.

And not some weakass slam dunk either.... He wants to SHATTER THEIR BACKBOARD beyond replacement when he dunks on them

[SouthArk370Z]

This is extremely minor compared to the fire itself, but I've been wondering why the dealership would use a dry powder extinguisher, instead of CO2, on a customer's vehicle for a Class B fire. Sure, a dry chem works, but look at the mess. A CO2 would work just as well and leave little to no residue.

BTW, the powder in most dry chem extinguishers is sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), potassium bicarbonate (very similar to baking soda), or monoammonium phosphate, all of which become corrosive when they become damp/wet. If you haven't done so already, do a through cleanup.

[Rusty]

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

This is extremely minor compared to the fire itself, but I've been wondering why the dealership would use a dry powder extinguisher, instead of CO2, on a customer's vehicle for a Class B fire. Sure, a dry chem works, but look at the mess. A CO2 would work just as well and leave little to no residue.

BTW, the powder in most dry chem extinguishers is sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), potassium bicarbonate (very similar to baking soda), or monoammonium phosphate, all of which become corrosive when they become damp/wet. If you haven't done so already, do a through cleanup.

The dealership might have only one type of fire extinguisher, One for all classes. Class A, B and C. It's cheaper that way, and they are cover.

[SouthArk370Z]

Originally Posted by Rusty

The dealership might have only one type of fire extinguisher, One for all classes. Class A, B and C. It's cheaper that way, and they are cover.

Thanks. Crappy way to treat a customer's car, but I guess it makes business sense if you are insured.

[Darwins Child]

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

This is extremely minor compared to the fire itself, but I've been wondering why the dealership would use a dry powder extinguisher, instead of CO2, on a customer's vehicle for a Class B fire. Sure, a dry chem works, but look at the mess. A CO2 would work just as well and leave little to no residue.

BTW, the powder in most dry chem extinguishers is sodium bicarbonate (baking soda), potassium bicarbonate (very similar to baking soda), or monoammonium phosphate, all of which become corrosive when they become damp/wet. If you haven't done so already, do a through cleanup.

Exactly right.

CO2 should be standard fare in automotive shops for precisely the reasons you state (and I stated back in post 32 of this thread). We have two of them in our home, as well as a water hose at the ready. I acquired those CO2 extinguishers because I saw what a dry chemical extinguisher did to a kitchen and adjacent rooms after the homeowner used one on an oven fire. It wasn't pretty and it was expensive to clean up.

One of the main advantages of CO2 in an automotive application is that the expanding CO2 will not only deprive the fire of oxygen and snuff it out instantly, but it will also very rapidly cool the hot metal in the area of the fire, making it very unlikely that whatever it is that's burning will re-ignite when the CO2 stops.
Frostbite injury of the foot from portable fire extinguisher [eScholarship]

If this particular fire started while the vehicle was on a lift and there was a CO2 extinguisher closeby, it is more than possible that the fire could have been extinguished so fast that the damage to the vehicle caused by the fire would have been inconsequential and inexpensive to repair. And with that economically different result, the dealership may very well have promptly proceeded with the repair, swallowed the cost of the parts damaged by fire, and finally charged the owner only for the repair -- which is what the owner fully expected when he brought in the vehicle.

In a legal proceeding I would mention that, even though a CO2 extinguisher may not be required by law or the dealership's insurance company, the dealership was negligent for not having one at the ready for a vehicle that was known to have a flammable-fluid leak that was quite possibly located somewhere in the engine compartment. The fact that, even knowing this, the dealership then allowed the engine and attached parts to heat up
Ignition > Autoigntion > Underhood Surface Temperatures
to a temperature well above the flash point of that liquid
http://www.kmcoinc.com/DOT4%20Brake%...S%20(9-09).pdf
is blatant negligence and even a bone-ignorant adjudicator will almost certainly agree.

[Isamu]

Originally Posted by Darwins Child

Exactly right.

CO2 should be standard fare in automotive shops for precisely the reasons you state (and I stated back in post 32 of this thread). We have two of them in our home, as well as a water hose at the ready. I acquired those CO2 extinguishers because I saw what a dry chemical extinguisher did to a kitchen and adjacent rooms after the homeowner used one on an oven fire. It wasn't pretty and it was expensive to clean up.

One of the main advantages of CO2 in an automotive application is that the expanding CO2 will not only deprive the fire of oxygen and snuff it out instantly, but it will also very rapidly cool the hot metal in the area of the fire, making it very unlikely that whatever it is that's burning will re-ignite when the CO2 stops.
Frostbite injury of the foot from portable fire extinguisher [eScholarship]

If this particular fire started while the vehicle was on a lift and there was a CO2 extinguisher closeby, it is more than possible that the fire could have been extinguished so fast that the damage to the vehicle caused by the fire would have been inconsequential and inexpensive to repair. And with that economically different result, the dealership may very well have promptly proceeded with the repair, swallowed the cost of the parts damaged by fire, and finally charged the owner only for the repair -- which is what the owner fully expected when he brought in the vehicle.

In a legal proceeding I would mention that, even though a CO2 extinguisher may not be required by law or the dealership's insurance company, the dealership was negligent for not having one at the ready for a vehicle that was known to have a flammable-fluid leak that was quite possibly located somewhere in the engine compartment. The fact that, even knowing this, the dealership then allowed the engine and attached parts to heat up
Ignition > Autoigntion > Underhood Surface Temperatures
to a temperature well above the flash point of that liquid
http://www.kmcoinc.com/DOT4%20Brake%...S%20(9-09).pdf
is blatant negligence and even a bone-ignorant adjudicator will almost certainly agree.

great post! thank you, and the information is great! this could potentially help me if i have to goto court!

[Darwins Child]

Originally Posted by Isamu

great post! thank you, and the information is great! this could potentially help me if i have to goto court!

It's my pleasure.

I assume you did not bring the vehicle into the dealership and say only "something's wrong with my car, so fix it". You described the problem you were having. You can prove this, as well as the dealership's understanding of the problem, by producing any kind of document that the dealership gave to you at the time you brought it in that states what the potential problem was -- for example, "brake pedal low" or "losing braking", etc. This will be solid evidence of a possible leak in the brake system and that the dealership had at least some idea of where to start looking in order to repair whatever was wrong and, quite possibly, that a test drive should / may have been unnecessary to repair what was wrong.

Ultimately, everybody in the world knows that you and other vehicle owners bring their vehicles to automotive repair shops to be repaired, not to be set on fire. Luckily, most people --even judges and lawyers-- are themselves vehicle owners and have probably gotten shafted at dealerships' repair shops themselves. They are going to be very sympathetic as they listen to another victim's plight. (Payback time!)

Therefore, I think you would prevail in a simple small claims court action in which you represent yourself. In North Dakota it seems to be a very simple procedure.
Legal Services of North Dakota » Complete Topic List

If you don't get satisfaction from whatever your insurance company does, if I were you, small claims court is the route I'd take to Justice. You'll get plenty of advice here for specifically what to say and produce at the proceeding.

Good luck.

[Isamu]

Originally Posted by Darwins Child

It's my pleasure.

( Click to show/hide )

I assume you did not bring the vehicle into the dealership and say only "something's wrong with my car, so fix it". You described the problem you were having. You can prove this, as well as the dealership's understanding of the problem, by producing any kind of document that the dealership gave to you at the time you brought it in that states what the potential problem was -- for example, "brake pedal low" or "losing braking", etc. This will be solid evidence of a possible leak in the brake system and that the dealership had at least some idea of where to start looking in order to repair whatever was wrong and, quite possibly, that a test drive should / may have been unnecessary to repair what was wrong.

Ultimately, everybody in the world knows that you and other vehicle owners bring their vehicles to automotive repair shops to be repaired, not to be set on fire. Luckily, most people --even judges and lawyers-- are themselves vehicle owners and have probably gotten shafted at dealerships' repair shops themselves. They are going to be very sympathetic as they listen to another victim's plight. (Payback time!)

Therefore, I think you would prevail in a simple small claims court action in which you represent yourself. In North Dakota it seems to be a very simple procedure.
Legal Services of North Dakota » Complete Topic List

If you don't get satisfaction from whatever your insurance company does, if I were you, small claims court is the route I'd take to Justice. You'll get plenty of advice here for specifically what to say and produce at the proceeding.

Good luck.

I specifically told them I had a brake leak, and the service manager even said to me, "you're lucky it didn't catch fire, brake fluid is flammable."

[DeliriousClam]

^ Makes a good point. start recording any conversation you have with anyone involved with this ****. You're in a one-party consent state so anything they say and you have recorded you can use in court

[TwinTurboZ]

As a general rule, when the car is in possession of the dealer, they are liable for damage to it at least with a standard of reasonable care (ie. they cannot be negligent in the handling and protection of the property). They may attempt to disclaim the liability in the agreement (check the copy of the service agreement that you signed for such language, probably the fine print).

Ideas:
(1) Record all conversations and video of your interactions with the dealer, if it is legal (check your state laws).

(2) BBB is a waste of your time, don't bother, they are a private company that profits from charging companies to clear their name.

(3) Option 1 - Call your insurance company and make a claim for the fire damage, but tell the insurance company the dealer caused the damage. This is similar to the dealer causing an accident against your car. The insurance company has lawyers that could go after the dealership for the cost and make them pay. The dealer's insurance company may pay up shortly after. If the insurance company feels there is no liability, they might increase your rates, but they should cover the fire if your policy includes it. Caution: they may rate your risk higher in either case and increase rates, but the advantage is you can avoid messing around with legal claims.

(4) Option 2 - File your own claim in small claims court if the value is under the amount in controversy requirement. Document everything. Make sure you have an idea of the basis for your claim - you may need to find out what under what law the dealer is liable for goods in his possession, although the small claims court tends to be forgiving. Hint: UCC Article 1, bailment may be relevant, also read up on tort negligence. Bailees are expected to insure or protect goods under repair. Having documentation such as they acted improperly our with negligence will help.

(5) Option 3 - Get an attorney to draft the complaint and serve the dealership with a formal claim. If the dealer doesn't budge, then file in the local court and get ready for a fight. Note, that if you do not live in the state, this could be interstate commerce and you may be able to file in federal district court.

This is not legal advice, merely information and is not a comprehensive list of options. You should seek counsel from an attorney to protect your rights.

Good luck.