wstar's Journal

RockStarKick · 04-30-2011, 10:55 AM

In for more results, nice review !!

ClemsonWill · 04-30-2011, 11:36 AM

I'm definitely interested in a new dyno. Without the M370 you will have a very similar setup to mine. I'm debating on getting the canned tunes vs a full custome tune.

RCZ · 04-30-2011, 12:07 PM

My guess is 293 when you get redyno'd without it.

wstar · 04-30-2011, 04:39 PM

Ok the results are in, and the dyno vindicates the M370 actually, so that whole theory about the intake manifold potentially being a problem was bunk. This is the comparative HP+Torque. The red lines are the M370 yesterday, the blue lines are the stock manifold today. Both are on the stock ECU map, roughly similar weather conditions, etc.

You can clearly see the M370 makes decent torque and power gains virtually everywhere, but comes in a little low beyond 7K RPM. This is what I was originally expecting based on the M370 thread, so there's nothing wrong with the M370 at all. The gains are actually quite impressive to me. Those yellow grid lines are worth 8 hp/torque each. Pretty fat torque gains in the low end, and the slight loss at the top is totally worth it.

We also played with that canned UpRev tune a bit as well. The bottom line is that on the stock manifold, it makes virtually no difference in power, but considerably leans out the engine. On the M370, the UpRev tune hurts a bit on power. Either way, the whole setup obviously could use some real dyno tuning love, and I really don't fault UpRev for this canned tune, seeing as how it's based on zero real data from the car.

The M370 will be going back on the car this weekend, obviously. The remaining issue is explaining the loss of ~20HP vs my older dyno graphs.

15K miles of hard driving could introduce a number of variables, perhaps some deeper maintenance is in order (some kind of fuel injector cleaning treatment? Spark plugs? Are there some fittings loosening somewhere that I haven't found?). I had a peek at my air filters this morning too, and the grooves are full of road debris (bits of grass and dirt, etc). They're really in bad need of a cleaning, so that could be a contributing factor if they're starting to restrict.

Another potential change between my ancient run and these recent ones is that I changed a leaky and broken Stillen catback for a working Fast Intentions one. It's possible the Stillen's leak was actually helping my power output before

.

Another factor is when we went back over all the dyno's data log for the old and new runs, there was a substantial ambient temp difference. The old runs were logged at 74F ambient, and the new runs are at 95F. Ignoring any difference in atmospheric pressure or humidity (no data log on any difference there), just the 20 degree temp rise could account for about 6HP according to normal SAE correction formulas.

So I don't really know at this point. I'm chalking it up to 6 from the temp change and the other 14 I'm guessing is from dirty air filters, lack of an exhaust leak possibly, and general wear and tear? I was already planning to swap filters when I put in the 7AT cooler, hopefully soon. Maybe after that I'll see if I can get another run in on a cool day in the morning just to see what difference temps+filters makes.

Thanks to Brian at Engine Logics for doing the dyno runs and going over the results with me. I think I'll be using them to do my tuning once the long tube headers are on.

wstar · 04-30-2011, 04:54 PM

For quick comparison, here's the graph from 15K miles ago (hope it stays on the same page):

370Z JT · 04-30-2011, 07:36 PM

Wow. Can't wait to get the manifold. Looks like +16 hp and trq gains in some areas. Quite impressive. This is with a canned tune to boot.

wstar · 04-30-2011, 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Z JT

Wow. Can't wait to get the manifold. Looks like +16 hp and trq gains in some areas. Quite impressive. This is with a canned tune to boot.

It's with no tune, those graphs are running the stock map.

wstar · 05-01-2011, 07:30 AM

This morning I was thinking more about the relative weather issue on these two widely-spaced dyno runs, when I remembered that there's online almanac data. I looked up the pressure and humidity in Houston for the first dyno date and yesterday, combined that with the temperature data from the dyno's logs, and plugged the full set of values into the SAE calculator HERE, and it came up with a dyno correction factor of 0.995 for my old run and 1.050 for the new run.

Assuming the almanac data is decent information source for these purposes, those correction factors put the numbers at SAE-corrected 298.7 and 294, respectively, rather than 300.2 and 280. So really I'm betting most of the difference was the weather. 4.7hp could be anything, likely the dirty filters

RCZ · 05-01-2011, 09:42 PM

so it does work then. Cool. Looks like some real gains in the mid range!

wstar · 05-07-2011, 12:06 AM

Got bored this evening and decided to make an unplanned run out to the local dragstrip (Royal Purple Raceway, what used to be Houston Raceway Park). Only did two runs: one at 35 PSI all around that came in 13.335 @ 103.79, and a second run I dropped to 30 PSI on the rears and shaved a little time, got a 13.245 @103.27. DA-corrected, the runs are 13.192 @ 104.92 MPH and 13.134 @ 104.137 MPH.

I'm not the world's best drag racer and never will be, but they were pretty solid runs for me. I'm sure the car has a little more in it with slightly better launching and shift timing. Should easily drop into the high 12s once the next round of changes are done circa late June (LTHs, tune, 2pc front rotors), which is coincidentally about when I think I'll finally have time to start regularly hitting up the HPDE events down at Grandsport Speedway. I really want to get my transmission cooler and front brake ducts done before that though.

wstar · 05-07-2011, 12:08 AM

Oh yeah, the timeslip scans. Any advice about what I sucked at the most for next time based on all the little detail #'s?

tranceformer · 05-07-2011, 08:42 AM

I find it strange that you're only picking up 18.88 mph in the second 1/8 mile. The 84 mph trap speed in the 1/8th mile is definitely healthy for a bolt-on 370Z. But it seems like your Z just falls on its face in the 2nd 1/8 mile.

Just to give you an idea: a year ago in similar weather I was running 82 to 83 mph in the 1/8 and 102 to 104 in the 1/4 mile. And depending on how I was shifting, my Z will pick up anything from 20 to 23 mph from the 1/8 to the 1/4 mile.

or maybe i'm overthinking this?

wstar · 05-07-2011, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranceformer

I find it strange that you're only picking up 18.88 mph in the second 1/8 mile. The 84 mph trap speed in the 1/8th mile is definitely healthy for a bolt-on 370Z. But it seems like your Z just falls on its face in the 2nd 1/8 mile.

That was kind of my gut feeling at the track, too. What's particularly strange with those two runs is that my second run with the better ET had a slightly lower trap speed

. I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm misjudging where the official end of the 1/4 is and getting off the car too quick at the end heh.

tranceformer · 05-07-2011, 10:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

That was kind of my gut feeling at the track, too. What's particularly strange with those two runs is that my second run with the better ET had a slightly lower trap speed

. I'm starting to wonder if maybe I'm misjudging where the official end of the 1/4 is and getting off the car too quick at the end heh.

Losing MPH when you lower tire pressure is normal.

How does the car feel towards the end? Did it feel 'slow' at the top of the last gear or two towards the end? What was your oil temps when you made those runs? I usually let my car cool off MINIMUM 30 minutes between each run. Ideally 45 min to 1 hour, or as long as it takes to get the oil temps back down to 150 160 degree range. Any hotter than that and I can feel the car lag at the top of 3rd gear (6MT). Can you tell I'm a track junkie?

IIRC they calculate trap speed by measuring how long it takes to cover a measured distance (which starts from the end of the 1/4 mile mark). Just because of that I stay on it until about 115-120 just in case.

wstar · 05-07-2011, 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tranceformer

Losing MPH when you lower tire pressure is normal.

Ah I didn't think of that, makes sense.

Quote:

How does the car feel towards the end? Did it feel 'slow' at the top of the last gear or two towards the end?

Beats me, it all happens so fast it's hard to remember. I know on both runs I smoked my random competitor for the first half of the race, and then first one caught up by quite a bit near the end, and the second one ended up overtaking me.

Quote:

What was your oil temps when you made those runs? I usually let my car cool off MINIMUM 30 minutes between each run. Ideally 45 min to 1 hour, or as long as it takes to get the oil temps back down to 150 160 degree range. Any hotter than that and I can feel the car lag at the top of 3rd gear (6MT).

I had a good hour between runs, but about half of that was idling in line (I did shut down during a couple long waits for other car classes to try to prevent heat soak buildup). My oil temp was 180 at the start of each run (in the evening the car tends to stabilize there at idle with my thermo'd oil cooler + oil pan spacer), and the coolant around 188-190. At the end of the run the oil would be closer to 200-210 when I looked while turning off the track.

I could get it down to 160 if I tried (harder) to avoid prolonged idling after my cooldown/off period, but I figured I didn't want the oil too cold, but I guess I'm just being paranoid about ideal temps there. I'm running 5W30 anyways, I'm thinking I should start switching to 10W30 in the hot summers here.

Quote:

IIRC they calculate trap speed by measuring how long it takes to cover a measured distance (which starts from the end of the 1/4 mile mark). Just because of that I stay on it until about 115-120 just in case.

Yeah I definitely didn't stay on it past the 1/4 mark, and I might even be letting off early, I guess next trip in a few months I'll try to stay on it way past where I think the mark is and see what happens.

04-30-2011, 10:55 AM	#346 (permalink)
RockStarKick Enthusiast Member Join Date: Dec 2010 Location: Houston Posts: 298 Drives: it like a rental Rep Power: 14	In for more results, nice review !! __________________ 2013 Mustang GT, 6M, Track Pack & Leather Recaros 2011 Pearl White 6M /Sport Pkg - SOLD

04-30-2011, 11:36 AM	#347 (permalink)
ClemsonWill A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: Charleston, SC Posts: 12,045 Drives: a Civic VP! Rep Power: 444	I'm definitely interested in a new dyno. Without the M370 you will have a very similar setup to mine. I'm debating on getting the canned tunes vs a full custome tune. __________________ Slightly modded

04-30-2011, 04:39 PM	#349 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Ok the results are in, and the dyno vindicates the M370 actually, so that whole theory about the intake manifold potentially being a problem was bunk. This is the comparative HP+Torque. The red lines are the M370 yesterday, the blue lines are the stock manifold today. Both are on the stock ECU map, roughly similar weather conditions, etc. You can clearly see the M370 makes decent torque and power gains virtually everywhere, but comes in a little low beyond 7K RPM. This is what I was originally expecting based on the M370 thread, so there's nothing wrong with the M370 at all. The gains are actually quite impressive to me. Those yellow grid lines are worth 8 hp/torque each. Pretty fat torque gains in the low end, and the slight loss at the top is totally worth it. We also played with that canned UpRev tune a bit as well. The bottom line is that on the stock manifold, it makes virtually no difference in power, but considerably leans out the engine. On the M370, the UpRev tune hurts a bit on power. Either way, the whole setup obviously could use some real dyno tuning love, and I really don't fault UpRev for this canned tune, seeing as how it's based on zero real data from the car. The M370 will be going back on the car this weekend, obviously. The remaining issue is explaining the loss of ~20HP vs my older dyno graphs. 15K miles of hard driving could introduce a number of variables, perhaps some deeper maintenance is in order (some kind of fuel injector cleaning treatment? Spark plugs? Are there some fittings loosening somewhere that I haven't found?). I had a peek at my air filters this morning too, and the grooves are full of road debris (bits of grass and dirt, etc). They're really in bad need of a cleaning, so that could be a contributing factor if they're starting to restrict. Another potential change between my ancient run and these recent ones is that I changed a leaky and broken Stillen catback for a working Fast Intentions one. It's possible the Stillen's leak was actually helping my power output before . Another factor is when we went back over all the dyno's data log for the old and new runs, there was a substantial ambient temp difference. The old runs were logged at 74F ambient, and the new runs are at 95F. Ignoring any difference in atmospheric pressure or humidity (no data log on any difference there), just the 20 degree temp rise could account for about 6HP according to normal SAE correction formulas. So I don't really know at this point. I'm chalking it up to 6 from the temp change and the other 14 I'm guessing is from dirty air filters, lack of an exhaust leak possibly, and general wear and tear? I was already planning to swap filters when I put in the 7AT cooler, hopefully soon. Maybe after that I'll see if I can get another run in on a cool day in the morning just to see what difference temps+filters makes. Thanks to Brian at Engine Logics for doing the dyno runs and going over the results with me. I think I'll be using them to do my tuning once the long tube headers are on. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details Last edited by wstar; 04-30-2011 at 05:01 PM.

04-30-2011, 04:54 PM	#350 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	For quick comparison, here's the graph from 15K miles ago (hope it stays on the same page): __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

04-30-2011, 07:36 PM	#351 (permalink)
370Z JT A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: United States Posts: 2,905 Drives: 370Z PW 7AT Rep Power: 378	Wow. Can't wait to get the manifold. Looks like +16 hp and trq gains in some areas. Quite impressive. This is with a canned tune to boot. __________________ Click for My Journal Top Secret \| EVO-R \| Fujimura Auto \| Shine Auto \| Seibon \| MRWorks \| Swift \| SPC \| SSR \| UpRev \| Project Kics \| NST \| Titek \| Eibach \| Nismo \| Whiteline \| Quaife \| Invidia \| Fly1 \| CF Element \| Carbon Signal

04-30-2011, 12:07 PM	#348 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	My guess is 293 when you get redyno'd without it.

05-01-2011, 07:30 AM	#353 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	This morning I was thinking more about the relative weather issue on these two widely-spaced dyno runs, when I remembered that there's online almanac data. I looked up the pressure and humidity in Houston for the first dyno date and yesterday, combined that with the temperature data from the dyno's logs, and plugged the full set of values into the SAE calculator HERE, and it came up with a dyno correction factor of 0.995 for my old run and 1.050 for the new run. Assuming the almanac data is decent information source for these purposes, those correction factors put the numbers at SAE-corrected 298.7 and 294, respectively, rather than 300.2 and 280. So really I'm betting most of the difference was the weather. 4.7hp could be anything, likely the dirty filters __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-01-2011, 09:42 PM	#354 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	so it does work then. Cool. Looks like some real gains in the mid range!

05-07-2011, 12:06 AM	#355 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Got bored this evening and decided to make an unplanned run out to the local dragstrip (Royal Purple Raceway, what used to be Houston Raceway Park). Only did two runs: one at 35 PSI all around that came in 13.335 @ 103.79, and a second run I dropped to 30 PSI on the rears and shaved a little time, got a 13.245 @103.27. DA-corrected, the runs are 13.192 @ 104.92 MPH and 13.134 @ 104.137 MPH. I'm not the world's best drag racer and never will be, but they were pretty solid runs for me. I'm sure the car has a little more in it with slightly better launching and shift timing. Should easily drop into the high 12s once the next round of changes are done circa late June (LTHs, tune, 2pc front rotors), which is coincidentally about when I think I'll finally have time to start regularly hitting up the HPDE events down at Grandsport Speedway. I really want to get my transmission cooler and front brake ducts done before that though. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details Last edited by wstar; 05-07-2011 at 12:38 AM.

05-07-2011, 12:08 AM	#356 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Oh yeah, the timeslip scans. Any advice about what I sucked at the most for next time based on all the little detail #'s? __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

05-07-2011, 08:42 AM	#357 (permalink)
tranceformer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,213 Drives: 2009 370Z PW 6MT Rep Power: 267	I find it strange that you're only picking up 18.88 mph in the second 1/8 mile. The 84 mph trap speed in the 1/8th mile is definitely healthy for a bolt-on 370Z. But it seems like your Z just falls on its face in the 2nd 1/8 mile. Just to give you an idea: a year ago in similar weather I was running 82 to 83 mph in the 1/8 and 102 to 104 in the 1/4 mile. And depending on how I was shifting, my Z will pick up anything from 20 to 23 mph from the 1/8 to the 1/4 mile. or maybe i'm overthinking this? __________________ Ray 2009 370Z Base Sport 6MT / 12.860 @ 109.09mph / 1.921 60ft / street tires official 1/4 mile track times

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