Next Generation Gaming Systems

Mr&Mrs · 06-21-2013, 02:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadoquad

Sony deserves plenty of credit for how they played the media. I don't care if it was "Business 101", they are a business. Microsoft is also a business and should have known better than making a huge PR mistake during the biggest consumer electronics show of the year and on the dawn of releasing their next console. But I can also agree that an informed consumer will judge the consoles on their merits and care less about PR. Unfortunately, the mass populace is not completely composed of informed or objective consumers.

I get it! I agree the PR sucked lets move on. I am just trying to say lets think about it not sounding bad in their heads until they said it. We know we have all done that before

Quote:

That's just you, then. Plenty of people sell back their disks, because after a year or so, your 60 dollar game just isn't worth that, whether you shine it up and keep it on a shelf or trade it back. YOU might think it's worth that, but you've already spent your 60 dollars and now the game is just a memento of what was. It's a bit ridiculous to me to say that it's a "revolution" for you to not have a stack of disk, when you could have just taken them to a gamestop and sold them for chicken feed. But I also understand cloud gaming advantages. I get that. I just don't buy your "revolution" argument as it relates to clutter... clean your room

I never said I think its even worth a 1.00. It isnt worth it to me to let someone else rip off me and kids that dont know any better. These trade in places have ruined the resale of our used games. Almost how eBay drives down prices of collectables because you can hop online and find a bunch of the same item and people driving the prices down.

You think someone that worries about finger prints on a book no one sees has a dirty room?

Quote:

In the last 5-10 years, have you NEVER once had an internet service outage? Not once? Because not everyone falls into that category. Sometimes my internet service has an issue, but I'd still like to play a game. It's a valid complaint. Unless MS was providing and guaranteeing that connection, they shouldn't make your every gameplay experience hinge on it. And if you go to Zdayz or a remote mountain resort, you will not have internet in your cabin.

Yes I have. This is another one of those topics that was blown out of proportion. The odds of not having internet for more than 24 hours are slim to none. So up to 24 hours without internet you could game offline. Worst case your system validated 23 hours and 59 minutes before the outage. If your internet is down for more than 48 hours your probably without power as well. Plus if you dont have internet you can get a 360

Edit: The last thing im going to be thinking about on a vacation in the mountains with my Z is internet.

Quote:

And again, out of those 70 million, how many have had an outage now and again, but still have power on?

Read Above

Quote:

Advantage: PS4

Agreed, but read above.

Quote:

So now it's good business practice to throw away indie gamers?! lol wow, that's stretching. Would it not be prudent to encourage more and more young and emerging developing talent to develop for one's console and market their experiments on there? Doesn't that bode for a brighter future? XBox took advantage of that in the last generation and are now ignoring it, and you're praising them for it... Now who's pig-headed?

They are not throwing them away just forcing some of them away. No I do not have a problem with that.

Quote:

They went cheaper. Their product is cheaper but costs more. Here's business 101 for you.

They went cheaper but the higher costs is to still off set the loss on the system. Parts alone are not the entire manufacturing process.

Quote:

Online experience isn't a big sell for me. I will miss my XBL friends, but I'll make others in PS land.

Quote:

What I find hilarious is how "not having disks cluttering my house because I refuse to sell them" and "having multiple remote controls" constitutes reason for a "revolution in gaming" by using cloud games and having a voice activated Xbox control your various systems. If that does it for you, then great, but I don't find anything revolutionary about that, in the least. So revolutionary that a PC with steam has been capable of doing it for how long? And is Sony totally ignoring cloud gaming? Any word on that?

You said it your self. It has never been done on a gaming console. No matter how you look at it, that is a revolution for this market. No word on Sony cloud, their heads are still up there from all their pre-sales. Which I am part of

-

Quote:

There are people who enjoy game consoles for bei ng, well, game consoles. To me, there's little beneficial about making them into less capable computers and entertainment centers that also happen to play games.

Your volley

I do not like the social integration but that is just me as well. The new younger generation does want these things to happen. We are just getting older and dont like the change. Understanding it has made it easier for me. Whether we like it or not the changes are coming and as long as we enjoy video games its something to deal with.

shadoquad · 06-21-2013, 06:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

I never said I think its even worth a 1.00. It isnt worth it to me to let someone else rip off me and kids that dont know any better. These trade in places have ruined the resale of our used games. Almost how eBay drives down prices of collectables because you can hop online and find a bunch of the same item and people driving the prices down.

The used games market was more valuable to the average gamer and to the video game industry at large than the big publishers would like to admit. And sitting on your shelf, the games are not getting played and are utterly worthless. Traded in, maybe you buy a new game with some of the money, and maybe someone less fortunate or less confident in the title gets to play a game that they wondered about but couldn't afford or didn't want to spring for initially, and maybe they love the game and then buy the sequel new when they have more money or faith in the title.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

Yes I have. This is another one of those topics that was blown out of proportion. The odds of not having internet for more than 24 hours are slim to none. So up to 24 hours without internet you could game offline. Worst case your system validated 23 hours and 59 minutes before the outage. If your internet is down for more than 48 hours your probably without power as well. Plus if you dont have internet you can get a 360

Edit: The last thing im going to be thinking about on a vacation in the mountains with my Z is internet.

I've had several outages last more than one day, and the "if you don't have internet you can get a 360" line is just plain ignorant. If I don't have internet, I'll get a PS4 and enjoy most of the same titles that are on the XB1. Plenty of people take consoles with them on vacation. I don't, but plenty do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

They are not throwing them away just forcing some of them away. No I do not have a problem with that.

I have huge problems with big Microsoft messing with little indie gamer, but whatever, opinions are like pizza toppings

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

They went cheaper but the higher costs is to still off set the loss on the system. Parts alone are not the entire manufacturing process.

Right, but PS4 will be less expensive and not require that annoying accessory.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

You said it your self. It has never been done on a gaming console. No matter how you look at it, that is a revolution for this market. No word on Sony cloud, their heads are still up there from all their pre-sales. Which I am part of

-

It's nothing revolutionary if they've been doing it on PC's for a decade. It's not revolutionary. I wish that XB1 or PS4 was offering anything of real value in terms of revolutionizing the gaming market, but they just aren't. XBox is selling you convenience features, not improving the game console.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

I do not like the social integration but that is just me as well. The new younger generation does want these things to happen. We are just getting older and dont like the change. Understanding it has made it easier for me. Whether we like it or not the changes are coming and as long as we enjoy video games its something to deal with.

lol get off my lawn you young whippersnapper *shakes cane*

FortuneLSX-TT · 06-21-2013, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

Do people really think Microsoft didnt know this? They were willing to stretch their necks to try and make the next step. Which is DRM controlled by the developers. It backfired pretty bad on them

I would say, the extent that Microsoft knows this or cares is debatable. It certainly did seem that they were more interested in catering to the developers. I'm not saying that the developers shouldn't make money, but a balance does need to be struck. The way the whole Xbox One reveal has been handled so far did have quite a bit of hubris.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

I wasnt blaming Sony for anything. If thats how you and others took it let me explain. People were basically saying how smart Sony was, and how awesome they were at E3 (yet the majority agree their game line up is limp). I was simply saying exactly what you did. Its Business 101, doesn't impress me, I would expect a company to do that on the other end. I was just trying to take away some of the credit people were giving them.

I think Shadoquad covered this one pretty well already. All I'd have to add is, this isn't Microsoft's first rodeo. This is their third gaming console, not to mention countless other product releases. Sony may not deserve a ton of credit for doing what businesses do, but Microsoft should receive a ton of blame for not doing what businesses in their position should do.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

I say those things but the truth is I only lend games to my father in law anymore, and I have maybe sold 3 games in the last 7 years. I do not have the time to beat games in one day like when I was a child. So by the time I can trade one or sell it, it makes me feel better to just keep it. Since I usually pick them up on release day/week and pay 60.00 it is to much of a loss in my eyes.

Personally, I sold a bunch of my old video games a few months ago and was able to turn a pile of discs sitting on my coffee table into a new Samsung Galaxy Note 10.1 at Best Buy. They had an extra 50% trade in offer, and I took advantage of it. So I see the value of trading in used games. If you don't, you don't have to. I just like the option of being able to, and having choice amongst locations to trade them into for a better price.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

So the revolution to me would be not accumulating anymore discs like I did over the last 15 years or so. It would be nice to take my Xbox One anywhere I want and with a simple internet connection access my games anywhere in the world. Yeah I get that some places do not have internet so being able to play offline would be a nice benefit. This is where my term "pig headed" comes into play. In the last 5-10 years how many places have you been to that do not have internet access? In the next 5-10 years how may of those places do you think will still not have internet? Come on people it just isnt a valid argument to me. It is something to gripe about.

Using your example, isn't it just as easy to take your console somewhere and then play those same games without an Internet connection? As for me personally, I've been tons of places in the last decade that did not have Internet.
When I was stuck at Camp Shelby in Mississippi for several months before being deployed. Then at Kuwait, and then in Iraq. Granted, those are extreme cases, but hey, you asked. I'm also going to with my g/f to visit her grandmother in Alabama in a few weeks, and she doesn't have Internet in the mountains either.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

Here is something to think about.

Out of 70 million Xbox owners over 46 million that own the system have Xbox Live. (Reference here: Systems Sold and here Live Subscribers) That is pretty outstanding if you consider the PS3 network being free up to this point. With the new generation that is now an even playing field. Who knows how many out of those 70 million have internet access as well. I would be willing to bet it is a rather large amount.

That is certainly a large number, depending on how you look at it. Numbers can always be misleading. 70 million Xbox owners, does that count for 70 million unique owners, or are the people who had to buy multiple Xbox's counted more than once? Either way, I don't see it as that impressive since if you bought an Xbox, you are pretty much forced to pay for Live unless you only want to play single player games. You can't even use the browser or stream videos without paying for Live.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

I can understand peoples excitement with the PS4's support of indie game developers. Microsoft has support for them as well but it costs more. Does that keep a lot the indie developers away? You betcha!

Do most Indie games fail? Sure. But, you mentioned you wanted a revolution in gaming. The DRM thing in my opinion would create more business as usual. It would create a safety net for developers. If you make a game with limited replay value, no big deal. Everyone still has to pay you full price to play that game. The way I view used games is simple. If I sell my Z, I do not have to go back to Nissan and give them a cut. Why should a used game be any different? Developers are trying to shift the risk onto the consumers. Its their problem if they buy a bad game and they have no way to recoup any of their losses. Developers are the business, if they can't make a profitable game, they need to learn to cut their costs and create better games more efficiently that people will not want to resell. Adding Indie developers brings in new talent and new ideas, not just ideas on how to take more money from consumers.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

Back to a little Business 101 here. The number 1 goal of any business should be making money, and keeping a money flow in the realm of profits, at least that's what I would do. Microsoft any Sony alike have lost their shirts on the last generation. Read this: 360 and PS3 loses

If we have another 8-10 years of those losses I do not think we will see another round of these debates. 99% of indie games are flops just like the movies. Why eat up resources catering to everyone that can do some simple 2D or 3D animations. Lets charge some money and weed out some of the wastes of time and server space.

Maybe that is why Microsoft went with a little cheaper RAM (DDR3) and a slightly lower performing GPU even though it is currently a 150.00 unit. Maybe they will make 5.00 off the new systems. Shame on them right?

I am blown away by so many people thinking things should be free. If everything was free we wouldnt have the things we have today.

Luckily both of these companies have massive revenue in other sectors. This sector will not last for ever though if it continues to be a money pit.
I hope one of these two companies set themselves up for some profit this time around so we can continue to have these items of entertainment.

They may be losing money on the actual console itself, but they make that up in other areas.
Sony still selling PS3s at a loss | PLAY Magazine
Initially, Sony was losing 13 cents per dollar on the PS3, they drove that down to 6 cents per dollar. So they're currently only losing 18 dollars per PS3 sold. That is on the console only. They make up a lot of money selling extra controllers, etc. They also make money selling the licensing to developers. Having a system also allows them to keep their first party studios in business, which also makes money. They sell the consoles at a loss, so they can make up their money from selling you games and accessories.

I also don't think Sony is wasting massive resources on Indies, I think they're just not getting in their way.

I don't think anything should be free, and neither do Sony or Microsoft. They're businesses, and they've calculated the risks. They've felt that taking a small loss on the console is easily made up elsewhere. An 18 dollar loss per console is not a big one. Do you really think that a controller costs them 50 dollars to make? They sell you one controller and they've most likely at least broken even. Everything after that second controller is profit, including licensing fees from third parties.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

Good its hard to read someones text and know their attitude/demeanor. I love the input man it allows me to come back with more response to questions others may have but not asked. SO heres some more spice for your

All in all, I agree with a lot of your points. You have certainly spent a lot of time in your research. As you said before there's more than one way to skin this cat. Which way works best will be playing out over the next few months. If anything, the fact that people can argue and debate it so much indicates how close the two products actually are.

Mr&Mrs · 06-21-2013, 02:17 AM

Can anyone (and be honest) that has not received Rep points from me yet shoot me a PM and let me know. The response to the thread has been great but I have gotten lost with the 24 hour restriction on giving out the points.

Thanks!

theDreamer · 06-21-2013, 08:44 AM

NSFW

( Click to show/hide )

frost · 06-21-2013, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by theDreamer

NSFW

( Click to show/hide )

UNKNOWN_370 · 06-21-2013, 09:12 AM

Playstation 4 FTW... but Ask any gamer... Any real gamer. You're not a true gamer till you own both systems.

coolvans1988 · 06-21-2013, 10:50 AM

i preordered both.
Each side has their pros with the exclusive titles.

saber · 06-21-2013, 11:39 AM

Nintendo has backwards compatibility because their sh*t hasn't changed since the Wii was released.

WiiU will make back all of their developer cost because there was no development

Smash Brothers got weird on the Wii. That controller...goodness that was awkward.

SS_Firehawk · 06-21-2013, 02:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by saber

Nintendo has backwards compatibility because their sh*t hasn't changed since the Wii was released.

WiiU will make back all of their developer cost because there was no development

Smash Brothers got weird on the Wii. That controller...goodness that was awkward.

Their power PC architecture is still the same, the GPU is based on a 4770. That did change, but their old GPU's were based on ATI chips. The Wii was basically a hotrodded Gamecube with slight improvements. The Wii U only carried over the CPU architecture, but the GPU was a definite improvement.

Now to comment on not having internet. That is a big deal for Military. There are field ops, missions, deployments, secure areas, and so many other scenarios that just don't fit in to "must have internet 1x a day" You can't plug an Xbox into NIPR and expect to not get that $hit forcibly taken from you. The firewalls are already blocking well known gaming ports. Not only that port security will lock that switchport before it could even try to send traffic. If the MAC isn't recognized, it's not passing traffic. If there is somehow a Wifi hotspot in your location, it doesn't allow xbox or Steam connections, not even youtube. Major installations have internet options, but it's expensive and slow can't begin to describe the bandwidth limitations. I know service starts at at least $90 for 30 days of service. Not only that, but when the entire installation goes into a blackout period, your internet goes too. Xbox was not just alienating service members, but civilian contractors too. That number is in the millions.

The cloud computing effort is something that will be implemented at the developer level. If a game requires the resources, it will be online only or some features will not be available unless online.

I'm also not one to trade games, but I can see why people do it. There are better ways to combat piracy. Their implementation was too draconian in my opinion. I think one way of handling it is still using a pairing method, but also using a method for users who can't plug their consoles in to a network. After 30 days of play without pairing the disk to your account, make it a requirement. Maybe a key generator that spits out a hash you can send to Xbox to add to your live account and in return, they send you a corresponding hash you input to your console. It's just an idea, but it at least has options. Granted anything is hackable to whatever they use has to be seriously strong and have a lock out period to prevent brute forcing.

Sandman · 06-21-2013, 02:44 PM

While the 24 hour check-in seemed excessive (1 or 2 times a month would have accomplished the same thing), the fact that Microsoft changed their policies is a little disappointing. I hope they offer a separate xbox live account that has the new stuff so the people that actually understood what they were trying to do can enjoy it. The family/friends sharing system would have been a much better feature than being able to buy/play a used game without limitations.

(Picture NSFW *bad words)

Mr&Mrs · 06-21-2013, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Their power PC architecture is still the same, the GPU is based on a 4770. That did change, but their old GPU's were based on ATI chips. The Wii was basically a hotrodded Gamecube with slight improvements. The Wii U only carried over the CPU architecture, but the GPU was a definite improvement.

Now to comment on not having internet. That is a big deal for Military. There are field ops, missions, deployments, secure areas, and so many other scenarios that just don't fit in to "must have internet 1x a day" You can't plug an Xbox into NIPR and expect to not get that $hit forcibly taken from you. The firewalls are already blocking well known gaming ports. Not only that port security will lock that switchport before it could even try to send traffic. If the MAC isn't recognized, it's not passing traffic. If there is somehow a Wifi hotspot in your location, it doesn't allow xbox or Steam connections, not even youtube. Major installations have internet options, but it's expensive and slow can't begin to describe the bandwidth limitations. I know service starts at at least $90 for 30 days of service. Not only that, but when the entire installation goes into a blackout period, your internet goes too. Xbox was not just alienating service members, but civilian contractors too. That number is in the millions.

The cloud computing effort is something that will be implemented at the developer level. If a game requires the resources, it will be online only or some features will not be available unless online.

I'm also not one to trade games, but I can see why people do it. There are better ways to combat piracy. Their implementation was too draconian in my opinion. I think one way of handling it is still using a pairing method, but also using a method for users who can't plug their consoles in to a network. After 30 days of play without pairing the disk to your account, make it a requirement. Maybe a key generator that spits out a hash you can send to Xbox to add to your live account and in return, they send you a corresponding hash you input to your console. It's just an idea, but it at least has options. Granted anything is hackable to whatever they use has to be seriously strong and have a lock out period to prevent brute forcing.

I feel you on the military issue but again im sure Microsoft knew that, it is very obvious. They have options though the best being a PS4 to get the newest tech. Or the Xbox 360 which is going to have continued support with new games for a while. Also I feel your numbers are a little inflated Deployments as of Dec. 31, 2012 Even though that does not count contractors I do not think it is in the millions.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sandman

While the 24 hour check-in seemed excessive (1 or 2 times a month would have accomplished the same thing), the fact that Microsoft changed their policies is a little disappointing. I hope they offer a separate xbox live account that has the new stuff so the people that actually understood what they were trying to do can enjoy it. The family/friends sharing system would have been a much better feature than being able to buy/play a used game without limitations.

Can the OP or a mod make this a NSFW spoiler please. I wish I had not clicked that at work!

Sandman · 06-21-2013, 05:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mr&Mrs

Can the OP or a mod make this a NSFW spoiler please. I wish I had not clicked that at work!

done

saber · 06-21-2013, 03:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Their power PC architecture is still the same, the GPU is based on a 4770. That did change, but their old GPU's were based on ATI chips. The Wii was basically a hotrodded Gamecube with slight improvements. The Wii U only carried over the CPU architecture, but the GPU was a definite improvement.

I was actually being facetious / making a joke, but okay

the fact that the CPU architecture stayed the same is exactly why Nintendo can make it backwards compatible. No new issues to deal with the CPU communication!

eastwest2300 · 06-21-2013, 11:43 AM

I personally cant believe the wii is still around.

View Poll Results: Which System Will You Be Choosing?
Xbox One Hands Down	20	20.00%
PS4 Hands Down	49	49.00%
Xbox One by a Smidge	10	10.00%
PS4 by a Smidge	3	3.00%
Im Going to Wait for Consumer Reviews	11	11.00%
My Xbox 360 or PS3 is all I Need	7	7.00%
Voters: 100. You may not vote on this poll

06-21-2013, 02:17 AM	#4 (permalink)
Mr&Mrs A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,207 Drives: RZ34 Rep Power: 31941	Can anyone (and be honest) that has not received Rep points from me yet shoot me a PM and let me know. The response to the thread has been great but I have gotten lost with the 24 hour restriction on giving out the points. Thanks! __________________ Project Z <--Click - Check out the link too many mods to list!

06-21-2013, 08:44 AM	#5 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4211	*NSFW* ( Click to show/hide ) __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

06-21-2013, 09:12 AM	#7 (permalink)
UNKNOWN_370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: ny'r livn in tx Posts: 8,687 Drives: well over 130m.p.h. Rep Power: 14859	Playstation 4 FTW... but Ask any gamer... Any real gamer. You're not a true gamer till you own both systems. __________________ Favorite Quote. "I'm not gonna kill you... I'm just gonna Bash Your Face In" Jack Nicholson-"The Shining". 1980

06-21-2013, 11:39 AM	#9 (permalink)
saber chew chew chew Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: West Coast Posts: 1,430 Drives: WRX Rep Power: 26	Nintendo has backwards compatibility because their sht hasn't changed since the Wii was released. WiiU will make back all of their developer cost because there was no development Smash Brothers got weird on the Wii. That controller...goodness that was awkward. __________________ 魂の中にある一条の光を信じて*

06-21-2013, 10:50 AM	#8 (permalink)
coolvans1988 Enthusiast Member Join Date: Oct 2012 Location: NA Posts: 402 Drives: 2013 370z PW A/T Rep Power: 13	i preordered both. Each side has their pros with the exclusive titles.

06-21-2013, 11:43 AM	#15 (permalink)
eastwest2300 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: South FL Posts: 91,033 Drives: '16QX70/'21 Supra3.0 Rep Power: 2684552	I personally cant believe the wii is still around. __________________ Infiniti QX70 & Toyota Supra 3.0 Premium

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Gaming PC!	bullitt5897	Misc Items for sale (No Z stuff)	2	06-04-2013 09:55 PM
Gaming computer only needs CPU	bigaudiofanat	Misc Items for sale (No Z stuff)	15	10-03-2012 05:59 PM
Custom gaming pc	TROOPER	Misc Items for sale (No Z stuff)	7	01-27-2012 04:53 PM
Gaming PC	USMCASA	Misc Items for sale (No Z stuff)	12	03-01-2011 09:00 AM
Getting back into gaming	bigaudiofanat	The Lounge (Off Topic)	20	09-15-2010 03:29 PM