Nice! It being a S&W I am sure it is a quality piece. Did it come with three PMAGs?

Only One PMAG...

I ended up ordering Some Magpul stuff when I ordered the rifle to accessorize it:yum:

Still undecided on which light and which optics

I had an Apex Tactical FRE on order. It was supposed to ship yesterday, but conversation with Randy Lee indicated that he's been finding that that new extractor isn't helping as reliably on the Gen 3 9mm Glocks. He's developing an extractor specifically for the Gen 3 - likely available in about 2 weeks - , so I'm waiting on that. Going to fix the Glock, then sell it unless I just can't shoot the PPQ. My LGS was able to find a PPQ in 9mm for me, should be here today or tomorrow. De Santis Speed scabbard on order as well as a couple of magazines.

On Friday I picked up the PPQ that my LGS found for me ($525 +tax). Nice gun. I took some measurements with my Lyman electronic trigger gauge:

• M&P 9L w/DCAEK (stock trigger return spring) - 4 lb 6 oz
• Glock 19 with LW 3.5 conncector (about 1000 rounds) - 5 lbs 9 oz
• Stock PPQ 9mm (50 dry fires) - 5 lb 7 oz

Some observations:

• The grip on the PPQ makes the G19 grip feel kind of blocky. It makes the M&P feel even more so.
• I find that with my normal grip, my thumb rests below the slide stop lever. That seems to worry some people because it extends farther back and they're afraid it will get inadvertently pressed.
• Takedown of the PPQ is conventional, unlike the M&P which is a little wonky.
• The PPQ "feels" like a more substantial gun than either the Glock or the M&P. Very subjective, but related (for me) to how much it rattles, smoothness of action...stuff like that.
• The PPQ does indeed have a nice crisp let-off. The Glock is quite a bit creepier by comparison. Neither one is as good as the M&P with the DCAEK. That pistol has a lighter trigger because I elected not to install the heavier trigger return spring that came with the Apex kit.

PPQ without magazine weighs 1 lb 5.2 oz. My Glock 19 weighs 1 lb 5.4 oz. The M&P (long slide) weighs 1 lb 9.2 oz. This kind of surprised me. The PPQ feels like it would be heavier than the Glock.

I found a nice De Santis Speed Scabbard at Amazon for $52, no tax or shipping. It fits the PPQ well, retains it well too, for a leather holster. I'll probably make a Kydex holster for it this weekend.

The gun comes with two magazines and some kind of hokey loader that looks like the one that came with my Glock. It will have to work pretty damn well for me to throw away my MagLuLa. I have a couple of 17-round mags on the way.


I got out to shoot the PPQ today. I shot it with my Glock 19 (5.5 lb trigger pull) and my M&P 9L (4.5 lb trigger pull). By no means should anyone consider this any kind of "review". They're just my non-expert observations.

After some slow fire with the PPQ to warm up, I found it to be extremely accurate from 7 yards and easy to keep within a 4 inch circle. I put it on par with the G19 and slightly better than the M&P. I attribute that largely to the crappy stock sights I have on the M&P.

Others have mentioned that the PPQ has a higher bore axis than either the M&P or the Glock. I tried to pay close attention to muzzle flip with each of the three guns. Maybe I could perceive a little more with the PPQ, but I didn't find it in any way intrusive. I found it easy to control, comfortable grip. A lot has been made of the pre-travel and reset on that gun -- too short to be a safe carry gun. I noticed nothing but I don't feel for the reset when I shoot, I just let it out to the end of its travel trying to remember to not let my finger come off the trigger.

I tried some (relatively) rapid fire strings. Below is representative of what I (inexpertly) achieved. 7 yards, 6 shots from low ready. Timed from Surefire app on iPhone.

PPQ -- 2.85 seconds
http://SSEquine.net/ppq.JPG

M&P 9L -- 2.75 seconds
http://SSEquine.net/smith.JPG

Glock 19 -- 2.39 seconds
http://SSEquine.net/glock.JPG

Even more fun like this

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Nice looking sound suppressor. I am afraid that once I get one, I won't be able to stop...that would cut into my golf budget :)

You won't. I bought a 556-212 for my M4...


...that was to be my one and only NFA purchase...


...I am now waiting on an SBR, Spectre II, and another 556-212, and I am trying to stop. I am. I really am. :wtf2:

so i got my tarus judge love it!

Here's my two favorite toys in my stable.

Many people feel that the M4 must be clean--absurdly so--to function.

To prove this notion wrong, putting the rubber to the road, I took my Noveske 14.5" Midlength M4 to Viking Tactics Carbine 1.5 course.

The course was excellent, instruction world-class, and I highly recommend this to ANYONE who is ready to take their training to the next level. Many people in attendance from local SWAT to Force Recon learned new things, techniques, etc. and everyone had a great time! Huge +1 for Viking Tactics!

Anyway, back to the M4, since that's what this sub-section is about...

We fired (well, I fired) just shy of 1700 rounds through my M4 over the 3 day course.

I began with a clean, properly lubricated weapon. I used MPro-7 LPX.

That's it.

There was no wiping, cleaning, spitting into the BCG, nothing. I just "forgot" to do a damn thing for the weapon (except to lube the switchblock and move it around to prevent carbon from freezing it...which turned out to be pointless. The 2nd and 3rd day I just left it alone, and it was just fine when I got home, Noveske is right---don't lube it, just move it every few hundred rounds and you will be G2G).

The results?

2 failures.

The first happened toward the 500 round mark. The weapon had locked back on an empty chamber (I glanced), and when I slammed a new mag home and pressed the bolt release, I got a double-feed. Was the first round in the mag dis-lodged coming out of my mag-pouch and thrown into the chamber and a second one fed? I don't know. I can't blame this on the rifle, though, as it locked back on empty, and the problem came when a new mag was inserted. Mag failure? User error? I don't know. It never happened again.

The second failure occurred on the last few hundred rounds of the course. I rode the charging handle after a mag-change during an administrative reload after I had shot a drill. Again, user error.

Other than that, sewing machine. It always locked back on an empty mag, etc. Flawless.


Buy a quality AR, and you won't have to be such a prude about keeping it clean. Just lube it every few thousand rounds or so, and it seems G2G. The bolt would fully seat when gently dry-cycling the weapon, after I got home, btw.

Here is what the weapon looked like when I got home today and broke it down:

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Others had a jam or two every now and then, most who had feed issues were using USGI mags. One person started with what was probably a dry weapon, and began having failures at around the 6-700 round mark. It was lubed and forgotten for the rest of the course and did fine. Another person somehow got something in the firing-pin "channel". It was cleared on the bench. We do not know what it was. Other than that, all of our weapons ran just fine. Most were LWRC, BCM, DD, Colt, and others. There were also a few quality self-built rifles, and one RRA. Ammo ranged from Wolf to Lake City M855.

As a whole, there were no "problem children" AR's, and only the guy who ran his dry, and the firing-pin channel blockage caused weapons to be down for more than a few seconds on the line. All other stoppages were cleared quickly, and there were precious few of those. There were far more user errors, than there were weapon-failures (Failure to seat mag, forgetting to charge weapon, etc. etc.)

Over-all, the whole course re-affirmed my opinion that the M4 is a helluva weapon, and plenty durable.
Learning happening. - YouTube

Anyway, on to clean-up...


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I've had the same experience at two different 2500-round TriCon courses with Jeff Gonzales. Jeff usually suggests that people try this so that his students can get an idea of how their rifles will run when neglected for whatever reason. Last year, my Noveske 16 inch mid-length went the full course with only lube when I could start to feel the bolt dragging. This past October, I used my 11.5 SBR with Noveske upper/lower, BCM BCG and BCM barrel and didn't lube it until the third day when I dripped a little SLIP onto the bolt. Not a single malfunction of any kind.

The only other rifles in either course that didn't require any mid-course "attention" was my buddy's 16 inch Noveske and three guys that were shooting Huldra gas piston guns. I see those Huldras a lot around here since Fleet Farm HQ is located here and Stewart Mills (owner of the brand) shot both courses.

My experience does indeed reinforce for me that there are differences in functionality between upper-tier rifles and the rest of the pack. I also see a lot of DPMS rifles around here since DPMS HQ is also located pretty close by (about 60 miles south). They tend to be...problematic...when pushed hard, as is true of the Bushmasters that some of the local police agencies use and RRAs that the local Gander Mountain pushes so hard.

Speaking of Stewart Mills and Mills Fleet Farm...

For those of you that don't know have one in your state (they're mostly just upper midwest), it's a large-scale store that sells a little bit of everything - farm suppies, hardware, lumber, housewares, sporting goods, automotive etc. As Stewart has become more interested in shooting over the last few years, we've seen Fleet Farm become increasingly more firearms-oriented. He developed the Huldra line of gas-piston rifles and expanded the firearms sections of their stores to include a wide array of "tactical" gear, including such things as the full line of MagPul accessories...things that aren't found at Gander Mountain or Cabelas, for example.

As part of that new-found enthusiasm, Fleet is in the final stages of completing a state-of-the-art 10-lane 50 yard indoor range here. Should be opening within the next couple of weeks. It will include regular "tactical" instruction rather than the usual paradigm of just standing behind the booth and firing away. It should be a great opportunity to work drills year-round...an important consideration here in Minnesota where outdoor winter shooting can be...challenging. I have a couple of buddies that are cops and firearms trainers. They have "Northern Command Training", and this indoor range will be their new headquarters. Good times.



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My new found hobby... Instead of a twin turbo kit build, I decided to invest in what is below. :icon14:

Top to bottom...

Remington 700 Target Tactical .308 - Vortex Scope, Larue Picatinny Rail & Low Profile Scope Mounts, Harris Bipod

Remington 870 Tactical 12 Gauge

Ruger 10/22 - Timney 3lb Trigger + Assembly, Hogue Olive Drab Stock, Larue Picatinny Rail, Burris Fastfire III Red Dot Sight

Daniels Defense M4 5.56 - Daniels Defense Omega Rail, Aimpoint Comp M4S Red Dot, Magpul Stock & Trigger Guard, Troy Flip-down Rear Battle Sight, TangoDown Fore-grip

FN SCAR 16S 5.56 - Magpul Selector Switch, Larue ACOG Mount, TangoDown Fore-grip, Trijicon TA-31 ACOG Sight

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I have OCD with my rifles... I put 50 rounds through it and I'm home tearing it apart and going over it with a white glove. Probably a little over-kill, but hey.. can't hurt and the M4 gets very dirty. One reason I got the SCAR... Shoots cleaner. Good to know that they are very reliable weapons, though.

Nice collection! I happened to go to the gun store today looking at a SCAR 16S, but the sales guy said that standard AR mags (Magpul is mostly what I have) won't work with it. Is that a standard Magpul PMAG? Was he wrong?

Yes, he's wrong. The old PMAG's won't work... The Gen3 PMAGS (newest ones) will work. Even the older PMAG's can be modified to work with the SCAR... All you need is a dremel and it takes literally 10 seconds.

Video shows you how to do it: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rDmM0eN8jhc

why not get the scar in 308?

Because I would never shoot it... Ammo is too expensive.

With that being said... It's definitely on my "to be bought" list. Already have my eye on a flat dark earth one at a local shop, but they have it way overpriced at 3k.

I like the SCAR in photos, but every time I see it in person it disappoints. The mis-matching FDE just isn't cutting it for me. I thought about getting one before, but LWRC is the shiznit and I've been very patiently waiting for my damn M6IC since march.

its sad that the 308 in black is typically 3-4 hundred dollars cheaper than 308 in fde

If I were to get a .308 carbine I would go with a LWRC REPR.

REPR is undoubtedly one of the most accurate .308 carbines you can buy. and undoubtedly one of the porkiest. that thing is heavy.

I don't think you can compare the REPR to Scar17s. they just aren't made with the same intended purpose.
To quote my friend on this comparison, "Do you want a heavy precision rifle or a lightweight battle rifle?" "Either way, you end up with a precision rifle built well-enough to be used in combat(REPR) or a battle rifle built well-enough to be used for precision.(SCAR)"

For sure I agree with all your points. From my perspective if I were to ever be in a situation where I needed to use a rifle to protect myself, I would undoubtedly reach for my 5.56 DI AR. I am sure there are situations where soldiers need the power and accuracy of the .308 but to me an effective assault rifle would use lighter, more controllable ammo like the 5.56. One can carry a lot more ammo and the heavier REPR's recoil isn't ideal IMO.

With that being said I see either a Sako or Accuracy International (or even a Remington) .308 bolt-action rifle in my future.

My point is that I won't be buying a SCAR 17S or REPR anytime soon...

so applied for my permit so next now that i have my tarus judge next will be the XDS anyone have one yet?

Same decision I had to make, Upgrade the car or the Arsenal :happydance:

The word from the DOJ is that they have finally lifted their hiring freeze and among other new hires, have added 9 new NFA examiners to the 10 that are already working.

That sounds like good news for those of us who aspire to NFA weapons. However, the more paranoid among us might look with alarm at the rumor that Obama is looking at reclassifying ALL "assault weapons" as Title II firearms under the GCA. At issue within the adminstration is whether or not he can do that by Executive Order. One other question is whether or not any new AWB will have a grandfather clause for weapons existing at the time of the ban.

Historically, firearms under the NFA have been left out of the previous AWB or other federal regulation. My personal approach has been to send in Form 1's for a couple of receivers I have sitting around. They're applied for as 11.5 SBR's, even though I may put 16 inch (or other length) barrels on them. While I was at the Sheriff's office, I also had them print up several additional fingerprint cards and I'm contemplating getting NFA transfer stamps as 11.5 inch SBRs for at least one or two of my current 16 inch rifles.

Interesting times we live in.

Personally I'd go for a 5.56 AR set up for CQ stuff and a bolt-action .308 for anything longer-range, like someone mentioned above. Or if you're worried about very long range and/or hardened targets, you could replace the .308 with a bolt-action .300 WinMag or .338 Lapua. I just don't see much utility (as a ratio to inconvenience/cost/weight) to .308 or larger caliber semis, esp given they're generally slightly-less-accurate than their bolt-action counterparts.

5.56 is ballistically bad for CQB imho. I'd look into 300 blackout and 6.8 if you don't want your rounds going through your target like a speeding needle. Plus you can push 122 gr rounds over 40-77 grain rounds which definately hit harder. Even the new m855a1 ammo for 5.56 cant compare to these rounds for stopping power.
IMHO, if you need OTM ammo to stop people well instead of generic FMJ rifle rounds. It's not a good defense round unless you can obtain an OTM rounds cheaply. 5.56 otm ammo is expensive. Silver state is awesome ammo at a good price for the 5.56, but currently, anything worth putting into a 5.56 rifle for CQB is sold out and prices are upmarket. For that i'd support a round that with enough sales, prices will drop and you can get more effective stopping power with a basic round. 6.8 and .300blackout have devastating affects on targets both CQ and LR.

How about a grendal or .50 beawulf

Great rounds but in terms of good firearms selection, those calibers are alot more specialized then the two I mentioned. .50 beowolf are ultimate stopping power rounds but SHTF scenario rifle it wont make a great round. due to limited ammo capacity/availability, price and the weight factor. As far as 6.5 grendel I presume? Try finding an AR now that has an upper for that round? They are quickly becoming scarce. It came in and out like the wind on AR platforms. On a bolt action, you definitely will find a variety of those calibers in solid accurate guns.

6.8 and .300 blackout aren't the most available rounds either, but the market place is dramatically growing for it. 6.8 barrett mags are 30 rounds. Which is equal to 5.56 mags. Or you can replace the followers on 5.56 and get 25/26/28 rounds depending.
.300 blackout fits in all 5.56 mags and drums. So you get higher versatility with .300 blackout. All you need is a new barrel.

Us court of appeals just said illinois ban on concealed weapons is unconstitutional. :woot: about time.

I'll be joining this discussion.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SGH-I747 using Tapatalk 2

I agree. Plenty of good self defense ammo available in .223 and 5.56.

:iagree: .300 blackout fits in AR mags and drums. lol :stirthepot:

Using cheap FMJ ammo, any caliber is dismal compared to premium ammo. Premium 5.56 does just fine, and costs the same or less as other premium caliber ammo. Difference is you can get cheaper practice ammo in 5.56, and training trumps gear any and every day of the week.

20 rds - 5.56mm Bonded Winchester Ranger 64GR JSP Ammo RA556B | SGAmmo.com

Ammo To Go : 20rds - 5.56 Silver State Armory 70gr. Barnes Lead Free TSX BT Ammo [SSA70GREEN] - $23.95

Ammo To Go : 50rds - 5.56 Nato Black Hills Barnes TSX 50gr. Hollow Point Ammo [D556N1] - $69.95

Me personally? I bought 1300 rounds of 64gr Speer Gold Dot 2012 LE ammunition and called it good. I paid $18/20 + shipping. Everything else is practice ammo, and that stays in my stash and mags. Why? It runs 2500fps from a 10.5" barrel, it expands to double caliber out to about 200 yards, it's <2MOA accurate, it's low-flash, and it has sealed primers. Very good on barriers, as well. The windshields and car body we shot up with it showed MUCH better performance than M855 and M193, which fragged on the REAR windshield, even. That shocked me. Gold Dot would hold up going through FRONT windshields much better, although it was deflected when shooting from inside of the car to outside targets. That's why if in a car, jam the muzzle through after the first round clears a path through the windshield. Outside shooting in, distance to target makes the deflection a moot point.

Anyway, I am still evaluating the 70gr TSX, but typical performance on game animals is 0.4-0.5" expansion and 24-26" of penetration with 1/2" permanent cavities through muscle, etc. observed. Quick, bloody kills. PM me if you are just dying for pix.

Premium ammo costs similar, training ammo drastically favors 5.56, performance on-target difference between a similarly placed projectile doesn't differ much when both are loaded with good ammunition. Unless you are working around vehicles a lot (greater mass does do better on body panels, etc. in some cases), 300AAC doesn't make sense to me.

Conjugal visit, I already possess the can, but the rifle went pending Aug. 1st.

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Noveske 10.5" CHF chrome-lined barrel
Switchblock
Surefire -212a FH/mount
Surefire 556-212
2MOA T1 in LT751 mount
Noveske factory SBR lower
Geissele SSA trigger
Vltor 7" VIS upper
Surefire M600C Scout in LT offset tucked mount
LT FUG (not pictured)
PIG Slider 1-point sling (not pictured)
Noveske/Troy BUIS
Factory Noveske SBR build with a 12.5" upper (clone of 10.5" upper), 10.5" upper also included (pictured).

Re: the 5.56 CQB debate: yeah it all depends on the ammo. There are obviously superior cartridges, but 5.56 has the (to me, massive) benefit of ubiquity. No matter what kind of zombie scenario you ever find yourself in, if there's a gun store around or an ammo depot to raid, there will be 5.56 in stock :). You can't say that about a lot of the specialty stuff. .308 (aka 7.62x51 NATO) and 9mm (x19) are similarly really solid choices on universal, unending availability anywhere on the planet.

My 5.56 stuff of choice is Hornady 75gr TAP when I have the choice and the dollars to stock it though. But really, M855 works fine and I stock that too for plinking and emergency supplies. Either way it will get the job done. If you don't think it's an effective deterrent or manstopper, I challenge you to select the worst-performing normal 5.56 round you can find and stand 100 yards away while someone unloads a clip of it into your chest :)

No. Actually it depends very little on the ammo. It depends mostly on the ability of the shooter to consistently get rounds on target.

Many people like to obsess over their ammo choice, yet pay little attention to their training and practice. I would much rather put my life in the hands of a well-trained shooter shooting M193 than a casual weekend plinker shooting the most magical self-defense bullet on the market.

I see a lot of people on this forum with some really great hardware. They describe it well and lovingly post pictures of it here for all of us to drool over. I rarely see anyone here post their experience at their recent defensive carbine training course.

The hardware, ammo included is important. The ability to use that hardware effectively is infinitely more important. Before spending much mental effort on which ammo you're going to use in your defensive carbine, I think it's most wise to realistically evaluate your ability to shoot effectively in those scenarios that go beyond punching paper or plinking at tin cans. Go buy 5,000 rounds of .223 and shoot it over the next year. Take at least one defensive carbine course. THEN let's have the discussion about which ammo will kill a human best. Until then, save your money. You're going to be far more likely to just put a lot of expensive ammo past your attacker's 10-ring.