Custom ported and CNC throttle bodies, upper and lower manifolds by Synergy Composite

synolimit · 06-30-2014, 05:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eclipz

You have a custom CAI right? One that matches your TB?

Yeah it's custom.

Not really matching. The TB is 2.48" at its smallest ID point. On that is Z1 post tubes which go around the TB and any 2.5" OD pipe so I'd say their ID is more like 2.6". The sections of 2.5" OD pipe (like stillens cai) and oem MAF section are only 2.35" ID. Then like the MAF post tubes there's more silicon sections that will be 2.6" ID. So it's basically a roller coaster from start to finish.

Megan370z · 06-30-2014, 08:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

Yeah it's custom.

Not really matching. The TB is 2.48" at its smallest ID point. On that is Z1 post tubes which go around the TB and any 2.5" OD pipe so I'd say their ID is more like 2.6". The sections of 2.5" OD pipe (like stillens cai) and oem MAF section are only 2.35" ID. Then like the MAF post tubes there's more silicon sections that will be 2.6" ID. So it's basically a roller coaster from start to finish.

Humm... I forgot you were still using the oem maf size.... there is some power to be gained after your testing with curent setup.

synolimit · 07-01-2014, 03:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan370z

Humm... I forgot you were still using the oem maf size.... there is some power to be gained after your testing with curent setup.

why would pulling the OEM MAF section out gain power? the stillen is the same size. since im not boosted and blow through, id guess as long as the MAF voltage isnt maxed it'd make as much power at 2.35" ID as it would at any other ID no?

Megan370z · 07-01-2014, 05:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

why would pulling the OEM MAF section out gain power? the stillen is the same size. since im not boosted and blow through, id guess as long as the MAF voltage isnt maxed it'd make as much power at 2.35" ID as it would at any other ID no?

no.

since the TBs is now bigger with a slightly smaller shaft, it can flow quite a bit more.
The oem maf tube is your next bottle neck on your system depending if your exhaust can flow freely the new setup.

what can help you understand my point is you don't want vacuum (restriction) into your intake at WOT. if you have a precise tool , I guarantee you there is .

wstar · 07-01-2014, 07:18 AM

Yeah, I don't believe we get the target AFR behavior in open loop mode. Open loop is still really open loop. That said, surely it's at least somewhat influenced by the ECU's learned trims from closed loop when it goes into open? I have no idea, just speculating.

synolimit · 07-01-2014, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Yeah, I don't believe we get the target AFR behavior in open loop mode. Open loop is still really open loop. That said, surely it's at least somewhat influenced by the ECU's learned trims from closed loop when it goes into open? I have no idea, just speculating.

To me closed loop targets 14.5 at xx timing, pretty basic. Open is by itself targeting whatever AFR and timing you're running based off of load and rpm.

wstar · 07-01-2014, 08:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

To me closed loop targets 14.5 at xx timing, pretty basic. Open is by itself targeting whatever AFR and timing you're running based off of load and rpm.

?? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or I don't understand this **** as well as I thought I did. I thought our AFR target maps (the ones you can modify based on rpm/load/whatever) were what it used in closed-loop mode to realtime-tune the fuel trims based on feedback from the upper O2's to reach the desired target AFRs.

I also thought, by definition, "open loop" meant you're running on a fixed set of fuel tables (perhaps including recently-learned trims from closed-loop mode) but *not* using AFR from the upper O2's to modify the fueling in realtime to try to reach a specific target anymore. In other words, closed loop is based on realtime feedback, and open loop isn't.

synolimit · 07-01-2014, 08:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

?? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or I don't understand this **** as well as I thought I did. I thought our AFR target maps (the ones you can modify based on rpm/load/whatever) were what it used in closed-loop mode to realtime-tune the fuel trims based on feedback from the upper O2's to reach the desired target AFRs.

I also thought, by definition, "open loop" meant you're running on a fixed set of fuel tables (perhaps including recently-learned trims from closed-loop mode) but *not* using AFR from the upper O2's to modify the fueling in realtime to try to reach a specific target anymore. In other words, closed loop is based on realtime feedback, and open loop isn't.

Subi is switched. Real time is open loop but with a non wide band O2 it can only read and adjust down to like 11.2afr which is bad when you need to run richer. Maybe nissan is different being NA. Megan should know.

synolimit · 07-01-2014, 07:19 AM

So if I had a stillen cai I'd be even worse off because its 2.35" ID through and through? If I did change it I'd have to be tuned and change it at the tuner since itd be undrivable there. It's a lot of work for possibly little gain. I'd just need ID pipe bigger than then the TB no? I have that all but at the MAF which is about 5", a section that's about 8", a section that's about 5" and a section that's 2.5".

Megan370z · 07-01-2014, 07:43 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

So if I had a stillen cai I'd be even worse off because its 2.35" ID through and through? If I did change it I'd have to be tuned and change it at the tuner since itd be undrivable there. It's a lot of work for possibly little gain. I'd just need ID pipe bigger than then the TB no? I have that all but at the MAF which is about 5", a section that's about 8", a section that's about 5" and a section that's 2.5".

if you say so...

it all has to work together at the end.
I say you are still leaving some power under the table.

im not saying this to be mean ,, just from experience & learning from others

synolimit · 07-01-2014, 08:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan370z

if you say so...

it all has to work together at the end.
I say you are still leaving some power under the table.

im not saying this to be mean ,, just from experience & learning from others

Well picture this, I thought of flow too...

Stillen 2.35" through and through, smooth flow.

Mine 2.5" then 2.35" then 2.5" then 2.35" etc, a little bumpy even though I knife edged the 2.35" sections on both sides.

Possible new cai, 2.5" ID sections where silicon is, then new sections of 2.75" OD. Now I'm not sure of the ID on the 2.75" OD pipe (2.63" i think, 0.11 wall) but I'll have to stretch the silicon sections at the connections. This will make the flow also bumpy as the silicon will be smooth, then open up larger than 2.75", then the air will hit the knife edge of the 2.75" OD pipe. While that's the most cubic inches in size, it'll probably be the least free flowing.

in case you didnt get that i mean this...while id have all sections now bigger than the TB opening, wouldnt this hurt flow some?

Megan370z · 07-01-2014, 10:07 AM

Im in the garage right now using my cell, i will make it short.
I think understand what you just explained but I wouldnt put a bigger maf tube (2.75 OD) than what your intake is. It would just transfer the bottleneck somewhere elese and causing some intake resonance because of the relatively big gap of your last bottom picture.

IMO, your maf tube should be flowing slightly better than your TB. And from your maf to your intake manifold should either be the same or bigger than the flowing capability of your MAF tube. which help with throttle reponse if its a bit bigger

synolimit · 07-01-2014, 03:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Megan370z

Im in the garage right now using my cell, i will make it short.
I think understand what you just explained but I wouldnt put a bigger maf tube (2.75 OD) than what your intake is. It would just transfer the bottleneck somewhere elese and causing some intake resonance because of the relatively big gap of your last bottom picture.

IMO, your maf tube should be flowing slightly better than your TB. And from your maf to your intake manifold should either be the same or bigger than the flowing capability of your MAF tube. which help with throttle reponse if its a bit bigger

But I don't have a choice. The MAF section and some small sections are only 2.35" ID and the bottle neck. The TB is now 2.48". I either replace them with 2.63" ID (2.75" pipe) or leave them alone. I can't make what you made. If I replace all 2.35" sections my cai would roughly be 2.5" with with a few 2.63" sections. As you said to N0SL3N this might be good since the cai will taper into the smallest spot (the TB again).

N0SL3N · 07-01-2014, 10:09 AM

I would think with the intake you would want to have the largest ID at the filter and the smallest at the TB. That way you can increase the velocity of the air flow into the manifold. If you have restricted sections (by the MAFs) you will be creating a vacuum that prevents the maximum amount of air from flowing.

So I would think you want something like 2.75" - 2.5" - 2.35".

Megan370z · 07-01-2014, 10:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by N0SL3N

I would think with the intake you would want to have the largest ID at the filter and the smallest at the TB. That way you can increase the velocity of the air flow into the manifold. If you have restricted sections (by the MAFs) you will be creating a vacuum that prevents the maximum amount of air from flowing.

So I would think you want something like 2.75" - 2.5" - 2.35".

Depend what your goal is . This is partialy true.
If your pre-throttle tube is smaller than the Tb itself and the Maf . You are killing the throttle respond which for an N/a setup isnt something you want.

But I totaly agree from the filter up to the entry of the maf tube. Should be bigger
this is what was done on my custom cai... starting from 3" down to 63.5mm.

07-01-2014, 07:18 AM	#5 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	Yeah, I don't believe we get the target AFR behavior in open loop mode. Open loop is still really open loop. That said, surely it's at least somewhat influenced by the ECU's learned trims from closed loop when it goes into open? I have no idea, just speculating. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

07-01-2014, 07:19 AM	#9 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3389	So if I had a stillen cai I'd be even worse off because its 2.35" ID through and through? If I did change it I'd have to be tuned and change it at the tuner since itd be undrivable there. It's a lot of work for possibly little gain. I'd just need ID pipe bigger than then the TB no? I have that all but at the MAF which is about 5", a section that's about 8", a section that's about 5" and a section that's 2.5". __________________ 13 370z-

07-01-2014, 10:07 AM	#12 (permalink)
Megan370z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Canada Posts: 1,156 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 24	Im in the garage right now using my cell, i will make it short. I think understand what you just explained but I wouldnt put a bigger maf tube (2.75 OD) than what your intake is. It would just transfer the bottleneck somewhere elese and causing some intake resonance because of the relatively big gap of your last bottom picture. IMO, your maf tube should be flowing slightly better than your TB. And from your maf to your intake manifold should either be the same or bigger than the flowing capability of your MAF tube. which help with throttle reponse if its a bit bigger __________________ Megan Journal Click Me ....................One Man Team Motorsport Click Me

07-01-2014, 10:09 AM	#14 (permalink)
N0SL3N Enthusiast Member Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Toronto Posts: 376 Drives: 2009 PG 370z 6MT Rep Power: 35	I would think with the intake you would want to have the largest ID at the filter and the smallest at the TB. That way you can increase the velocity of the air flow into the manifold. If you have restricted sections (by the MAFs) you will be creating a vacuum that prevents the maximum amount of air from flowing. So I would think you want something like 2.75" - 2.5" - 2.35". synolimit likes this. __________________ \| Akuma \| Motordyne \| Z1 \| NST \| CNT \| Stillen \| Avant Garde \| RJM \| Performix \| Tint \| LED \| GTR \| Nissan \|

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