Help Please!

turtle64b · 03-24-2018, 10:03 AM

I need help.... 2012 Stillen SC 370Z w/ A2A.

AFRs are consistently at least +2.0 above normal (cruising around 16-17, sometimes higher)
Startup is extremely bad, to the point of the car stalling out completely (AFRs reading 19-20)
Upon acceleration, AFRs will jump to about 15.5-16 and then fall back down to 14.7 while the engine is under some load, but then steady back out well above normal.
Sometimes at stoplights, the AFRs will bottom out (10.0) and the car will seem to bog down unless I rev it to about 1000 RPM and then it holds steady around 13 (1.5 below normal)
One MAF reads anywhere from 1 volt off of the other to right on the money from idle to under medium load, respectively.

Recent changes:
9# pulley installed 3/12, car ran better than with the 8# pulley without a tune revision. (EDIT: Car was daily driven for 5 days following pulley swap with no issues)
Power steering and tranny cooler installed 3/16-3/17, drove to Baker Infiniti in West Ashley (~15 miles), up to Moncks Corner (~30 miles), and back to North Charleston (~15 miles), zero issues
Yard work Sunday = no driving
Monday morning, problems...

Things done so far:
Tuner says look for vacuum leak,
Charleston Performance Solutions gets me in to pressure test the intake piping. Found both MAFs leaking, fixed that issue. Found a coupler with a small leak, didn't fix yet, but does not impact AFRs since it's before MAFs
Pressure tested the vacuum lines to the boost meter, BOV, and Fuel regulator, solid to 25 lbs, no leaks
Tuner sent me a potential electronic fix via remote tune, but no change
Swapped MAF extension cables

Current Thoughts:
Bad harness - Nope
Bad Gas - maybe? tuned on 93, 0.01% chance I accidentally put 87 in it
Vacuum leak - maybe? would have to be post throttle body and not a vacuum line.

Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you so very much in advance!

UPDATE: MAF sensor abnormality that follows the connector. I have the "gen 2" Stillen extensions on order, arriving Saturday. More to follow.

Another update: Replacement harnesses received, verified <.2 ohms per wire, and they are not the problem. Car seems to be getting worse as it will not even idle for more than about 20 seconds now before dying...
Ironically the MAF connection without the extension reads .2V lower on the 5V supply signal than the one with the harness (4.803 compared to 5.038 with battery voltage at 11.6)

lj909 · 03-24-2018, 10:11 AM

Just a thought but you said you went with the 9lb pulley but didn't tune for it? That would be putting more air in and leaning the car out. I'd think I'd be looking at the tune and getting some data logs before chasing mechanical issues

turtle64b · 03-24-2018, 10:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by lj909

Just a thought but you said you went with the 9lb pulley but didn't tune for it? That would be putting more air in and leaning the car out. I'd think I'd be looking at the tune and getting some data logs before chasing mechanical issues

AFRs all checked out during the week of driving done post-install... Even though there would be more air, it would still be accounted for passing through the MAFs

TopgunZ · 03-24-2018, 12:36 PM

Sounds exactly like a vacuum leak to me. Or maybe the connector to your valve timing got hit while installing pulley. Make sure your engine grounds that connect to the stillen brace are legit too.

You should be running pretty dang lean under wot without a tune from that pulley swap.

turtle64b · 03-24-2018, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

Sounds exactly like a vacuum leak to me. Or maybe the connector to your valve timing got hit while installing pulley. Make sure your engine grounds that connect to the stillen brace are legit too.

You should be running pretty dang lean under wot without a tune from that pulley swap.

The closer I got to WOT, when the car was running semi-safely, the closer my AFRs got to normal. I was at 14ish under medium-heavy load, but I never did WOT. Sebastian sent me a tune rev based on the data that I gave him to try and compensate, but it didn't have any effect on the car...

The second thing I checked was those connectors and they are physically intact and seem fine. Data doesn't show any errors there. The engine is pulling timing and fuel a good bit a good bit. Fuel trims are ~ minus 20-30% and timing is retarded. Pulley install was pain-free and a simple pull of and replace. No banging around or anything like that.

All grounds are tight.

TopgunZ · 03-24-2018, 01:44 PM

A quick and easy way to check for vac leaks is to spray some brake cleaner around the throttle bodies and down around the intake manifold mate-up. If you hear the car pick up idle at all during this then there is a vac leak there.

This will not detect leaks all of the time but like I said it is a quick way to check if your suspect.

turtle64b · 03-24-2018, 03:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

A quick and easy way to check for vac leaks is to spray some brake cleaner around the throttle bodies and down around the intake manifold mate-up. If you hear the car pick up idle at all during this then there is a vac leak there.

This will not detect leaks all of the time but like I said it is a quick way to check if your suspect.

Smoke-tested all the lines, then pressure tested the intake piping up to the manifolds to ~11# with no leaks. I pressure tested all vacuum lines to 25# with no leaks. I can't get the car to even idle for greater than 20 seconds at the moment...

I'm going to revert the car back to my original tune to see if it runs. If not, I may be looking at something major....

With that said, I wouldn't expect something major to manifest the way it did.

turtle64b · 03-24-2018, 05:57 PM

Siphoned and replaced all of the gas, and then flashed back to revision 1 of my tune. Idle started out bad, but got better. Flashed back to revision 5 (current) and the idle started a little rough, but evened out to normal. Took it around the block for some logs, so we'll see! Thank you guys for the inputs!

I'm honestly not sure if it was bad gas or if warming the car up cleared the issue... Once I get a tune rev from Seb, we'll see...

It seems I have unequal flow through the intake Y-pipe. More to follow...

VQStryker · 03-25-2018, 09:50 PM

Have you tried testing if one of the MAF sensors is bad? They are quite sensitive so potential for damage is possible. I hope it was just bad gas but I do not think that would mess with AFR readings. A vacuum leak would make more sense if the car was idling high, sometimes comes with a code too but a code should also be thrown for a bad MAF. hmmmmm.... well, looking forward to this resolution, good luck!

Sounding like it was just bad gas, I'd avoid that gas station if that is the case.

MoulaZ · 03-26-2018, 02:44 AM

Couple of personal observations & questions mate.

1. Are you on a hybrid MAF/SD tune or SD only? If SD only, MAFs having an issue is far less likely.

1a. If you're on an SD only tune, what MAP sensor are you using and where have you tapped into the intake manifold?

2. Whenever me and Seb tried to do a hybrid tune, it always ended with all sorts of hesitations and idling issues. Going back to SD resolved it.

3. I've never seen good equal flow with the A2A pipe, but like I said earlier, it's kinda a non-issue if you're SD only and nothing wrong with your MAP Sensor setup.

4. A suggestion I could make is what my previous Tuner did earlier on which was to bridge the MAF voltage output to each other. Single cable. Effectively makes the MAF voltage signal identical accross both. A good Tuner should still be able to make it work and if nothing else, it'd be curious to see what effect it may have for you. When I was attempting a hybrid tune, this little trick helped quite a bit.

5. I've even gone so far as to chop up my A2A pipe and add 3 honeycomb air straighteners, before the Y & just before the MAFs. Still never saw equal airflow, the airflow just stabilized, but on average I see approx 45-50% more air flowing past the 'outside' run, to the 'inside' run while under low throttle conditions. Under medium to heavy throttle they quickly even out. It definitely helped while attempting a hybrid tune, but SD still won for 'around-town' drivability. The difficulty achieving equal flow across the MAFs was a pet peeve of mine from day 1.

6. Long shot, but way early on, I was getting all sorts of sh*t AFR readings from one bank only. Long story short, it turned out the gasket between Intake Manifold & Lower Plenum had a minuscule tear leading into Cylinder 6. I did pressure test as well, but I didn't find it. Anything past the TBs I usually attributed to air leaking into Cylinders and back out the exhaust. Changed the gasket and it was a night & day difference. AFRs were 100% back on point.

turtle64b · 03-26-2018, 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by VQStryker

Have you tried testing if one of the MAF sensors is bad? They are quite sensitive so potential for damage is possible. I hope it was just bad gas but I do not think that would mess with AFR readings. A vacuum leak would make more sense if the car was idling high, sometimes comes with a code too but a code should also be thrown for a bad MAF. hmmmmm.... well, looking forward to this resolution, good luck!

Sounding like it was just bad gas, I'd avoid that gas station if that is the case.

MAFs are good, swapping around cables and MAFs showed the flow imbalance.
Gas was good. Completely siphoned and replaced with good gas.

Thank you!

turtle64b · 03-26-2018, 10:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MoulaZ

Couple of personal observations & questions mate.

1. Are you on a hybrid MAF/SD tune or SD only? If SD only, MAFs having an issue is far less likely.

1a. If you're on an SD only tune, what MAP sensor are you using and where have you tapped into the intake manifold?

2. Whenever me and Seb tried to do a hybrid tune, it always ended with all sorts of hesitations and idling issues. Going back to SD resolved it.

3. I've never seen good equal flow with the A2A pipe, but like I said earlier, it's kinda a non-issue if you're SD only and nothing wrong with your MAP Sensor setup.

4. A suggestion I could make is what my previous Tuner did earlier on which was to bridge the MAF voltage output to each other. Single cable. Effectively makes the MAF voltage signal identical accross both. A good Tuner should still be able to make it work and if nothing else, it'd be curious to see what effect it may have for you. When I was attempting a hybrid tune, this little trick helped quite a bit.

5. I've even gone so far as to chop up my A2A pipe and add 3 honeycomb air straighteners, before the Y & just before the MAFs. Still never saw equal airflow, the airflow just stabilized, but on average I see approx 45-50% more air flowing past the 'outside' run, to the 'inside' run while under low throttle conditions. Under medium to heavy throttle they quickly even out. It definitely helped while attempting a hybrid tune, but SD still won for 'around-town' drivability. The difficulty achieving equal flow across the MAFs was a pet peeve of mine from day 1.

6. Long shot, but way early on, I was getting all sorts of sh*t AFR readings from one bank only. Long story short, it turned out the gasket between Intake Manifold & Lower Plenum had a minuscule tear leading into Cylinder 6. I did pressure test as well, but I didn't find it. Anything past the TBs I usually attributed to air leaking into Cylinders and back out the exhaust. Changed the gasket and it was a night & day difference. AFRs were 100% back on point.

1. On a hybrid tune, talking with Seb about potentially going straight speed density if the flow/MAF issue can't be resolved and significantly impacts the engine performance/safety.

1a. I have the Omni 4-bar sensor recommended by Seb for this application in the stock MAP sensor location, back driver's side of the manifold.

2/3. Looking in to straight speed density.

4. The only issue with that is the running really rich if you send the higher-flow signal to the ecu. Since flow is not balanced, you really need the average flow from both branches for it to be accurate. Could splicing the wires together cause damage since the voltages would not be equal? Once you get into electronics that small, even small voltage irregularities where they are not supposed to be can be bad.

5. I didn't really look into the logs until now since the car seemed to be running fine. The MAF disparity existed even while the car was running fine under previous tunes, which is weird. I'm thinking that maybe the increased airflow from the 9lb pulley and the Si trim impeller may have caused the greater disparity and therefore made the car perform worse?

6. How did you find the tear? I am trying to avoid tearing down if possible... Trust me, I ill not hesitate to do what must be done, I just feel like an air leak happening all of the time would show in the car idling higher or something like that.

MoulaZ · 03-27-2018, 03:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by turtle64b

1. On a hybrid tune, talking with Seb about potentially going straight speed density if the flow/MAF issue can't be resolved and significantly impacts the engine performance/safety.

1a. I have the Omni 4-bar sensor recommended by Seb for this application in the stock MAP sensor location, back driver's side of the manifold.
Seb recommended I use the SpecialtyZ MAP sensor.

https://specialtyz.com/shop/370z-g37...ensor-kit.html

2/3. Looking in to straight speed density.
You'll be better off. Seb prefers to rely on MAFs but even he's telling me he's finding it hard to tune the SC setups as a hybrid tune. Fortunately for us he also knows how to do a good SD tune, just means more work for him unfortunately.

4. The only issue with that is the running really rich if you send the higher-flow signal to the ecu. Since flow is not balanced, you really need the average flow from both branches for it to be accurate. Could splicing the wires together cause damage since the voltages would not be equal? Once you get into electronics that small, even small voltage irregularities where they are not supposed to be can be bad.
Correct, but that is why when bridging the signal you rely on the AFRs to dial back appropriately, once you're confident what the flow characteristics are under low throttle conditions. Under medium to heavy throttle as I mentioned the flow equalizes across both almost instantly (at least my ECUTek logs showed this), which effectively renders the bridge pointless from there on. It's main purpose really is for helping under normal driving, and low throttle conditions. In addition, with a hybrid MAF/SD tune MAF readings are only used for low throttle conditions, SD takes over for medium to heavy throttle.

5. I didn't really look into the logs until now since the car seemed to be running fine. The MAF disparity existed even while the car was running fine under previous tunes, which is weird. I'm thinking that maybe the increased airflow from the 9lb pulley and the Si trim impeller may have caused the greater disparity and therefore made the car perform worse?
Oh absolutely the increased airflow from both those mods is going to cause you grief. I only have the smaller '9lb' pulley and had issue due to flow with normal driving conditions. It lives for full WOT. I have a feeling even more issues would be solved by adding a second BOV, it's almost like it's just not venting enough unwanted boost causing issues with MAF readings, but that's just a personal theory.

6. How did you find the tear? I am trying to avoid tearing down if possible... Trust me, I ill not hesitate to do what must be done, I just feel like an air leak happening all of the time would show in the car idling higher or something like that. At my wits end, and process of elimination, all the symptoms pointed to a leak and I checked absolutely everything else. So took a chance and it paid off.

Cheers,

turtle64b · 03-27-2018, 11:14 AM

The SpecialtyZ MAP sensor is recommended for the the stock a2w Stillen setup. He recommended the Onmni 4-bar for the a2a setup. I may end up tearing it apart this weekend for a looksie if we can't get it locked in.

Thanks!

MoulaZ · 03-28-2018, 04:37 AM

I'm curious behind his reasoning for the different MAP sensors. I've got both, and he didn't ask me to change over to the other one. Kinda want to try it now, lol.

03-24-2018, 10:03 AM	#1 (permalink)
turtle64b Track Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Granbury, TX Posts: 550 Drives: '11 SC Blue 7AT Rep Power: 3365	Help Please! I need help.... 2012 Stillen SC 370Z w/ A2A. AFRs are consistently at least +2.0 above normal (cruising around 16-17, sometimes higher) Startup is extremely bad, to the point of the car stalling out completely (AFRs reading 19-20) Upon acceleration, AFRs will jump to about 15.5-16 and then fall back down to 14.7 while the engine is under some load, but then steady back out well above normal. Sometimes at stoplights, the AFRs will bottom out (10.0) and the car will seem to bog down unless I rev it to about 1000 RPM and then it holds steady around 13 (1.5 below normal) One MAF reads anywhere from 1 volt off of the other to right on the money from idle to under medium load, respectively. Recent changes: 9# pulley installed 3/12, car ran better than with the 8# pulley without a tune revision. (EDIT: Car was daily driven for 5 days following pulley swap with no issues) Power steering and tranny cooler installed 3/16-3/17, drove to Baker Infiniti in West Ashley (~15 miles), up to Moncks Corner (~30 miles), and back to North Charleston (~15 miles), zero issues Yard work Sunday = no driving Monday morning, problems... Things done so far: Tuner says look for vacuum leak, Charleston Performance Solutions gets me in to pressure test the intake piping. Found both MAFs leaking, fixed that issue. Found a coupler with a small leak, didn't fix yet, but does not impact AFRs since it's before MAFs Pressure tested the vacuum lines to the boost meter, BOV, and Fuel regulator, solid to 25 lbs, no leaks Tuner sent me a potential electronic fix via remote tune, but no change Swapped MAF extension cables Current Thoughts: Bad harness - Nope Bad Gas - maybe? tuned on 93, 0.01% chance I accidentally put 87 in it Vacuum leak - maybe? would have to be post throttle body and not a vacuum line. Does anyone have any ideas? Thank you so very much in advance! UPDATE: MAF sensor abnormality that follows the connector. I have the "gen 2" Stillen extensions on order, arriving Saturday. More to follow. Another update: Replacement harnesses received, verified <.2 ohms per wire, and they are not the problem. Car seems to be getting worse as it will not even idle for more than about 20 seconds now before dying... Ironically the MAF connection without the extension reads .2V lower on the 5V supply signal than the one with the harness (4.803 compared to 5.038 with battery voltage at 11.6) Last edited by turtle64b; 03-24-2018 at 10:26 AM.

03-24-2018, 10:11 AM	#2 (permalink)
lj909 Track Member Join Date: May 2014 Location: Riverside Posts: 584 Drives: 40th 370Z Rep Power: 11	Just a thought but you said you went with the 9lb pulley but didn't tune for it? That would be putting more air in and leaning the car out. I'd think I'd be looking at the tune and getting some data logs before chasing mechanical issues __________________ PW 07 HR350Z R.I.P. Totaled by 82yr old woman 2010 40th Anniversary 370Z

03-24-2018, 12:36 PM	#4 (permalink)
TopgunZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,651 Drives: 06 350Z , 09 370Z MT Rep Power: 6833	Sounds exactly like a vacuum leak to me. Or maybe the connector to your valve timing got hit while installing pulley. Make sure your engine grounds that connect to the stillen brace are legit too. You should be running pretty dang lean under wot without a tune from that pulley swap. __________________ ROTREX SUPERCHARGER TUNER KITS - $6799/ CUSTOM STILLEN AIR TO AIR KITS -$2100/ 700+ WHP!! WWW.TOPGUNSPEEDWORKS.COM

03-24-2018, 01:44 PM	#6 (permalink)
TopgunZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,651 Drives: 06 350Z , 09 370Z MT Rep Power: 6833	A quick and easy way to check for vac leaks is to spray some brake cleaner around the throttle bodies and down around the intake manifold mate-up. If you hear the car pick up idle at all during this then there is a vac leak there. This will not detect leaks all of the time but like I said it is a quick way to check if your suspect. VQStryker likes this. __________________ ROTREX SUPERCHARGER TUNER KITS - $6799/ CUSTOM STILLEN AIR TO AIR KITS -$2100/ 700+ WHP!! WWW.TOPGUNSPEEDWORKS.COM

03-24-2018, 05:57 PM	#8 (permalink)
turtle64b Track Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Granbury, TX Posts: 550 Drives: '11 SC Blue 7AT Rep Power: 3365	Update Siphoned and replaced all of the gas, and then flashed back to revision 1 of my tune. Idle started out bad, but got better. Flashed back to revision 5 (current) and the idle started a little rough, but evened out to normal. Took it around the block for some logs, so we'll see! Thank you guys for the inputs! I'm honestly not sure if it was bad gas or if warming the car up cleared the issue... Once I get a tune rev from Seb, we'll see... It seems I have unequal flow through the intake Y-pipe. More to follow... Last edited by turtle64b; 03-25-2018 at 11:08 AM.

03-25-2018, 09:50 PM	#9 (permalink)
VQStryker Track Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Texas Age: 35 Posts: 659 Drives: :( Rep Power: 14	Have you tried testing if one of the MAF sensors is bad? They are quite sensitive so potential for damage is possible. I hope it was just bad gas but I do not think that would mess with AFR readings. A vacuum leak would make more sense if the car was idling high, sometimes comes with a code too but a code should also be thrown for a bad MAF. hmmmmm.... well, looking forward to this resolution, good luck! Sounding like it was just bad gas, I'd avoid that gas station if that is the case. __________________ SOLD- Stryker TT super sleeper (12.35 @ 121mph) no gripZ Chance build http://www.the370z.com/members-370z-...ml#post3001583 No Z

03-26-2018, 02:44 AM	#10 (permalink)
MoulaZ Base Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 229 Drives: '09 Z34 BP Turbo V2 Rep Power: 24	Couple of personal observations & questions mate. 1. Are you on a hybrid MAF/SD tune or SD only? If SD only, MAFs having an issue is far less likely. 1a. If you're on an SD only tune, what MAP sensor are you using and where have you tapped into the intake manifold? 2. Whenever me and Seb tried to do a hybrid tune, it always ended with all sorts of hesitations and idling issues. Going back to SD resolved it. 3. I've never seen good equal flow with the A2A pipe, but like I said earlier, it's kinda a non-issue if you're SD only and nothing wrong with your MAP Sensor setup. 4. A suggestion I could make is what my previous Tuner did earlier on which was to bridge the MAF voltage output to each other. Single cable. Effectively makes the MAF voltage signal identical accross both. A good Tuner should still be able to make it work and if nothing else, it'd be curious to see what effect it may have for you. When I was attempting a hybrid tune, this little trick helped quite a bit. 5. I've even gone so far as to chop up my A2A pipe and add 3 honeycomb air straighteners, before the Y & just before the MAFs. Still never saw equal airflow, the airflow just stabilized, but on average I see approx 45-50% more air flowing past the 'outside' run, to the 'inside' run while under low throttle conditions. Under medium to heavy throttle they quickly even out. It definitely helped while attempting a hybrid tune, but SD still won for 'around-town' drivability. The difficulty achieving equal flow across the MAFs was a pet peeve of mine from day 1. 6. Long shot, but way early on, I was getting all sorts of sh*t AFR readings from one bank only. Long story short, it turned out the gasket between Intake Manifold & Lower Plenum had a minuscule tear leading into Cylinder 6. I did pressure test as well, but I didn't find it. Anything past the TBs I usually attributed to air leaking into Cylinders and back out the exhaust. Changed the gasket and it was a night & day difference. AFRs were 100% back on point. StormWhite likes this.

03-27-2018, 11:14 AM	#14 (permalink)
turtle64b Track Member Join Date: Jun 2015 Location: Granbury, TX Posts: 550 Drives: '11 SC Blue 7AT Rep Power: 3365	The SpecialtyZ MAP sensor is recommended for the the stock a2w Stillen setup. He recommended the Onmni 4-bar for the a2a setup. I may end up tearing it apart this weekend for a looksie if we can't get it locked in. Thanks!

03-28-2018, 04:37 AM	#15 (permalink)
MoulaZ Base Member Join Date: Jun 2013 Location: Sydney, Australia Posts: 229 Drives: '09 Z34 BP Turbo V2 Rep Power: 24	I'm curious behind his reasoning for the different MAP sensors. I've got both, and he didn't ask me to change over to the other one. Kinda want to try it now, lol.