Stillen Air to Air setup
 

So since Stillen is the only SC available for the 370z family, I have been looking at how to get this kit up to snub to take on more horsepower at safer operation and reliability to the engine.

It seems kind of simple to me how to accomplish this but I am sure I am missing something here so I will leave it to you guys to fill me in on the areas I am not taking into consideration.

With 3" intake pipes our MAF's will hold the voltage up to around 14psi, which is what you can get with 9psi pulley and the SI impeller.

Below is the drawing for how to do this.

1. Turn compressor to face straight down.
2. Put a 90*, or 2 45*, couplers to get it going sideways.
3. Put a 180* pipe on to feed into the air to air
4. Connect the output of the a2a to a y-pipe. This could be a silicone coupler or actually use the intake filter Y-pipe and plug the maf holes.
5. Place 3" intake piping with the mafs in them in-between the y-pipe and intake manifold.
6. Use a single intake filter off the intake of the compressor using a small piece of pipe or coupler.

Or I was thinking of getting a dual exit A2A and running 2 3" pipes all the way from the ic to the throttle bodies.

I am not sure if the aftercooler can be taken out of the mani, but that would be nice to eliminate pressure drop. If it cant then it can just stay there. Possibly use this in conjunction with a smaller a2a to limit pressure drop.

Suggestions?

Hey Mav (TopgunZ)

http://vignette1.wikia.nocookie.net/...ix=protagonist

I think every minute of such things....:stirthepot:
Can not sleep, and I hope that my "Z" finally is with me ....

Thank you for your idea :tup::tup::tup::tup:

Greetings from the other side of the World
Ivo

No prob. I think this could all be done for very little expense. The thing is that I have the custom 3" intake pipes already in my garage. I don't see how this wouldn't work. Just seems too simple.

didnt someone say they were working on this already up in canada ? With Sasha from BP

if this happens, you could have a decent market for this, anyone who gets the stillen kit ends up wanting more power, if someone designed this as a DIY kit that could be reproduced could make some good $$

You need to figure out how to keep the oem manifold. You do that and it looks good and has gains you will sell it.

Were working on one, but we are keeping the stock manifold, and just pluging off the cooler in the manifold. It wont be done tell the end of aug, ill post it up as soon as its done,

Are you thinking of twin charging your 370Z? Or you just playing around for the fun of it?

Why use the stock manifold? What are going to get out of it besides having a lot more piping to do? It looks to me that it would be much easier the way TopgunZ was thinking.

I like the thought of keeping the stock manifold also, I dont think the Stillen IM can be opened to remove the heat exchanger inside it. Either way you know how I feel WE need to do this! An I still knew EVOHUNTER was working on this we talked about this before my car blew up :/ .

I have this problem where I can't just leave my car alone. So yeah, I am going to see how this project goes.

You can't twin charge a centri sc. It needs to be a pd like my 350 was.

If I can get all the parts I need by the end of this month I can have this done by mid to late July. And I'm even getting married the first week of July! :wtf2:

So are you ditching the BP kit in favor of this experiment?

Almost ditched the whole car and my truck for a roush raptor. I never know whats going on.

The BP kit was taken off about 3 weeks ago. My car is in the shop right now getting the vinyl removed and then Im painting my bumpers and skirts black.

I put on Berk HFC's and JWT intakes.

I will probably do the stillen air to air thing just cuz. :tup:

its more work, more piping this way top gunz is thinking.

Were rotating the blower down 90 degrees, The pipe will go straight down and around the rad into the intercooler and on the driver side.

On the passenger side were running a 3" off the intercooler. this is branching into 2 -3 "pipes up the TBS. my MAFS will be mounted 9"-10" away from the TBS.

If you use the stock manifold, you have more piping, Also, your pipes going up to the TBS will be different lengths, this will cause problems.

the blower gives you no room on the driver side to run a pipe up to the TBS., so a longer pipe would have to be fed through the passenger side, around the front of the motor up to the TBS, The pipe will be 20"s longer than your passenger intake tube.

Interesting, I'm looking forward to seeing how you guys do. Good luck!


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Didnt think of it that way, was thinking is we used a single in dual out intercooler. But your ways sound easier and would be a nicer finish.

Hey Top Gun !!!
Great talking with you ...
Checked out your drawing for the Stillen SC'r.
I actually got that far in my planning with only a few differences.
I was going to use the Stillen Charge Pipe (without the Y) and install the MAF's right before each TB.
I planned to intersect the Stillen Charge Pipe right after the IC out...
Just needed to figure out where to put the IC (a2a) or Heat Exchanger (a2w)
Either in front of, or behind the radiator.
(I think GTM solution was to locate the IC behind the radiator and incorporate new fans).
You are limited in options because of the Stillen Bracket/Pulleys, the radiator brace, and also A/C lines, so you need to consider that as well.
I had also planned to incorporate an ice box in the back thereby utilizing the existing Stillen w2a IC and adding an extra measure of IATcooling for race day.
Your idea of clocking the SC'r 180 out and running a longer runner in to the IC might work...it also would give you some more room to run the SC'r air in and filters.

Hey Guys!
I see a brilliant discussion board!
I let myself love to inspire and be myself and worry for more options.

Am looking forward to the results :tup::tup:

Lol. This is exactly as I had drawn it up. And yeah, no way can you use the driver side throttle body and stock mani.

That "Y" your talking about...Can you use the intake Y pipe? How big is that thing? I was going to just 3D print up some plugs for the maf holes.

Why does the bpv need to recirc back into the intake tube? Ive heard its for idle issues. Isn't this strictly just to keep the sound at a minimal level since the filter and re-digestion by the sc basically act as mufflers.

I would love if somebody could actually answer this as I believe it's the number #1 reason why when you remove it there is a little blip in the idle when coming to a stop.

My bad, I just saw your drawing haaha

exactly how were doing it.

sorry dude.

But i'm sure you could use that Y pipe, I think sasha's just making a custom one. Were also thinking of running a 4" pipe off the intercooler, mount both mafs in the 4" tube, so they have the exact same readings. then a branch off to 2 3" pipes up to the TBS

They do it for emission, noise and the main one is idle, because your mafs are mounted before the BPV, this will throw off your MAF readings.

I'm removing all the vaccum lines to the blower. It will only be the intake tube going into the blower. Your idle will be fine As long as your Mafs are mounted after your BPV. were mounting the BPV on the tube coming out of the IC on the passenger side, before the MAFs, and it will be vented to the Atmosphere .

The HE is inside the IM? Guess to save space?

Why not a better A2W IC, larger core outside of IM, bigger pump, larger, dual pass HE -- water is much better than air at absorbing heat...

Or, if it can be done, figure out how to incorporate a roots or twinscrew (clutch engagement?) and ditch the centrifugal blower altogether.

I know am just daydreaming here... :(

The whole reason for this is because where your MAFS are mounted, this wont help our situation.

Example :

Our Intake temps are read by our MAFS, which are in the front intake tubes, by the air filters.

So For example - Air is pulled through our MAFS, say its 23 degree air temp.
It now hits a extremely hot blower and our is now air is 30 degrees. Air mafs still think its 23 degrees, Now the air hits our Manifold intercooler. Now the air into the motor is now maybe 10-15 degrees. BUT our mafs still think its 23 degrees. This is the problem with this kit.


With the MAFs in the proper place by the TBS, With the SI blower impeller and 9 psi pulley, it should hit around 500 whp, we hope lol

This is how I would do it also. What BPV will you use? I have heard a vortech one and it sounded good. They make a race version that basically handles more psi but it is LOUD! So if that's what your after.... Ive even read you can use a regular push rod bov for this purpose.

Ohhhh... eh... is there anyway to re-route iat's to read post IC?

Or, if you can rescale the IAT's that should work, right?

Relocating the MAF's will require rescaling anyway, and if they are too close to the TB's, it may be tough to get a stable idle...

Actually, if the IC is doing its job, the compressed airtemps shouldn't be waaaay out of line with IAT's anyway. How efficient are these IC's? Has anyone monitored temps pre and post IC?

If ambient is 23 you will never get it below that unless using ice to drop it to 10-15 degrees.

I have done tons of research regarding water vs air and basically water is king, but ONLY on the 1/4mile strip. This is due to the fact you can use an icebox and, like mentioned, actually drop intake temps below ambient. For street use it will heatsoak and becomes a risk. Especailly if you are set up on this pull through style maf sensing like stillen did it. That intake mani aftercooler could get heatsoaked from a run and sit at 120* inside of an engine bay that is 140*. Next full throttle pull your intake temps towards redline could be around 200*. Your engine is thinking its coming in at ambient which on a hot day could be 100*. Therefore, your ecu isn't retarding timing and then....bad day.

Now like Jordo was saying you could set up a w2a differently. The only good way is to keep that intake cooler out of the bay. So basically mount a big aftercooler in the front bumper while still finding room for the heat exchanger portion of it. At that point an a2a is a better choice. It basically is maintenance free and will outperform that w2a anyways in any race that lasts more than 30 seconds.

But. Anything is possible. Ill leave what I had done here.

you would have to use a Aftermarket IAT sensor and would have to be mounted in the intake manifold under the intercooler. that's the only way for it work.

Its really hard to read what our air temps are after they hit the intercooler in the manifold. But we know that the reading will be way off from what our MAFS are reading. This is probably why people are losing there motors when going higher boost.

Also got this far in my attempt to re engineer the Stillen ...
Divorcing the IAT from the MAF and solving the IAT discrepancy.
Still would have gone with the W2A and ice box ...

I think the problem was finding a IAT sensor that would work with the ecu. What about buying a third MAF (only for temp) and finding a place to stick it? Is there room in the Stillen IM, after the intercooler, to shove a third Nissan MAF....Then splicing the IAT wire only into it? I guess it boils down to space. Then the front two MAFs will only be reading airflow, not temp, and still keeping the ECU happy.

Hmm. I haven't scrutinized the air temp correction tables, but in theory you should be able to just rescale/retune them -- they are probably affecting timing more than fueling, as regardless of measured temp, it should still be reading a greater airmass (although I'm surprised folks aren't hitting 5 volts with some decent boost).

Of course having the ECU actually respond to actual (post IC) temps would be preferred... Does it tend to run lean, rich, or just pull timing?

Anyway, so long as you have post IC temp readings to monitor and log, even manually from an outside gauge, you can probably just re-tune the adjustment tables to get everything closer to the desired ballpark.

Is the problem definitely one of measurement? I had thought the major issue with the stillen kit was that the piping design was just poor for flow beyond a certain level of boost :confused:

Actually that thing must flow better than anything. With 4ft of piping in the whole kit and a tiny ic.

Swiss370Z is running a AIT sensor, I think he's mounting it in the IM. He had a pic of it in his build thread.

why not run speed density instead of MAF? then you can tune more accurately and it wouldn't matter that the sensor is where it is...Less modification and more stable tune

Lets talk flow. Which style ic is best suited for a sc and to flow the best. Horizontal like picture, or vertical like picture?

Looking for lowest psi drop here. Im not worried about which one cools better since i wont ever be making more than 14lbs.

I think the major issue with psi drop is making sure its appropriately sized and running as short piping as possible -- too big is no good, too little is no good.

For a project like this, I highly recommend picking up a copy of this book -- tons and tons of useful info:

http://www.amazon.com/Induction-Perf.../dp/1859606911

It has lots of useful tables for estimating these sorts of things -- really, really fantastic text.

Question, if you clock the charger downwards will the oil still sit properly inside the housing to keep the supercharger running efficiently?

Well I was looking to order one sometime soon. Like on Monday..lol..

After reading that book, what style our design would you go with?

I hadn't thought about this but your right! Every time I go to the track I blow a little bit of SC oil out the left brass plug that has a vent in it my first session. That vent is just a tiny hole, how are you going to keep oil from running out of it when you click it? The first time it happened I called Mark at Stillen from the track freaking out but he told me its to keep the pressure from getting to high so I don't think you want to block it off. You might be able to place the dip stick in the lower hole and the vent in the upper once it's clocked but I'm not sure.


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