Stillen Air to Air setup

ANMVQ · 06-03-2015, 02:29 PM

Didnt think of it that way, was thinking is we used a single in dual out intercooler. But your ways sound easier and would be a nicer finish.

Z&I · 06-03-2015, 02:37 PM

Hey Top Gun !!!
Great talking with you ...
Checked out your drawing for the Stillen SC'r.
I actually got that far in my planning with only a few differences.
I was going to use the Stillen Charge Pipe (without the Y) and install the MAF's right before each TB.
I planned to intersect the Stillen Charge Pipe right after the IC out...
Just needed to figure out where to put the IC (a2a) or Heat Exchanger (a2w)
Either in front of, or behind the radiator.
(I think GTM solution was to locate the IC behind the radiator and incorporate new fans).
You are limited in options because of the Stillen Bracket/Pulleys, the radiator brace, and also A/C lines, so you need to consider that as well.
I had also planned to incorporate an ice box in the back thereby utilizing the existing Stillen w2a IC and adding an extra measure of IATcooling for race day.
Your idea of clocking the SC'r 180 out and running a longer runner in to the IC might work...it also would give you some more room to run the SC'r air in and filters.

swiss370Z · 06-03-2015, 02:43 PM

Hey Guys!
I see a brilliant discussion board!
I let myself love to inspire and be myself and worry for more options.

Am looking forward to the results

TopgunZ · 06-03-2015, 05:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVOHUNTER

its more work, more piping this way top gunz is thinking.

Were rotating the blower down 90 degrees, The pipe will go straight down and around the rad into the intercooler and on the driver side.

On the passenger side were running a 3" off the intercooler. this is branching into 2 -3 "pipes up the TBS. my MAFS will be mounted 9"-10" away from the TBS.

If you use the stock manifold, you have more piping, Also, your pipes going up to the TBS will be different lengths, this will cause problems.

the blower gives you no room on the driver side to run a pipe up to the TBS., so a longer pipe would have to be fed through the passenger side, around the front of the motor up to the TBS, The pipe will be 20"s longer than your passenger intake tube.

Lol. This is exactly as I had drawn it up. And yeah, no way can you use the driver side throttle body and stock mani.

That "Y" your talking about...Can you use the intake Y pipe? How big is that thing? I was going to just 3D print up some plugs for the maf holes.

TopgunZ · 06-04-2015, 09:11 AM

Why does the bpv need to recirc back into the intake tube? Ive heard its for idle issues. Isn't this strictly just to keep the sound at a minimal level since the filter and re-digestion by the sc basically act as mufflers.

jwick · 06-04-2015, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

Why does the bpv need to recirc back into the intake tube? Ive heard its for idle issues. Isn't this strictly just to keep the sound at a minimal level since the filter and re-digestion by the sc basically act as mufflers.

I would love if somebody could actually answer this as I believe it's the number #1 reason why when you remove it there is a little blip in the idle when coming to a stop.

EVOHUNTER · 06-04-2015, 09:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

Lol. This is exactly as I had drawn it up. And yeah, no way can you use the driver side throttle body and stock mani.

That "Y" your talking about...Can you use the intake Y pipe? How big is that thing? I was going to just 3D print up some plugs for the maf holes.

My bad, I just saw your drawing haaha

exactly how were doing it.

sorry dude.

But i'm sure you could use that Y pipe, I think sasha's just making a custom one. Were also thinking of running a 4" pipe off the intercooler, mount both mafs in the 4" tube, so they have the exact same readings. then a branch off to 2 3" pipes up to the TBS

EVOHUNTER · 06-04-2015, 09:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

Why does the bpv need to recirc back into the intake tube? Ive heard its for idle issues. Isn't this strictly just to keep the sound at a minimal level since the filter and re-digestion by the sc basically act as mufflers.

They do it for emission, noise and the main one is idle, because your mafs are mounted before the BPV, this will throw off your MAF readings.

I'm removing all the vaccum lines to the blower. It will only be the intake tube going into the blower. Your idle will be fine As long as your Mafs are mounted after your BPV. were mounting the BPV on the tube coming out of the IC on the passenger side, before the MAFs, and it will be vented to the Atmosphere .

Jordo! · 06-04-2015, 09:19 AM

The HE is inside the IM? Guess to save space?

Why not a better A2W IC, larger core outside of IM, bigger pump, larger, dual pass HE -- water is much better than air at absorbing heat...

Or, if it can be done, figure out how to incorporate a roots or twinscrew (clutch engagement?) and ditch the centrifugal blower altogether.

I know am just daydreaming here...

EVOHUNTER · 06-04-2015, 09:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

The HE is inside the IM? Guess to save space?

Why not a better A2W IC, larger core outside of IM, bigger pump, larger, dual pass HE -- water is much better than air at absorbing heat...

Or, if it can be done, figure out how to incorporate a roots or twinscrew (clutch engagement?) and ditch the centrifugal blower altogether.

I know am just daydreaming here...

The whole reason for this is because where your MAFS are mounted, this wont help our situation.

Example :

Our Intake temps are read by our MAFS, which are in the front intake tubes, by the air filters.

So For example - Air is pulled through our MAFS, say its 23 degree air temp.
It now hits a extremely hot blower and our is now air is 30 degrees. Air mafs still think its 23 degrees, Now the air hits our Manifold intercooler. Now the air into the motor is now maybe 10-15 degrees. BUT our mafs still think its 23 degrees. This is the problem with this kit.

With the MAFs in the proper place by the TBS, With the SI blower impeller and 9 psi pulley, it should hit around 500 whp, we hope lol

TopgunZ · 06-04-2015, 11:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVOHUNTER

They do it for emission, noise and the main one is idle, because your mafs are mounted before the BPV, this will throw off your MAF readings.

I'm removing all the vaccum lines to the blower. It will only be the intake tube going into the blower. Your idle will be fine As long as your Mafs are mounted after your BPV. were mounting the BPV on the tube coming out of the IC on the passenger side, before the MAFs, and it will be vented to the Atmosphere .

This is how I would do it also. What BPV will you use? I have heard a vortech one and it sounded good. They make a race version that basically handles more psi but it is LOUD! So if that's what your after.... Ive even read you can use a regular push rod bov for this purpose.

Jordo! · 06-04-2015, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVOHUNTER

The whole reason for this is because where your MAFS are mounted, this wont help our situation.

Example :

Our Intake temps are read by our MAFS, which are in the front intake tubes, by the air filters.

So For example - Air is pulled through our MAFS, say its 23 degree air temp.
It now hits a extremely hot blower and our is now air is 30 degrees. Air mafs still think its 23 degrees, Now the air hits our Manifold intercooler. Now the air into the motor is now maybe 10-15 degrees. BUT our mafs still think its 23 degrees. This is the problem with this kit.

With the MAFs in the proper place by the TBS, With the SI blower impeller and 9 psi pulley, it should hit around 500 whp, we hope lol

Ohhhh... eh... is there anyway to re-route iat's to read post IC?

Or, if you can rescale the IAT's that should work, right?

Relocating the MAF's will require rescaling anyway, and if they are too close to the TB's, it may be tough to get a stable idle...

Actually, if the IC is doing its job, the compressed airtemps shouldn't be waaaay out of line with IAT's anyway. How efficient are these IC's? Has anyone monitored temps pre and post IC?

TopgunZ · 06-04-2015, 11:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVOHUNTER

The whole reason for this is because where your MAFS are mounted, this wont help our situation.

Example :

Our Intake temps are read by our MAFS, which are in the front intake tubes, by the air filters.

So For example - Air is pulled through our MAFS, say its 23 degree air temp.
It now hits a extremely hot blower and our is now air is 30 degrees. Air mafs still think its 23 degrees, Now the air hits our Manifold intercooler. Now the air into the motor is now maybe 10-15 degrees. BUT our mafs still think its 23 degrees. This is the problem with this kit.

With the MAFs in the proper place by the TBS, With the SI blower impeller and 9 psi pulley, it should hit around 500 whp, we hope lol

If ambient is 23 you will never get it below that unless using ice to drop it to 10-15 degrees.

I have done tons of research regarding water vs air and basically water is king, but ONLY on the 1/4mile strip. This is due to the fact you can use an icebox and, like mentioned, actually drop intake temps below ambient. For street use it will heatsoak and becomes a risk. Especailly if you are set up on this pull through style maf sensing like stillen did it. That intake mani aftercooler could get heatsoaked from a run and sit at 120* inside of an engine bay that is 140*. Next full throttle pull your intake temps towards redline could be around 200*. Your engine is thinking its coming in at ambient which on a hot day could be 100*. Therefore, your ecu isn't retarding timing and then....bad day.

Now like Jordo was saying you could set up a w2a differently. The only good way is to keep that intake cooler out of the bay. So basically mount a big aftercooler in the front bumper while still finding room for the heat exchanger portion of it. At that point an a2a is a better choice. It basically is maintenance free and will outperform that w2a anyways in any race that lasts more than 30 seconds.

But. Anything is possible. Ill leave what I had done here.

EVOHUNTER · 06-04-2015, 11:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

Ohhhh... eh... is there anyway to re-route iat's to read post IC?

Or, if you can rescale the IAT's that should work, right?

Relocating the MAF's will require rescaling anyway, and if they are too close to the TB's, it may be tough to get a stable idle...

Actually, if the IC is doing its job, the compressed airtemps shouldn't be waaaay out of line with IAT's anyway. How efficient are these IC's? Has anyone monitored temps pre and post IC?

you would have to use a Aftermarket IAT sensor and would have to be mounted in the intake manifold under the intercooler. that's the only way for it work.

Its really hard to read what our air temps are after they hit the intercooler in the manifold. But we know that the reading will be way off from what our MAFS are reading. This is probably why people are losing there motors when going higher boost.

Z&I · 06-04-2015, 12:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EVOHUNTER

you would have to use a Aftermarket IAT sensor and would have to be mounted in the intake manifold under the intercooler. that's the only way for it work.

Its really hard to read what our air temps are after they hit the intercooler in the manifold. But we know that the reading will be way off from what our MAFS are reading. This is probably why people are losing there motors when going higher boost.

Also got this far in my attempt to re engineer the Stillen ...
Divorcing the IAT from the MAF and solving the IAT discrepancy.
Still would have gone with the W2A and ice box ...

06-03-2015, 02:29 PM	#16 (permalink)
ANMVQ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Framingham MA Posts: 2,732 Drives: 2014 Q50 AWD Rep Power: 19	Didnt think of it that way, was thinking is we used a single in dual out intercooler. But your ways sound easier and would be a nicer finish. __________________ 14 Q50 AWD, ARK, ECUTEK (SEB), Takda,

06-03-2015, 02:37 PM	#17 (permalink)
Z&I Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2013 Location: New Jersey Posts: 410 Drives: '09 370z 6MT FI Rep Power: 12	Hey Top Gun !!! Great talking with you ... Checked out your drawing for the Stillen SC'r. I actually got that far in my planning with only a few differences. I was going to use the Stillen Charge Pipe (without the Y) and install the MAF's right before each TB. I planned to intersect the Stillen Charge Pipe right after the IC out... Just needed to figure out where to put the IC (a2a) or Heat Exchanger (a2w) Either in front of, or behind the radiator. (I think GTM solution was to locate the IC behind the radiator and incorporate new fans). You are limited in options because of the Stillen Bracket/Pulleys, the radiator brace, and also A/C lines, so you need to consider that as well. I had also planned to incorporate an ice box in the back thereby utilizing the existing Stillen w2a IC and adding an extra measure of IATcooling for race day. Your idea of clocking the SC'r 180 out and running a longer runner in to the IC might work...it also would give you some more room to run the SC'r air in and filters. __________________ . BB Last edited by Z&I; 06-03-2015 at 02:56 PM.

06-03-2015, 02:43 PM	#18 (permalink)
swiss370Z Track Member Join Date: Jun 2011 Location: In the Mountains Posts: 649 Drives: VW UP! 1.0 Ltr Rep Power: 14	Hey Guys! I see a brilliant discussion board! I let myself love to inspire and be myself and worry for more options. Am looking forward to the results __________________ /// ONE LAST RIDE /// R.I.P. FAIRLADY Z ///

06-04-2015, 09:11 AM	#20 (permalink)
TopgunZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,651 Drives: 06 350Z , 09 370Z MT Rep Power: 6833	Why does the bpv need to recirc back into the intake tube? Ive heard its for idle issues. Isn't this strictly just to keep the sound at a minimal level since the filter and re-digestion by the sc basically act as mufflers. __________________ ROTREX SUPERCHARGER TUNER KITS - $6799/ CUSTOM STILLEN AIR TO AIR KITS -$2100/ 700+ WHP!! WWW.TOPGUNSPEEDWORKS.COM

06-04-2015, 09:19 AM	#24 (permalink)
Jordo! A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2010 Location: nirvana Posts: 6,394 Drives: 2023 NATM Rep Power: 417	The HE is inside the IM? Guess to save space? Why not a better A2W IC, larger core outside of IM, bigger pump, larger, dual pass HE -- water is much better than air at absorbing heat... Or, if it can be done, figure out how to incorporate a roots or twinscrew (clutch engagement?) and ditch the centrifugal blower altogether. I know am just daydreaming here... __________________ Enjoy it. Destroy it. Last edited by Jordo!; 06-04-2015 at 09:21 AM.

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