complete engine overhaul questions.

chii370 · 12-02-2011, 04:22 PM

true that.

Q about the SC though, i was pokin around GTM's site and looking at the "power packages" just to see all the different variations they have available (i know you can make your own) and i looked at a couple of the SC. they were 500hp packages, and the dyno graph showed 414 hp for the SC 500hp package, and it shows 583hp for the TT 500 hp package. both are stage 1 and they both cost but a few hundred in difference depending on the other **** you get........ but wait a second.... if there talking about engine horsepower then the SC isnt even making the claimed 500, and the TT is making MORE. but if they are talking WHP then that means the SC probably isnt even MAKING 500 crank and the TT should be in the 600 hp package because if its making 583 whp its well over 600 crank...... WTF i think there just pulling there naming system on the packages out of there ***. ether way, the SC isnt even making the rated, sold as, power...... that bugs me.

typo, lies, or whatever it is aside..... the SC is still far from justified for its price tag. lets pretend they ment crank hp. so a 8k S1 SC just gave me...... drum roll..... 45 horse crank. thats retarded. now, giving them the benifit of the doubt and assuming its talking WHP it still only gives a PEAK increase of roughly 105-110hp. STILL not really justified. and based on that weird comparison to the TT setup numbers they have.... i really do think there talking crank horses. so if this is true, MY GOD the tt is the obvious choice.... its the same amount and gives you almost double the grrr. yes more complicated, yes it sounds..... ******* stupid, but i would rather spend my 8k on 275hp instead of 110. can someone clarify those numbers a little for me? i want to know what those SC can actually do. ive heard claims in the 480-500 WHP range, is this true?

http://www.gtmotorsports.com/images/...29_dyno250.JPG

http://www.gtmotorsports.com/images/..._PSI__copy.jpg

mind you, they are DIFFERENT kits so ignor the price, they come with clutch, traction control and all kinds of other ****. im just talking about the TT and SC themselves. seems odd.

and yes, i noticed the octane difference. it doesnt make much of a difference in raw HP. i run turbo blue in my race car and i can tell you its not 100+ hp of a difference from pump gas. its more like 10.

theDreamer · 12-02-2011, 04:51 PM

Ok lets break it down, you are comparing 8PSI (SC) v. 13PSI (TT), that is just retarded sorry. Second, the 13PSI would be the top end of the Stage I TT kit, which by the looks of it is the idea of that dyno, race fuel plus max PSI.

45 horse? Where did you get this number? You honestly are just throwing out numbers with nothing behind them. Great you found some dyno graphs but no baseline of each of those cars. Did the car run 300whp before the kit or did it run 240whp?

I understand you wanting a NA engine which has great engine response, but honestly you seem to be missing many things when it comes to research on the VQ37 SC & TT kits. And where are people getting 450whp from SC? Search and you would have found this: Forced Induction Finished Builds

wstar · 12-02-2011, 04:53 PM

Keep in mind that full set of higher-end bolton NA work (intakes, headers, CBE, UpRev, tune) runs you in the ballpark of 3-4K+, maybe a lot + if you're paying someone else for all the labor, and gets you from stock's ~270 to ~310 (so somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% over stock).

I'm pretty sure the 414 number on the SC is in RWHP. You could call them to double-check. Real-world numbers versus stock (not versus a fully bolt-on'd motor), it's nearly a 50% gain in engine power. 8K+ for that is a steal compared to the 4K+ for the boltons.

chii370 · 12-02-2011, 05:49 PM

thedreamer, its pretty safe to assume they didnt start with a 370z that had 240 hp, since this is an machine built assembly line motor. pretty confident somewhere around what 99% of them make, aside from the nismo model like mine.... but even then its just a simple matter of average subtraction. my engine dynod at 368.5 crank. and most base/sports are about 350 crank. THATS where i got the number of 300 RWHP, because thats what just a bit lower then mine. YES i was guessing, but i was using common sense. if you have a 370 that makes 240 rwhp somethings wrong, you got f u c k e d. so 45 came from the 414 and my 368, i was assuming that was CRANK horse, because otherwise they would be lying because its not even making the advertised 500. even then.... using the same % loss from our base motor, take mine for example, 368 to 300-305 roughly rwhp and thats using MORE then 15% loss. if it makes 414, it wouldnt make 500 crank. using that 15% loss thing you mentioned that means it would make 476 crank HP use a ******* calulator, NOT the advertised 500. yes i know theres variables and i would like to know them. but it just doesnt make sense if you just USE MATH. it doesnt matter what that motor DID make before, its all a matter of percentage.

and if you read, i was ASKING about those claims. you see them all over youtube and other forums, i clearly didnt say it like it was fact, or even that i believed it myself..... sorry for the misunderstanding, but im pretty sure i made that clear. i was asking because i was thinking they DONT make that much.

theDreamer · 12-02-2011, 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

thedreamer, its pretty safe to assume they didnt start with a 370z that had 240 hp, since this is an machine built assembly line motor. pretty confident somewhere around what 99% of them make, aside from the nismo model like mine.... but even then its just a simple matter of average subtraction. my engine dynod at 368.5 crank. and most base/sports are about 350 crank. THATS where i got the number of 300 RWHP, because thats what just a bit lower then mine. YES i was guessing, but i was using common sense. if you have a 370 that makes 240 rwhp somethings wrong, you got f u c k e d. so 45 came from the 414 and my 368, i was assuming that was CRANK horse, because otherwise they would be lying because its not even making the advertised 500. even then.... using the same % loss from our base motor, take mine for example, 368 to 300-305 roughly rwhp and thats using MORE then 15% loss. if it makes 414, it wouldnt make 500 crank. using that 15% loss thing you mentioned that means it would make 476 crank HP use a ******* calulator, NOT the advertised 500. yes i know theres variables and i would like to know them. but it just doesnt make sense if you just USE MATH. it doesnt matter what that motor DID make before, its all a matter of percentage.

and if you read, i was ASKING about those claims. you see them all over youtube and other forums, i clearly didnt say it like it was fact, or even that i believed it myself..... sorry for the misunderstanding, but im pretty sure i made that clear. i was asking because i was thinking they DONT make that much.

So much wrong in this post all I can do is this:

theDreamer · 12-02-2011, 06:08 PM

Oh and to help you:

chii370 · 12-02-2011, 06:19 PM

only thing i can say is.... go to another dyno and i bet the numbers would be different. sometimes dramatically. dont know what to tell ya, i would be pissed if my Z made 245 lol.

theDreamer · 12-02-2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

only thing i can say is.... go to another dyno and i bet the numbers would be different. sometimes dramatically. dont know what to tell ya, i would be pissed if my Z made 245 lol.

chii370 · 12-02-2011, 06:36 PM

lol this threads going 4chan real fast..... all "you mad bros" and "trollin" and "facepalms" aside lets just get back on track. i dont care whos right in this childish debate. actually lets just make it simple. im wrong, lets move on. does anyone have any good places that have been makin comp heads, pistons and other things like that for the VQ besides GTM?

Super Moderator II · 12-02-2011, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

lets just get back on track.

Skeeterbop · 12-02-2011, 08:15 PM

I still would love to see a N/A built 370. I don't understand the sticking point on numbers though. Every dyno is going to be a little different. hell it could say i dyno'd at 200hp, and if i slap on the SC and the same dyno says i now have 350hp then i would be quite pleased. Also I bet my Z would appear to be way low on power if I had it dyno'd since I'm at 4k feet. Anyways, have you decided how you are going to do this build?

FL 4Motion · 12-02-2011, 10:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

lol this threads going 4chan real fast..... all "you mad bros" and "trollin" and "facepalms" aside lets just get back on track. i dont care whos right in this childish debate. actually lets just make it simple. im wrong, lets move on. does anyone have any good places that have been makin comp heads, pistons and other things like that for the VQ besides GTM?

although I am skeptical of your ability to build a 500hp n/a vq, I sincerely want you to prove me wrong cause I am a fan of n/a built power myself.

As far as other shops that make/stock the parts you're looking for, GTM is the only one I know of that has most of the stuff you're looking for. You could try calling a few other reputable shops and seeing what they could do for you as far as parts etc. (Z1, Forged Performance, HP Logic etc).

chii370 · 12-02-2011, 10:48 PM

got a point there skeeter, never even considered the altitude thing. but yeah, i see what your saying. and ive had the hornet on a mobile "trailer" dyno once and it had quite a different number as the other i took it too. so it is what it is, who cares. i just want to be able to do it at the very least as a proof of concept. its not for braging rights or anything. i would just like to have something a little more "unique" you know? stupid expensive..... but unique.

seriously.... how cool would a 450-500hp all motor z be. and if in the future you wanted to get retarded with it.... your already set up for a platform that could handle in the 1k hp range. .... thats not what i want. but im just saying.

Skeeterbop · 12-02-2011, 10:50 PM

I know what you mean chii. Once I get mine paid off, I would like to get a used block and slowly build it up for RPMs. I would love to be able to comfortably hit 9k knowing the internals are more than up for the task. I would probably be looking at the same problems doing that as you would/will be for the 500hp N/A engine. My shopping list consists of lighter yet stronger parts which means $$$. I'm not looking to stroke it, since a longer stroke is in opposition to RPMs. I'll probably have to get a few (ok, more than a few) custom parts. The valve train will have to be lightened and strengthened as well. It will need stronger springs to prevent valve float. A custom dry sump setup would help as well. I'm thinking that when all is said and done, I would be looking at a $20-$25k engine, which in my mind would be worth it for my enjoyment. If you start a build thread let me know so I can follow it!

Gearhead51 · 12-02-2011, 11:47 PM

Turbos not for daily drivers? I have 342k mi, 203k mi, and 298k on three of the turbos in my driveway not to mention semis with a million miles on them. Finding a N/A engine that makes STRONG power with that many miles is rare. I could recommend a few good books packed full of sound engineering.

Btw, most of the things you will do to make high N/A hp is the opposite to what you would do for a FI build, so I'm not sure how you would get to 1000hp.

Enjoy your N/A build.

12-02-2011, 04:22 PM	#76 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 15	true that. Q about the SC though, i was pokin around GTM's site and looking at the "power packages" just to see all the different variations they have available (i know you can make your own) and i looked at a couple of the SC. they were 500hp packages, and the dyno graph showed 414 hp for the SC 500hp package, and it shows 583hp for the TT 500 hp package. both are stage 1 and they both cost but a few hundred in difference depending on the other ** you get........ but wait a second.... if there talking about engine horsepower then the SC isnt even making the claimed 500, and the TT is making MORE. but if they are talking WHP then that means the SC probably isnt even MAKING 500 crank and the TT should be in the 600 hp package because if its making 583 whp its well over 600 crank...... WTF i think there just pulling there naming system on the packages out of there . ether way, the SC isnt even making the rated, sold as, power...... that bugs me. typo, lies, or whatever it is aside..... the SC is still far from justified for its price tag. lets pretend they ment crank hp. so a 8k S1 SC just gave me...... drum roll..... 45 horse crank. thats retarded. now, giving them the benifit of the doubt and assuming its talking WHP it still only gives a PEAK increase of roughly 105-110hp. STILL not really justified. and based on that weird comparison to the TT setup numbers they have.... i really do think there talking crank horses. so if this is true, MY GOD the tt is the obvious choice.... its the same amount and gives you almost double the grrr. yes more complicated, yes it sounds..... **** stupid, but i would rather spend my 8k on 275hp instead of 110. can someone clarify those numbers a little for me? i want to know what those SC can actually do. ive heard claims in the 480-500 WHP range, is this true? http://www.gtmotorsports.com/images/...29_dyno250.JPG http://www.gtmotorsports.com/images/..._PSI__copy.jpg mind you, they are DIFFERENT kits so ignor the price, they come with clutch, traction control and all kinds of other *. im just talking about the TT and SC themselves. seems odd. and yes, i noticed the octane difference. it doesnt make much of a difference in raw HP. i run turbo blue in my race car and i can tell you its not 100+ hp of a difference from pump gas. its more like 10. Last edited by chii370; 12-02-2011 at 04:32 PM.*

12-02-2011, 04:51 PM	#77 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4210	Ok lets break it down, you are comparing 8PSI (SC) v. 13PSI (TT), that is just retarded sorry. Second, the 13PSI would be the top end of the Stage I TT kit, which by the looks of it is the idea of that dyno, race fuel plus max PSI. 45 horse? Where did you get this number? You honestly are just throwing out numbers with nothing behind them. Great you found some dyno graphs but no baseline of each of those cars. Did the car run 300whp before the kit or did it run 240whp? I understand you wanting a NA engine which has great engine response, but honestly you seem to be missing many things when it comes to research on the VQ37 SC & TT kits. And where are people getting 450whp from SC? Search and you would have found this: Forced Induction Finished Builds __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

12-02-2011, 04:53 PM	#78 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	Keep in mind that full set of higher-end bolton NA work (intakes, headers, CBE, UpRev, tune) runs you in the ballpark of 3-4K+, maybe a lot + if you're paying someone else for all the labor, and gets you from stock's ~270 to ~310 (so somewhere in the neighborhood of 10-15% over stock). I'm pretty sure the 414 number on the SC is in RWHP. You could call them to double-check. Real-world numbers versus stock (not versus a fully bolt-on'd motor), it's nearly a 50% gain in engine power. 8K+ for that is a steal compared to the 4K+ for the boltons. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

12-02-2011, 06:08 PM	#81 (permalink)
theDreamer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Texas Posts: 30,879 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 4210	Oh and to help you: __________________ theDreamer's Z // Fast Intentions // Uprev // GTM // HKS // TEIN theDreamer's Silvia // URAS // GREDDY Houston Zs // Facebook // Twitter // Instagram

12-02-2011, 08:15 PM	#86 (permalink)
Skeeterbop A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Age: 40 Posts: 1,440 Drives: 2011 GM 370 base SP Rep Power: 16	I still would love to see a N/A built 370. I don't understand the sticking point on numbers though. Every dyno is going to be a little different. hell it could say i dyno'd at 200hp, and if i slap on the SC and the same dyno says i now have 350hp then i would be quite pleased. Also I bet my Z would appear to be way low on power if I had it dyno'd since I'm at 4k feet. Anyways, have you decided how you are going to do this build? __________________ Srenity: "Yeah no rest needed to spread the love when your 20 that's for sure...."

12-02-2011, 05:49 PM	#79 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 15	thedreamer, its pretty safe to assume they didnt start with a 370z that had 240 hp, since this is an machine built assembly line motor. pretty confident somewhere around what 99% of them make, aside from the nismo model like mine.... but even then its just a simple matter of average subtraction. my engine dynod at 368.5 crank. and most base/sports are about 350 crank. THATS where i got the number of 300 RWHP, because thats what just a bit lower then mine. YES i was guessing, but i was using common sense. if you have a 370 that makes 240 rwhp somethings wrong, you got f u c k e d. so 45 came from the 414 and my 368, i was assuming that was CRANK horse, because otherwise they would be lying because its not even making the advertised 500. even then.... using the same % loss from our base motor, take mine for example, 368 to 300-305 roughly rwhp and thats using MORE then 15% loss. if it makes 414, it wouldnt make 500 crank. using that 15% loss thing you mentioned that means it would make 476 crank HP use a ******* calulator, NOT the advertised 500. yes i know theres variables and i would like to know them. but it just doesnt make sense if you just USE MATH. it doesnt matter what that motor DID make before, its all a matter of percentage. and if you read, i was ASKING about those claims. you see them all over youtube and other forums, i clearly didnt say it like it was fact, or even that i believed it myself..... sorry for the misunderstanding, but im pretty sure i made that clear. i was asking because i was thinking they DONT make that much.

12-02-2011, 06:19 PM	#82 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 15	only thing i can say is.... go to another dyno and i bet the numbers would be different. sometimes dramatically. dont know what to tell ya, i would be pissed if my Z made 245 lol.

12-02-2011, 06:36 PM	#84 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 15	lol this threads going 4chan real fast..... all "you mad bros" and "trollin" and "facepalms" aside lets just get back on track. i dont care whos right in this childish debate. actually lets just make it simple. im wrong, lets move on. does anyone have any good places that have been makin comp heads, pistons and other things like that for the VQ besides GTM?

12-02-2011, 10:48 PM	#88 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 15	got a point there skeeter, never even considered the altitude thing. but yeah, i see what your saying. and ive had the hornet on a mobile "trailer" dyno once and it had quite a different number as the other i took it too. so it is what it is, who cares. i just want to be able to do it at the very least as a proof of concept. its not for braging rights or anything. i would just like to have something a little more "unique" you know? stupid expensive..... but unique. seriously.... how cool would a 450-500hp all motor z be. and if in the future you wanted to get retarded with it.... your already set up for a platform that could handle in the 1k hp range. .... thats not what i want. but im just saying. Last edited by chii370; 12-02-2011 at 10:53 PM.

12-02-2011, 10:50 PM	#89 (permalink)
Skeeterbop A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Age: 40 Posts: 1,440 Drives: 2011 GM 370 base SP Rep Power: 16	I know what you mean chii. Once I get mine paid off, I would like to get a used block and slowly build it up for RPMs. I would love to be able to comfortably hit 9k knowing the internals are more than up for the task. I would probably be looking at the same problems doing that as you would/will be for the 500hp N/A engine. My shopping list consists of lighter yet stronger parts which means $$$. I'm not looking to stroke it, since a longer stroke is in opposition to RPMs. I'll probably have to get a few (ok, more than a few) custom parts. The valve train will have to be lightened and strengthened as well. It will need stronger springs to prevent valve float. A custom dry sump setup would help as well. I'm thinking that when all is said and done, I would be looking at a $20-$25k engine, which in my mind would be worth it for my enjoyment. If you start a build thread let me know so I can follow it! __________________ Srenity: "Yeah no rest needed to spread the love when your 20 that's for sure...." Last edited by Skeeterbop; 12-02-2011 at 10:56 PM.

12-02-2011, 11:47 PM	#90 (permalink)
Gearhead51 Base Member Join Date: Jul 2011 Location: Gainesville, GA Posts: 17 Drives: Which one? Rep Power: 13	Turbos not for daily drivers? I have 342k mi, 203k mi, and 298k on three of the turbos in my driveway not to mention semis with a million miles on them. Finding a N/A engine that makes STRONG power with that many miles is rare. I could recommend a few good books packed full of sound engineering. Btw, most of the things you will do to make high N/A hp is the opposite to what you would do for a FI build, so I'm not sure how you would get to 1000hp. Enjoy your N/A build. __________________ His: '94 RX7 Gotham Racing Street Port 3mm seals, Power FC, GR67 single (T04R), twin Tials dumping behind front tire, Tein coilovers w/ EDFC shocks, etc... Hers: '09 370Z Touring, 7AT, all stock (for now)... '04 Silverado Z71 for sale. Last edited by Gearhead51; 12-02-2011 at 11:58 PM.

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