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To the best of my knowledge... A. No one has objectively or scientifically demonstrated "how hot is too hot" with regards to today's engines and engine oil or that the temperatures owners are experiencing are actually a danger to the engine. B. No one has objectively/scientifically/under controlled circumstances demonstrated when/under what conditions the engine oil temperatures rise. Until the above has been done by someone with no ax to grind; all we have are anecdotal stories and the anecdotal stories that have been presented have been all over the board - pretty much the only consistency rests with those who track their cars. The other obvious problem with anecdotal stories is that it is absolutely impossible to know if what someone is claiming is accurate - again, I'm not trying to insult anyone but this is an internet forum; anyone can say anything so if someone builds an opinion on those stories they don't know if the foundation is, to borrow a phrase, made of sand or of stone. I think we also need to keep in mind that this site; as do other enthusiasts sites represent a small percentage of the public who own 370s which makes it statistically risky to assume a wide-spread problem. In any case, I think arguing about it, regardless of one's opinion, is fairly pointless...this horse has been beaten to death until even the blood stains have been separated into their molecular parts. Live long and prosper. |
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http://images50.fotki.com/v1514/phot...andlife-vi.jpg And as far as (B) goes, the obvious factors that contribute to a higher oil temp are: Time spent at high RPM values, Ambient temp, airflow to the front of the car (and thus vehicle speed), and engine load (uphill worse than downhill, full throttle worse than half throttle, etc). |
You guy's must work for Nissan, if not they should be sending you checks. If there's no issue here, if this is only in other peoples minds, then why did Nissan put oil coolers on all the new Z's they sent out to the magazines for testing, they don't put them on other Nissans when they are being tested, they know there is an issue here, the coolers prove it. You mentioned that there is no scientific, controlled studys on how and when the overheating happens, how about everytime I drive my car. If you were having this issue with your car, that would be all the scientific evidence you would need. You need to study up on engine oils an see how the oil begins to break down when it is overheated to the 240-250 range. At this point, at whatever percent of breakdown, it is lubricating the engine less and less, which leads to engine wear and internal problems.
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<o></o>As to the coolers on the test vehicle; I suspect that it’s because Nissan knew that the magazines doing the testing were going to drive the piss out of the 370s on the track. I think the one point everyone seems to agree on is that running the car on the track means you need an engine oil cooler as did the 350 before it and likely as would most modern vehicles today that don’t already have a one. With regards to “other Nissans”; I’m not sure what other Nissan’s you are referring to but I doubt you know if they put oil coolers on other Nissans being tested or not (I know I don’t know) and if they did, I would suspect it was for the same reason I suggested above. Quote:
I’m not trying to be flippant here; I’m really not…but if your car is giving you a serious problem every time you drive it then I encourage you to take action until you get it resolved one way or the other. Quote:
But I do know that all oil breaks down and I know there are many variables that cause that breakdown and how quickly it happens. I also know that heat is one of the biggest contributing factors to engine oil breaking down. I also know that the flashpoint of the oil is one way to measure how easily/quickly an oil will breakdown with heat and that synthetic oils have a much higher flashpoint and resist breakdown due to heat much better than natural petroleum oil. I’ve also been told by someone much smarter than I am in such matters that 220 degrees is about perfect for the 3.7L. What I don’t know is, if 220 is the preferred temperature, is there a significant/measurable risk to the engine with the oil running into the 240 or 250 or whatever range (however often that happens/however long that happens)…I don’t know if good synthetic oil is good enough to negate those kinds of concerns if you are changing your oil every 3 months/3,000 miles. Well…I think the molecules from the bloodstains are now down to their individual neurons and electrons at this point…I’m truly sorry if you are having a serious problem with you car and I hope you get it resolved to your satisfaction; whatever that takes. |
Wait for it... :rofl2:
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I guess what I'm asking is how applicable is that graph to the 370 using a high-quality full synthetic oil? I think another appropriate question would be, and I don't have any idea what the answer would be; how much in terms of days/weeks/years/miles driven will the "Max Life" be compromised if, for example, your engine is always running at 230 rather than the max life you would get if it's always running at 180? In other words, does it mean you'll get 1,000 less miles in total out of the life of the engine or 50,000 less? Don't we need to know that to properly gauge just how significant all this is? B) I think we can assume all those are factors but I don't know that they explain why some people seem to have "constant" problems while other don't seem to have any. :confused: |
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My car has about 650 miles and I have tracked the temperature gauge for the last couple of days. For the record my car is a base model w/ a 6 speed and I drive to work 33 miles each way. The ambient temperature in the afternoon has been around 90F-92F and I drive conservatively. My top speed has been 65 mph and I have maintained that speed for about 25 of the 33 miles. My oil temperature has not risen past 215F (on mark shy of the 220F indicator). As I log more miles I will repeat at 70 mph and report what the temperature gauge indicates.
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Thanks Robert, for your honest reply there. I may be a bit more concerned about this issue than some. I pre-ordered a 350-Z, 8 months before the '03's came out. The alignment issues were a common problem with the Z's and in those early days of the 350's, tires were wearing out quickly, and Nissan didn't resolve the problem, just gave some people some new front tires and said...problem resolved, and then fixed the real issue a year or two later. It looks like this may turn out the same way. I really liked my 350 and only put the very best of oils in it, I used Amsoil, and changed it every 4,000 miles, long before the oil was worn out. The car developed very serious oil leaks, which Nissan fixed under warranty. Then later my car started using oil more and more. Nissan told me to do an oil consumption test at the dealer, which I did. It was determined that the car was using 1 quart of oil every 380 miles. Yes, you read that right. The dealer told Nissan that I had an aftermarket exhaust on it, and that was enough for them, it was my fault...case closed. Further testing on my dollar, revealed that the oil retaining rings were bad and the oil was just blowing past them and out the exhaust. That meant either rebuilding or replacing the engine at a cost of 4 to 8 thousand dollars. I decided to take a loss and sell the car as is, and figured the new Z would be more trouble free. Now with the brand new one there is a fresh new oil issue. So, I guess you can see why I am a bit concerned. I don't want another automobile nightmare.
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Oil temp graph/Engine wear = Longevity?
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"No one has objectively/scientifically/under controlled circumstances demonstrated when/under what conditions the engine oil temperatures rise." I will gladly volunteer my 370Z with manual transmission as a "test 370Z". I'll even install a on-board computer so I can datalog my Z's engine temps, outside temps, engine load, engine water temp,etc. and will share the results with Nissan corporate or Nissan Motorsports. All Nissan has to do is PM me (37Z). I do not work for Nissan; however, I have owned many Nissan cars and was involved in the survey that lead to the 240SX re-design. |
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I had an ’04 Touring Coupe which I put NISMO rims on and autocrossed pretty heavily so I would have never known if I was having any tire-wear issues as I went through tires pretty easily! My next one was an ’07 Grand Touring Coupe and didn’t experience any issues with it or my ’08 Roadster either. <o></o>Frankly I think you got a raw deal on the warranty issue but it is true than once you start modifying a car getting things covered under warranty can become a real nightmare if not knock down drag out fight…I wish it were otherwise. I do hope your experience with you 370 ultimately turns out well. <o></o> |
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If you're talking about the one on the right, it doesn't even have numbers on one of its axes, so it's clearly just a "feel good" graph trying to show the general relationship between oil temp and engine wear in the general case. As for the rest of it, re: specifics on what it takes to damage our engine life, and by how much, we're never going to get that data. We'd need someone independent (ourselves?) to pony up several VQ37VHRs and put them on test stands in rigorous testing conditions and destroy them (and figure out the exact relationships between things like X RPMs sustained for Y seconds = Z degrees increase in oil temps). Some people in the bowels of Nissan already have this data, but as usual they don't feel like sharing. So we do what we can with the standard things we already know about oils and engines, which leads one to believe that even without hitting limp mode at 280, sustaining 240-260-range oil temps all the time is worse for the oil and the engine wear than keeping the temps lower, and it's not hard to fix with an oil cooler. |
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You'd need to log everything related though (all engine parameters, the RPMs, load, various temps, etc graphed over time), we'd need to do it with several different weights, types, and brands of engine oil, and we'd still need to use a standardized regimen of testing, such as warming up to a certain water+oil temp, then driving X miles in Y gear at Z RPM, then switch to another set, etc.... which is really hard to do on the street with traffic and stoplights to contend with and so-on. We still wouldn't be able to control the ambient condition differences, but at least if we can keep it down to that as the only significant variance we could learn a lot. But honestly, to me that sounds like a lot of work for not much benefit. It still doesn't tell us jack, ultimately, about how oil temps are affecting engine life in the long term. Only destructive testing in a lab can do that. |
Oil temp Issues
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Yes, one would have to datalog all the engine parameters including outside temps and conditions and driving conditions. I believe Nissan uses the newer version OBD III consult in the 370Z that I currently do not have. Maybe Nissan would be willing to provide one for testing purposes-hint! |
Any datalogger that supports the CANSF protocol should work. There are several on the market that do the job. I can't really help personally, as I've already modded my car significantly from the baseline in terms of intake temps, oil cooling, and intake/exhaust boltons, with more to come in the near future.
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I was watching temp mine stays at 200 I usually drive under 4k is that bad?
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oil issue???
i'am a new member looking to buy a new 370z ,i live in hot as hell lake havasu az .116 yesterday . i test drove a new 370z auto w sport pkg and was able to get oil temp to 245 in less than 10 miles of driving,first 7-8 miles on hwy temps were around 220-225 then i on purpose down shifted to keep revs 3-5k for a mile or so temps rose fast to 245 then i backed off being a new car i didnt want to run it at 6-7k rpm as that would have really raised the temps. i think regular driving in our extremely hot conditions will require a oil cooler,my sales rep is checking with a nissan rep about heat issues here.lake havasu regulary gets past 120 in summer months!!
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I'm living in Phoenix and took the car out the other day to see how high I could get the temps. My temp gauge read 114 (I believe it). I kept the RPM high and then did about 4 2nd to 3rd pulls all the way to red line and the highest the temps got were 245. After that, the temps quickly returned to about 230. I have no problems during normal driving. 09 6MT Sport.
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Hey, we're half way to 100 pages of what amounts to this:
"If you are going to track your car get an oil cooler. If not, go out and enjoy the 370Z experience." |
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:iagree: as well.
Regardless of the various opinions/experiences/conclusions; there really isn't much more that can be said on this topic that I can see. |
We also have two other oil issue threads - "So any updates on the oil overheating problem?" and "different take on oil overheating issue" that discuss the same thing, and are growing in length!
I think we should just lock these topics and nominate a moderator for the oil issue... if someone has a really worthwhile piece of information or update from Nissan, they have to PM the mod and get it approved before posting. |
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This is a non-issue that has been spun into something much more than it is. |
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We probably also need to do the same with the "auto vs manual" transmission threads...I just learned that I got a 7AT because I'm not "enough" of an enthusiast to get the MT. :driving: |
As long as the engine can handle it, oil temperatures in the 200's sure can. Read this. Learn it. An oil's flash point is what we'd be worried about. Guess what... Not even close. TO BED WITH THIS ALREADY!
Motor Oil Breakdown What really Causes It? : Motor Oil |
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You guys really don't get it do you? The issue has nothing to do with the durability or flashpoint of the oil itself. The issue is with the bearings that Nissan now puts into engines as a result of trying to be more environmentally responsible. As has been thoroughly explained by Mike Kojima on his blog:
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Oh, I noticed all of those 350Z on my way home broken down due to too many miles on the engine combined with warm oil. Semtex, I think you know the answer to all of this. What I just said above. Put on the cooler and get on with it. You know, it's funny. I was at a Z meet, and this person with the only other 370 sat and bitched about his oil getting too hot. I said, "Are you having any problems yet?" He said, "No." I said, "Are you tracking your car?" He said, "I might." I said, "You bring it on the track, put on a cooler and stop bitching." You all have plenty of options. Use them. I repeat now for you Semtex, Track=Cooler. The Midwest's quality control engineer said, "This engine is built to handle all oil temperatures right up to the limp limiter." He was involved in the 370Z's testing and traveled the world to make sure this thing was ready for the road. I have his cell number and he has mine. This is right from Nissan. Why would he make this up? He worked with the Japanese, and knew exactly what the engine can handle. He said the engine is just as reliable and you will have no oil-related problems if you keep the oil from prolonged stints over 300 on the guage. What more do we need? The other person on this board who talked to this guy is Spearfish. He gets it too. What more do you want? Track and cooler. He said that. The engineer also said any car that's taken on a racetrack for prolonged periods have to be prepped for racing. He happens to race a Porsche. He needed an aux. oil cooler but tries to keep is track temps from 240-260. Hmmm, an engineer. Those temps. He said I could meet him at the track by me and he'll show me. Come on, is this enough? |
I repeat, from Mike Kojima's article on his blog: "the new environmentally friendly bearings started to loose their load bearing capacity at temperatures as low as 260 degrees." [sic]
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From sources I've read and people I've talked with (and there has been quite a variety at this point), the flashpoint of an oil is a measure of how readily the oil actually breaks down from heat...the higher the flashpoint the more heat the oil can take before it starts to breakdown (Synthetics have a higher and in some cases a much, much higher flashpoint than non-synthetics). All oils break down and heat is a major factor in that but the higher the flashpoint, the longer the oil life and the higher the temperatures it can tollerate before it breaks down. Or another way you can look at is that flashpoint indicates how long the oil can do the job of protecting the engine before it becomes unable to do so and the higher the heat; the more frequently you should change your oil. However, it is also true that the viscosity of the oil changes (thins) as oil increases in temperature so, all other things being equal (and they rarely ever are); the higher your engine oil temperature is, the less "protection" the oiled engine parts have because the viscosity gives a thinner and thinner layer of protection as the heat increases. This would be different from how long the oil can do its job but rather how well it can do its job at any given temperature. What I've yet to see anybody translate is how much or how little all this actually affects the life of an engine. If the 3.7 engine oil consistently runs at 240 degrees; how much sooner, on average will the engine fail than if it was consistently running at 220 or 200 or 180? I think we can all agree that, 180 or 200 is "better" for engine life than 240 but that doesn't tell us how much better...at the consistent 220 mark, will the engine die at 210,000 miles instead of 220,000 or will it die at 155,000 instead of 220,000? The bearings may well break down and fail "sooner" with high temps than not but how soon and will anyone own their 370 long enough to even find out??? I don't know the answer; if anyone actually does they should speak up!!! |
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Ahhh, Robert. As the oil turns... I keep trying to stay out of this, and someone always has to bring it back up. I practice all the self-control I can, but just get to the point of people not reading the old posts. I made a quick recap in my post above. Someone in another post said it best. "By the time this would even be an issue, if it even is an issue, you'd be along to your 3rd vehicle already." Mine would probably need every other part replaced before any of the motor's parts would die. Here's another statement... So you have the "eco-friendly" bearing. So why wouldn't the limp mode be at 255? Ufff. |
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When does limp-mode kick in? 280? So Nissan evidently decided put the limp mode threshold at 20 degrees before the disintegration temp, probably as a bit of a buffer. But I don't want any weakening of the bearings at all if it can be avoided. If there was a way we could set our own limp-mode threshold temps (like how we can adjust our shift light), I'd set mine at 255. |
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