Can you get to 400 without turbo or super-charger

welderz · 03-17-2009, 12:07 AM

turbo>centrifugal>roots

RCZ · 03-17-2009, 11:17 AM

all depends on what you want and which supercharger you are getting

black09Z · 04-01-2009, 04:44 PM

Boost is best!

KingDavid · 05-19-2009, 08:25 PM

Wow, haven't been on in a while. Anyway;

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phimosis

Sorry the image quality is low. I snapped this from my iPhone.

Black line: Stock, but with rear muffler section removed.

Red line: Stillen G3 intakes, Stillen headers, Stillen Cats, Stillen exhaust.

Blue line: Stillen parts + Technosquare ECU reflash + dyno time.

In summary: $3,200 in Stillen parts gave a 26 hp increase over stock to bring it up to 328 compared to the original 302.

$700 for ECU reflash and dyno time ($500 for reflash only) gave an extra 15 whp for a total of 343 whp.

In total, it was nearly $5,000 including installation of the parts to gain 40 whp over stock. The throttle response in now extremely precise. The sound is wonderful, the over-rev to 8100 rpm is phenominal. The "Buzzy" engine vibrations that car magazines have been talking about are no worse above 7500 rpm. If anything, it smooths out a little.

One last thought: Lets pretend I gained 2 hp from removing the stock rear exhaust section. This car would have made 300 hp in this dyno. If the stock engine was 332 crank hp and it made 300 hp on this dyno, that's a conversion factor of 1.1066 for frictional loss (332/300). After mods, this car is making 343 hp on this dyno, which would be roughly 380 hp at the crank (343 x 1.1066). Not bad.

-Phim

It's no 400hp, lol, but 343whp is good, no? The number is surprisingly close to the dyno I posted earlier in the thread. And this particular dyno post is on this site...

Crash · 06-17-2009, 08:27 PM

Hell if I know! LOL... I'm not good with tuning. I know what certain things will gain most of the time, but when it comes to tuning, especially with a motor this complex, I have no idea.

I'd assume that it's going to take some time for them to come up with real tunes for this motor because there's far more to deal with than just a standard cam/valve motor. There's probably going to be experiments going on with them for a good 2-3 years before something GOOD comes out of it. Like the LSx motors... They've been around since 97 and they're a very simple motor to tune, but they've only started coming out with good cams and tunes recently. Up until then, it was hit-n-miss. Expect that to be the same for this motor.

Phimosis · 06-17-2009, 11:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Hell if I know! LOL... I'm not good with tuning. I know what certain things will gain most of the time, but when it comes to tuning, especially with a motor this complex, I have no idea.

I'd assume that it's going to take some time for them to come up with real tunes for this motor because there's far more to deal with than just a standard cam/valve motor. There's probably going to be experiments going on with them for a good 2-3 years before something GOOD comes out of it. Like the LSx motors... They've been around since 97 and they're a very simple motor to tune, but they've only started coming out with good cams and tunes recently. Up until then, it was hit-n-miss. Expect that to be the same for this motor.

Using this logic, the VQ engine should already be tuned to it's prime as it came out all the way back in 1994. If you want to argue that the VQ37 is a new engine, it came out in 2008 just like the LS3 did. And the LSx motors did have good cam and tuning. Back in 2001 the 5.7 liter stock Z06 was making 405 hp and by 2003 with aftermarket cam and blower, people had these motors making 700 whp. Sure, the VVEL is more complex, but smart people can reverse engineer graphics chips with 20 million discreet circuits in a 2 year time frame. Remapping the rate of rotation vs rpm of the VVEL and making fuel maps is a piece of cake in comparison. Don't take this personally as an attack on you. I am only ranting because I'm bitter that you can ALREADY buy a Camaro from the dealer that makes 560whp (660 at the engine? 2 months after the car hit the showroom floor?) and we can't even get a Nismo Z yet that makes 15hp more than the base model.

I think there is just more R&D in the aftermarket for American cars, which is somewhat baffling because European and Japanese manufacturers sell lots of cars all over the world, where American manufacturers only have good sales in North America.

MightyBobo · 06-17-2009, 11:51 PM

Phimosis - I think you just came up with the reason why I prefer American aftermarket pieces versus foreign lol.

Dont forget the ridiculous price premium for imported stuff too.

BTW, one of GM's biggest sellers is Buick in China - they sell a **** ton of them, there.

Crash · 06-18-2009, 01:33 AM

I'm not saying it's impossible to tune a VVEL system. The LS3 is technically a new motor as there were some basic changes between the LS2 and the LS3 (besides displacement), but the VVEL system changes the VQ37 from the VQ35 enough to make it so the old tuning methods are different. Every time GM comes out with a new LSx motor (the LS9 and LSA excluded because they're force inducted) it's been exactly the same process for tuning. Reverse engineering isn't totally necessary for the VVEL system to be tuned. It just needs to be mapped (like you said) correctly based on the requested amount of power (which is how it's setup as is). The VVEL system basically changes how much lift the valves get, correct? So we're really look at cam-grinders getting their hands on this for tuning.

The only real new technology the LS motors have gotten lately is variable timing, but that's easily turned off to turn your LS motor into a performance LS motor.

MightyBobo · 06-18-2009, 06:12 AM

BTW, for what its worth - my friend who works with the MegaSquirt crew said one of the newer MS setups could handle the tuning just fine for the 370. So, in reality, there IS a tuning solution out there - someone just has to use it.

Crash - the VVEL system changes the lift on the intake valves alone, so, in reality, you can tune the VVEL system as if you were tuning a normal drive-by-wire throttle body. As someone said in an old post, the TB's on the 370 are open 100% during all normal operating conditions, and the VVEL system acts as the throttle body. So why are we over-analyzing this? Just think of the VVEL system as the throttle body itself, and we all know the tuning is directly tied to how far the TB is opened, along with the current amount of air flowing (assuming you're doing a MAF tune and not speed density...).

Cliffs: theres no reason anyone cant use a MegaSquirt tuning solution RIGHT NOW to tune their 370.

Crash · 06-19-2009, 01:10 PM

Pshhh... Cam shafts... Even Ferrari doesn't use 'em! LOL

MightyBobo · 06-19-2009, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Crash

Pshhh... Cam shafts... Even Ferrari doesn't use 'em! LOL

Wussies.

Crash · 06-19-2009, 07:08 PM

13:1 compression sounds about right. May need to be higher. Real gains aren't always seen until about 13.5-14:1.

ARP head bolts FTW!

Phimosis · 06-19-2009, 10:44 PM

Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.

In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

PS. 470hp on a dyno with 15% frictioncal loss would equal 399.5 hp at the wheels.

CBRich · 06-19-2009, 11:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phimosis

Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.

In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

Now let's implement.

Crash · 06-20-2009, 03:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by phimosis

ok... Math class. Current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. Rod length).

Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is yamaha r6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute.

Example: Corvette z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm.

Example: Ferrari f60 car used in 2009 forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm.

In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail.
Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ crnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ crorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the vvel timing, spark and fuel maps and if the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out.

Bravo!

06-17-2009, 08:27 PM	#5 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 591	Hell if I know! LOL... I'm not good with tuning. I know what certain things will gain most of the time, but when it comes to tuning, especially with a motor this complex, I have no idea. I'd assume that it's going to take some time for them to come up with real tunes for this motor because there's far more to deal with than just a standard cam/valve motor. There's probably going to be experiments going on with them for a good 2-3 years before something GOOD comes out of it. Like the LSx motors... They've been around since 97 and they're a very simple motor to tune, but they've only started coming out with good cams and tunes recently. Up until then, it was hit-n-miss. Expect that to be the same for this motor. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-17-2009, 11:51 PM	#7 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 54	Phimosis - I think you just came up with the reason why I prefer American aftermarket pieces versus foreign lol. Dont forget the ridiculous price premium for imported stuff too. BTW, one of GM's biggest sellers is Buick in China - they sell a **** ton of them, there. __________________ I don't own a car anymore.

06-18-2009, 01:33 AM	#8 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 591	I'm not saying it's impossible to tune a VVEL system. The LS3 is technically a new motor as there were some basic changes between the LS2 and the LS3 (besides displacement), but the VVEL system changes the VQ37 from the VQ35 enough to make it so the old tuning methods are different. Every time GM comes out with a new LSx motor (the LS9 and LSA excluded because they're force inducted) it's been exactly the same process for tuning. Reverse engineering isn't totally necessary for the VVEL system to be tuned. It just needs to be mapped (like you said) correctly based on the requested amount of power (which is how it's setup as is). The VVEL system basically changes how much lift the valves get, correct? So we're really look at cam-grinders getting their hands on this for tuning. The only real new technology the LS motors have gotten lately is variable timing, but that's easily turned off to turn your LS motor into a performance LS motor. __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-18-2009, 06:12 AM	#9 (permalink)
MightyBobo A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Las Vegas, NV Posts: 8,465 Drives: No cars; only bikes Rep Power: 54	BTW, for what its worth - my friend who works with the MegaSquirt crew said one of the newer MS setups could handle the tuning just fine for the 370. So, in reality, there IS a tuning solution out there - someone just has to use it. Crash - the VVEL system changes the lift on the intake valves alone, so, in reality, you can tune the VVEL system as if you were tuning a normal drive-by-wire throttle body. As someone said in an old post, the TB's on the 370 are open 100% during all normal operating conditions, and the VVEL system acts as the throttle body. So why are we over-analyzing this? Just think of the VVEL system as the throttle body itself, and we all know the tuning is directly tied to how far the TB is opened, along with the current amount of air flowing (assuming you're doing a MAF tune and not speed density...). Cliffs: theres no reason anyone cant use a MegaSquirt tuning solution RIGHT NOW to tune their 370. __________________ I don't own a car anymore. Last edited by MightyBobo; 06-18-2009 at 06:16 AM.

06-19-2009, 01:10 PM	#10 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 591	Pshhh... Cam shafts... Even Ferrari doesn't use 'em! LOL __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

03-17-2009, 12:07 AM	#1 (permalink)
welderz Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: PA Posts: 20 Drives: POS beater car Rep Power: 18	turbo>centrifugal>roots

03-17-2009, 11:17 AM	#2 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1120	all depends on what you want and which supercharger you are getting

04-01-2009, 04:44 PM	#3 (permalink)
black09Z Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: killeen tx Posts: 202 Drives: black 09 370Z 6spd Rep Power: 18	Boost is best!

06-19-2009, 07:08 PM	#12 (permalink)
Crash A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Los Angeles Posts: 1,853 Drives: 02 Corvette Z06 Rep Power: 591	13:1 compression sounds about right. May need to be higher. Real gains aren't always seen until about 13.5-14:1. ARP head bolts FTW! __________________ 2002 Corvette Z06 - Totaled 2003 Corvette Z06 50th Anniversary

06-19-2009, 10:44 PM	#13 (permalink)
Phimosis Enthusiast Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Oildale, CA Posts: 412 Drives: 2013 911 4S Rep Power: 418	Ok... math class. current technology with forged crank, pistons and rods is only stable to around 5,000 feet per minute of piston velocity (with ideal stroke vs. rod length). Example: Fastest spinning engine on market is Yamaha R6 and has 44.5 mm stroke. Advertised redline is 17,500 rpm, but test equipment shows yamaha lied on tacho readings and real redline is 16,200 rpm. This equates to 4517.7 feet per minute. Example: Corvette Z06 with forged internals has 101.6 mm stroke and spins 7,000 rpm. This equates to 4666.6 fpm. Example: Ferrari F60 car used in 2009 Forumula 1 racing has 2398cc displacment, 98mm bore. Doing a little math equates to 39.74 mm stroke. At 18,000 rpm regulation redline, this equates to 4693 fps. In 2007 before they limited rpm, it was rumored they were able to get the engines to 20,000 rpm, which would be 5215 fpm. In the case of the 370z with 86mm stroke, 10,000 rpm would equate to 5,643 fpm = fail. Based on current technology, the 5,000 fpm ceiling would occur at 8,860 rpm. Seeing estimates of power from tuned 370z's in the range of 380 engine hp at 7500 rpm, this gives you 266 foot pounds of torque at your peak hp with stock head flow characteristics. Shifting that curve upward by valve timing could give you up to 445 hp at 8,800 rpm (based on 266 lb/ft torque). With a bump from 11.3 to 14.0 compression would yield approximately 5.48% more power (Power increase or decrease (%) = [ (1 - 1/ CRnew(.4)) / (1 - 1/ CRorig(.4)) ] -1 x 100). This yields a theoretical maximum of 470 hp if you could work out the VVEL timing, spark and fuel maps AND IF the flow characteristics of the heads are not maxed out. PS. 470hp on a dyno with 15% frictioncal loss would equal 399.5 hp at the wheels. Last edited by Phimosis; 06-20-2009 at 06:23 PM.

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