Best sway bars and endlinks for 370z?

synolimit · 01-13-2014, 02:27 PM

If you google sway bars that seems correct. Everyone here though would disagree. More front, less rear.

GSS138 · 01-13-2014, 02:55 PM

Yeah "the more bar up front causes understeer" is only true once you have too much bar. This happens because it causes load from the inside tire to push onto the loaded outside tire. However until you reach that threshold, more bar up front is generally a good thing.

There are other ways to fix understeer, is what it comes down to. Primary purpose of the sway bar is to reduce body roll, however a side effect of a antisway bar is that it causes some load to be transferred to the outside tire-which ends up causing "push". Push in the front is understeer, push in the rear is oversteer.

Body roll itself does not cause that much understeer mathematically. But it is scary as hell and destabilizes everything when you are going through the esses for example. So the more correct way of looking at it is that a anti sway bar is there to prevent body roll, however when you use one, it is going to affect the way the car handles in terms of under/oversteer. If you did have "too much front bar" yes the front would "push" around the corner.

However I think a better way to solve it would be stiffer front springs, damper settings, and tuning the rear sway correctly which are all valid ways to get the car to rotate. All of those would be better than "not enough front bar to reduce body roll to an acceptable level".

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

cossie1600 · 01-13-2014, 03:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ValidusVentus

I have a few inputs. I would not reccommend the WL bars, because they are solid. The inner material does very little to contribute to the twisting resistance of the bar. This translates to noticeably increased mass with very little gain. Race cars use hollow bars for a reason. I would also question putting a stiffer bar in the front especially while simultaneously removing the rear bar. This might be an OK setup for a drag car (except you might remove the front bar entirely for weight savings) but you will end up with GROSS under steer in low speed corners with those changes. Stock, the car already under steers at the limit, either of those changes by themselves would make the under steer worse but together, man, I would think it'd be tough to go around a corner at all lol. More of the cars mass is already over the front tires so in order to get your weight transfer and hence, grip, somewhat even you need to have more roll resistance on the rear of the car from roll bars assuming you stay with stock spring rates.

I was in your camp until I saw how little a set of stiff springs did for the car, the sway bar is very important in controlling the sway on the car.

ValidusVentus · 01-13-2014, 03:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by synolimit

If you google sway bars that seems correct. Everyone here though would disagree. More front, less rear.

You are of course free to dismiss my opinion, my goal was only to aid the op in making an informed decision by offering my personal experience and knowledge. I have no desire to get into an argument. You may be completely correct. Hope everyone has a great day.

ValidusVentus · 01-13-2014, 03:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

I was in your camp until I saw how little a set of stiff springs did for the car, the sway bar is very important in controlling the sway on the car.

Interesting, I'd be in interested to know which rates you were going from and to on the F/R. Are you speaking of just reducing the feel of body roll or actually changing the balance of grip at the limit?

Edit: could this be cause by unfavorable dynamic camber angles being generated when the car is at maximum roll? The only other thing I could think of is chassis rigidity or bushing deflection being way...bad -which I don't think is the case. If so should that be corrected by a change in static camber or or running a different bar? Cause we can't just change physics, the end of the car with a more highly loaded outside tire is going to have less grip assuming ideal tire contact patch and tire temperature/size.

ValidusVentus · 01-13-2014, 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GSS138

Yeah "the more bar up front causes understeer" is only true once you have too much bar. This happens because it causes load from the inside tire to push onto the loaded outside tire. However until you reach that threshold, more bar up front is generally a good thing.

There are other ways to fix understeer, is what it comes down to. Primary purpose of the sway bar is to reduce body roll, however a side effect of a antisway bar is that it causes some load to be transferred to the outside tire-which ends up causing "push". Push in the front is understeer, push in the rear is oversteer.

Body roll itself does not cause that much understeer mathematically. But it is scary as hell and destabilizes everything when you are going through the esses for example. So the more correct way of looking at it is that a anti sway bar is there to prevent body roll, however when you use one, it is going to affect the way the car handles in terms of under/oversteer. If you did have "too much front bar" yes the front would "push" around the corner.

However I think a better way to solve it would be stiffer front springs, damper settings, and tuning the rear sway correctly which are all valid ways to get the car to rotate. All of those would be better than "not enough front bar to reduce body roll to an acceptable level".

That's my interpretation of it anyway.

Points well made.

Yes the transient responses would definitely be crisper with a stiffer front bar and the car might take a set faster. Turn in would be more direct as well and front end feel would be improved but is it actually causing a gain of absolute grip at the front?

GSS138 · 01-13-2014, 04:56 PM

Tough question to answer. I mean theoretically no, tires are tires and that's it. The body roll itself is not that terrible of a dynamic when talking in terms of total grip. But the bouncy trouncy-ness in my opinion is a very bad dynamic that causes the driver to pause and correct things that don't need to be corrected based on "feel". The body wavering around is also going to cause some loss in grip due to load transfers and just driver uneasiness/unsettling the car.

At the same time a car that is "rolling" over meaning that it has rolled too far, and it is causing some type of camber or roll moment problem, is obviously not acceptable either and needs a sway to tame it. The OEM suspension on this car hits that point quite easily. I can tell you that I could roll this car's front suspension over by probably my 5th track day. Mainly through any type of mid speed esses. Stiffer springs aren't going to help that if the car "falls" off from body roll. There's a point where roll is acceptable vs. losing a little bit of overall theoretical grip in order to not have the car feeling like I'm on a raft.

Riptide67 · 01-20-2014, 06:16 PM

I just managed to win a set of Stillen sways brand new for $145 from a dealership on Ebay. Now I just need some SPL endlinks and I'll be all set!

synolimit · 01-20-2014, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Riptide67

I just managed to win a set of Stillen sways brand new for $145 from a dealership on Ebay. Now I just need some SPL endlinks and I'll be all set!

Don't expect much. They're weaker than the whitelines and I noticed nothing from the WL. You need more bar, a lot more!

Zed-Hed · 01-20-2014, 07:13 PM

I'm curious to know why people feel we need so much sway bar in our cars. When Randy Pobst drove the 2010 nismo for Motor Trend he said it was the car he could drive at the limit more so than any other car in the test.

synolimit · 01-20-2014, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zed-Hed

I'm curious to know why people feel we need so much sway bar in our cars. When Randy Pobst drove the 2010 nismo for Motor Trend he said it was the car he could drive at the limit more so than any other car in the test.

Butt dyno is way different than an actual dyno. Or in this case lap times. He may drive at the limit but raising the limit lowers your lap times.

cossie1600 · 01-20-2014, 11:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zed-Hed

I'm curious to know why people feel we need so much sway bar in our cars. When Randy Pobst drove the 2010 nismo for Motor Trend he said it was the car he could drive at the limit more so than any other car in the test.

It just makes it easier to drive, not everyone is a professional driver.

Zed-Hed · 01-22-2014, 03:54 PM

Nolimit,
What kind of lap time increases have you seen with your mods?

kenchan · 01-22-2014, 04:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zed-Hed

I'm curious to know why people feel we need so much sway bar in our cars. When Randy Pobst drove the 2010 nismo for Motor Trend he said it was the car he could drive at the limit more so than any other car in the test.

last time i checked, my name was not this randy fellow.

synolimit · 01-22-2014, 05:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zed-Hed

Nolimit,
What kind of lap time increases have you seen with your mods?

I've been building the car up since I bought it 6 months ago, and now its winter. No lap times on this particular car.

01-13-2014, 02:27 PM	#46 (permalink)
synolimit A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2013 Location: Columbus, OH Posts: 5,051 Drives: 2013 Silver 370z Rep Power: 3388	If you google sway bars that seems correct. Everyone here though would disagree. More front, less rear. __________________ 13 370z-

01-13-2014, 02:55 PM	#47 (permalink)
GSS138 Track Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 769 Drives: '12 370Z 6M Sport Rep Power: 13	Yeah "the more bar up front causes understeer" is only true once you have too much bar. This happens because it causes load from the inside tire to push onto the loaded outside tire. However until you reach that threshold, more bar up front is generally a good thing. There are other ways to fix understeer, is what it comes down to. Primary purpose of the sway bar is to reduce body roll, however a side effect of a antisway bar is that it causes some load to be transferred to the outside tire-which ends up causing "push". Push in the front is understeer, push in the rear is oversteer. Body roll itself does not cause that much understeer mathematically. But it is scary as hell and destabilizes everything when you are going through the esses for example. So the more correct way of looking at it is that a anti sway bar is there to prevent body roll, however when you use one, it is going to affect the way the car handles in terms of under/oversteer. If you did have "too much front bar" yes the front would "push" around the corner. However I think a better way to solve it would be stiffer front springs, damper settings, and tuning the rear sway correctly which are all valid ways to get the car to rotate. All of those would be better than "not enough front bar to reduce body roll to an acceptable level". That's my interpretation of it anyway. osbornsm and yoyoPR like this. __________________ Current Mods: Vorpal Weapon +5.

01-13-2014, 04:56 PM	#52 (permalink)
GSS138 Track Member Join Date: Mar 2013 Location: Mission Viejo, CA Posts: 769 Drives: '12 370Z 6M Sport Rep Power: 13	Tough question to answer. I mean theoretically no, tires are tires and that's it. The body roll itself is not that terrible of a dynamic when talking in terms of total grip. But the bouncy trouncy-ness in my opinion is a very bad dynamic that causes the driver to pause and correct things that don't need to be corrected based on "feel". The body wavering around is also going to cause some loss in grip due to load transfers and just driver uneasiness/unsettling the car. At the same time a car that is "rolling" over meaning that it has rolled too far, and it is causing some type of camber or roll moment problem, is obviously not acceptable either and needs a sway to tame it. The OEM suspension on this car hits that point quite easily. I can tell you that I could roll this car's front suspension over by probably my 5th track day. Mainly through any type of mid speed esses. Stiffer springs aren't going to help that if the car "falls" off from body roll. There's a point where roll is acceptable vs. losing a little bit of overall theoretical grip in order to not have the car feeling like I'm on a raft. __________________ Current Mods: Vorpal Weapon +5.

01-20-2014, 06:16 PM	#53 (permalink)
Riptide67 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2013 Location: Oak Harbor, WA Age: 36 Posts: 1,610 Drives: 09 Nismo #0483 PW Rep Power: 68	I just managed to win a set of Stillen sways brand new for $145 from a dealership on Ebay. Now I just need some SPL endlinks and I'll be all set! Rusty likes this. __________________ 2009 Nismo 370Z and 1975 Datsun 280Z 2+2 - PNW_INC - Legacy_Ohana Follow me on Instagam @s3zero_z3four

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01-20-2014, 07:13 PM	#55 (permalink)
Zed-Hed Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raleigh,NC Posts: 94 Drives: 2010 Z/2015 Z Rep Power: 20	I'm curious to know why people feel we need so much sway bar in our cars. When Randy Pobst drove the 2010 nismo for Motor Trend he said it was the car he could drive at the limit more so than any other car in the test.

01-22-2014, 03:54 PM	#58 (permalink)
Zed-Hed Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Raleigh,NC Posts: 94 Drives: 2010 Z/2015 Z Rep Power: 20	Nolimit, What kind of lap time increases have you seen with your mods?