sway bars....

ChrisSlicks · 05-24-2009, 05:49 PM

Yes the resulting bar force is linear and equal on both sides as you both described. In order to have different forces on each side you would have to weld the center of the bar to the frame to prevent the forces being spread out the length of the bar.

travisjb · 05-24-2009, 10:05 PM

Chris, that makes sense from a static forces perspective, but would you think about it differently in terms of the instantaneous forces applied before the load can be transferred across the bar? ie whiteline said an asymmetric setup produces asymmetric forces, and they posted data to back it up... regardless, prob all nets out to very little difference, huh?

Phimosis · 05-25-2009, 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by travisjb

Phim, your logic is sound... I've made that same argument on this board... It's called an asymmetric setup, and it is used on occasion... whiteline has collected data on it here http://www.whiteline.com.au/articles...metric_adj.pdf ... they concluded that using an asymmetric setting will result in asymmetric anti-sway forces (go figure!)... it's a nuance

The asymmetry is really only in the position where the end links are bolted to the sway bar, not in the forces applied to the end links. Because the sway bar and end links are gliding in lubricated bushings, the forces applied to each end link at the sway bar end of the end link are equal. To get to the really technical nitty gritty, the force applied to the sway bar end of the end links will be equal, but because the end links will be at a slightly different angles to the lower control arm, the forces are slightly asymmetric based on the angle of the end link in relation to the lower control arm. Ideally, the end link will be perpendicular (90 degrees) to the lower control arm and the control arm will see 100% of the force that the sway bar applies on the end link. If the end link is not perpendicular to the lower control arm, the force on the lower control arm will be (force applied to end link) X (sin theta angle). So if one end link is perpendicular to the lower control arm on the "long setting" and applying 1000kg force, and the other end link is on the "short setting" at theta angle 88 degrees, it will be applying 999.3908 kg force, or 99.94% as much as at the other end, which I believe is negligible.

If that difference is not negligible due to the asymmetry, then the Stillen bar actually has 4 different settings, not 3 as they claim. I would go with calling it a "3 setting" sway bar.

With my usual disclaimer, I have taken calculus based physics, but I was a biology major. If any engineers want to correct my math, please do. It's been 15 years since I have done these types of calculations.

-Phim

travisjb · 05-25-2009, 03:06 AM

I took plenty of phsyics and calculus in engineering school, but have NO INTEREST in correcting your math ! I think you're right, there's prob a difference in angle... forces are placed upon the wheel hubs, that's what the anti-sway bars are for... so, I suspect there is a force difference for asymmetric setups that has nothing to do with the angle at the hub/bar, and that this force difference across sides exists momentarily until the load is fully absorbed by the bar as torsion deflection... at that point, asymmetry is a non-issue... before that point, asymmetry may be an issue, but the thing I don't know is for how much time and does that translate into anything the driver would notice... honestly, we can dispense with all this discussion and just try it !!

and of course, worth going back to whiteline and asking them what they found if you're really curious

ChrisSlicks · 05-25-2009, 09:14 AM

I don't think instantaneous forces are a factor here, those would be so brief they would be unmeasurable and definitely not something the bar is going to have any effect on. The bar is designed to respond to continuous loads not micro bumps.

Now that I've thought about it a little more the asymmetry has more to do with the length of the lever arm being different on each end. The length of the bar will act as a single spring, however because the length of the lever is different on each side the resulting multiplier will be slightly different. So although the spring tension is equal across the length, the lever length twisting the bar is different.

arcticreaver · 05-25-2009, 12:40 PM

could someone tell him which settings would be good for street use and some canyon runs? for both hotchkis and stillen?

Phimosis · 05-29-2009, 06:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by arcticreaver

could someone tell him which settings would be good for street use and some canyon runs? for both hotchkis and stillen?

I like it stiff. I have the Stillen bar on the stiffest setting and my coilovers are at 10, with 0 being the stiffest, 20 being similar to the stock shocks and 32 being the softest. I tried the coil overs at 8, but I was just too choppy for street use and started to "skitter" around over expansion joints and whatnot.

I tell you about the coil overs because the Stillen bar on the stiffest setting may not work well with your shocks. You just have to try it out and see if it feels better or worse to you.

ChrisSlicks · 05-29-2009, 08:56 PM

I'll be installing the Hotchkis sway bars on the stock suspension this weekend. I'll try the full stiff setting first and let you know how it is.

blackbird · 06-04-2009, 08:10 PM

Just an FYI but he NISMO Coils, Shocks and sway bars work very nicely. Tightens up ride but not harsh.

racerxj17 · 06-15-2009, 08:44 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by alan93rsa

If I have time before I drop my car off I will remove the Hotchkis bars. They and the Eibachs were not part of the deal. I won't bother with the effort to remove the Eibachs.

The Hotchkis bars seemed to be a good product.

any noise from them? mine seem to shift around a make a bit of noise.

boosted180 · 08-17-2009, 11:00 PM

[QUOTE=Phimosis;74379 .......The stock front sway bar in the 370z is pretty close to optimal for agressive street use, but the rear sway bar is just too soft for aggressive street driving or track use......
-Phim[/QUOTE]

the balance of the stock 370z is a bit understeer. for auto-x, i would prefer a more neutral feel. for track, it's actually not too bad. the stillen front bar is 27% stiffer than stock and rear can be adjusted to up to 70% stiffer than stock. but you're saying that even with the stiffest setting in the rear, it's still understeering? i dont understand.

what i would guess based how the car feels to me is that the rear needs to be about 15%-20% stiffer relative to fronts for a neutral feel. (all else staying the same). in other words if the front bars increase by 27%, i would want the rears to increase by 47%.

70% would be big time oversteer, it would seem. but sounds like this is not your experience.....

05-24-2009, 10:05 PM	#47 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 188	Chris, that makes sense from a static forces perspective, but would you think about it differently in terms of the instantaneous forces applied before the load can be transferred across the bar? ie whiteline said an asymmetric setup produces asymmetric forces, and they posted data to back it up... regardless, prob all nets out to very little difference, huh? __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

05-25-2009, 03:06 AM	#49 (permalink)
travisjb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: GSO Posts: 2,803 Drives: VIR Rep Power: 188	I took plenty of phsyics and calculus in engineering school, but have NO INTEREST in correcting your math ! I think you're right, there's prob a difference in angle... forces are placed upon the wheel hubs, that's what the anti-sway bars are for... so, I suspect there is a force difference for asymmetric setups that has nothing to do with the angle at the hub/bar, and that this force difference across sides exists momentarily until the load is fully absorbed by the bar as torsion deflection... at that point, asymmetry is a non-issue... before that point, asymmetry may be an issue, but the thing I don't know is for how much time and does that translate into anything the driver would notice... honestly, we can dispense with all this discussion and just try it !! and of course, worth going back to whiteline and asking them what they found if you're really curious __________________ 2009 370Z #104 For Sale

05-25-2009, 12:40 PM	#51 (permalink)
arcticreaver Track Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Arcadia, CA Posts: 769 Drives: 2009 Z34 7AT PG Rep Power: 924	could someone tell him which settings would be good for street use and some canyon runs? for both hotchkis and stillen? __________________ http://www.facebook.com/arcticreaver - FaceBook http://www.linkedin.com/pub/sam-yang/a/832/325 - LinkedIn Profile

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
Stock 370z Touring Sport - Sway Bars FS	DannyGT	Parts for sale (Private Classifieds)	2	06-02-2009 07:06 PM
Question about Sway Bars	prodigyz	Brakes & Suspension	9	04-29-2009 08:21 PM
Intro Pricing - STILLEN Sway Bars & Eibach Springs!	Josh@STILLEN	Brakes & Suspension	12	04-14-2009 07:29 PM
Nissan 370Z Sway Bars: Stock Vs. Hotchkis	Asheth	Brakes & Suspension	6	02-08-2009 11:21 AM

05-24-2009, 05:49 PM	#46 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	Yes the resulting bar force is linear and equal on both sides as you both described. In order to have different forces on each side you would have to weld the center of the bar to the frame to prevent the forces being spread out the length of the bar.

05-25-2009, 09:14 AM	#50 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	I don't think instantaneous forces are a factor here, those would be so brief they would be unmeasurable and definitely not something the bar is going to have any effect on. The bar is designed to respond to continuous loads not micro bumps. Now that I've thought about it a little more the asymmetry has more to do with the length of the lever arm being different on each end. The length of the bar will act as a single spring, however because the length of the lever is different on each side the resulting multiplier will be slightly different. So although the spring tension is equal across the length, the lever length twisting the bar is different.

05-29-2009, 08:56 PM	#53 (permalink)
ChrisSlicks A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: North East Posts: 6,203 Drives: 09 370Z Sport M6 Rep Power: 653	I'll be installing the Hotchkis sway bars on the stock suspension this weekend. I'll try the full stiff setting first and let you know how it is.

06-04-2009, 08:10 PM	#54 (permalink)
blackbird Base Member Join Date: May 2009 Location: Nashua NH Posts: 178 Drives: 09 370Z BLk GTM TT Rep Power: 15	Just an FYI but he NISMO Coils, Shocks and sway bars work very nicely. Tightens up ride but not harsh.

08-17-2009, 11:00 PM	#56 (permalink)
boosted180 Base Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: long beach Posts: 188 Drives: '09 370z sport 6m Rep Power: 15	[QUOTE=Phimosis;74379 .......The stock front sway bar in the 370z is pretty close to optimal for agressive street use, but the rear sway bar is just too soft for aggressive street driving or track use...... -Phim[/QUOTE] the balance of the stock 370z is a bit understeer. for auto-x, i would prefer a more neutral feel. for track, it's actually not too bad. the stillen front bar is 27% stiffer than stock and rear can be adjusted to up to 70% stiffer than stock. but you're saying that even with the stiffest setting in the rear, it's still understeering? i dont understand. what i would guess based how the car feels to me is that the rear needs to be about 15%-20% stiffer relative to fronts for a neutral feel. (all else staying the same). in other words if the front bars increase by 27%, i would want the rears to increase by 47%. 70% would be big time oversteer, it would seem. but sounds like this is not your experience.....