Rollbar / seats / harness stuff, yet again...

ryan0 · 02-14-2012, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Most of the stock parts are designed to give. Even the "hard" bits on them. They'd really hurt to smash your head on, but they *will* give a little. That rollbar won't give, ever. Top windshield frame is kind of out of the picture though, unless you have no seatbelts and no airbags.

Being strapped into a harness without a rollbar over your head is definitely-bad. You roll over and you're basically dead.

a B pillar will not give... it is designed as a 'roll bar'. you think a b-pillar will give if your head hits it, but won't give if the car actually rolls over? (its designed purpose)

and as far as the windshield frame goes (see above)... but also you'd be surprised how much stretching and movement goes on in a crash.

agreed that being strapped in w/o roll over protection CAN be bad. thats why i was asking how they hold up in a roll over. if they hold up pretty well, then i'd rather gamble that my odds of hitting something sideways, or head on, were much greater than being involved in a roll over.

tracking cars safely usually comes down to playing odds...

chances are you are going to hit something at an angle... rollovers are a long shot compared to impact.

in this case he is saying he is going to track the car anyway, and only place a little emphasis on safety for now... fine... his call.

factor in the odds of an 'earnhardt' vs a roll over... how well the OEM roof holds up... the fact that he is going to run 4-pts (available submarine room)... and a reclinable seat (available collapse room).

my money is on harness bar and HANS...

sig11 · 02-14-2012, 12:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Either that or completely reverse course, undo a bit of the more aggressive Z mods, keep it as a DD, and buy some cheaper caged car for track use (e.g. all the SpecZ thread action going on around here).

This is pretty much exactly what I've decided to do. I like driving the Z on the street too much to give it up right now.

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.Bonanni

Try a CG-Lock for now. It at least keeps your lap belt tight, and its only $60. Can be used on any car with 3-point belts too. I still use the one I bought 6 years ago.

Car Booster Seat Safety - CG-Lock.com

CG-Locks are AWESOME. Really helps with the left leg fatigue. I've used them since about half way through my first season doing HPDEs.

Glad to read this thread. It sort-of backs up the decisions I made this winter about my car and streetability. I AM still going to toss in race seats and 6pt harnesses with a harness bar though. I figure it's an acceptable risk in my calculations. I actually just sent an email to a local shop I trust to do the install since I don't know that I will have time before my first event.

wstar · 02-14-2012, 10:41 AM

In any case, thanks for the feedback you two, it's really helped to put this all in perspective. I've been pushing myself and my car to get more serious, but there's a big gap in front of me between where I'm at now, and where I'd like to be, and I really need to step back from this and cross the gap rationally. I've been trying to find a way to make the care more-race-able without giving it up as a street car for now, but it's just not possible in this direction (4 point).

I'll keep going with the other minor upgrades for now. I've been trying to limit my further upgrades to happening in response to actually feeling out limitations, which is why I held off on coilover upgrades for so long: it wasn't until my most recent event that I actually felt limited by the stock ones (the car was poirposing too much in some short braking zones, probably contributed to ice-mode come to think of it).

I'm at a point now where I feel the need for harnesses on the track, but I think I have to live with that limitation for now, until the car becomes more-dedicated to the purpose at hand (which in turn means I pretty much have to budget out a new DD first, and then get back on the car-building process).

Either that or completely reverse course, undo a bit of the more aggressive Z mods, keep it as a DD, and buy some cheaper caged car for track use (e.g. all the SpecZ thread action going on around here). I'd hate to have to give up my cheater paddle shifters though!

Mike · 02-14-2012, 06:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Either that or completely reverse course, undo a bit of the more aggressive Z mods, keep it as a DD, and buy some cheaper caged car for track use (e.g. all the SpecZ thread action going on around here). I'd hate to have to give up my cheater paddle shifters though!

I'm going to really miss my SRM when I go Spec Z!

daisuke149 · 02-14-2012, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

I'm going to really miss my SRM when I go Spec Z!

use an auto then

!

M.Bonanni · 02-14-2012, 10:54 AM

Try a CG-Lock for now. It at least keeps your lap belt tight, and its only $60. Can be used on any car with 3-point belts too. I still use the one I bought 6 years ago.

Car Booster Seat Safety - CG-Lock.com

wstar · 02-14-2012, 10:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by M.Bonanni

Try a CG-Lock for now. It at least keeps your lap belt tight, and its only $60. Can be used on any car with 3-point belts too. I still use the one I bought 6 years ago.

Car Booster Seat Safety - CG-Lock.com

Hah, you read my mind, I just ordered one through Amazon about 10 minutes before I posted above

I'm a little bit dubious of it, but I'm sure it'll be better than nothing.

edconline · 02-14-2012, 03:28 PM

Good thread, some good info in here. I too am going the route of a harness bar with 5-point harness/racing seats for the track. Several reasons, however the primary two are:

1) I agree that a roll bar is the best solution to help ensure you are not crushed in a rollover while wearing a harness, however I do not believe that the car was built with the concept of your body 'falling' into the middle to protect you from being crushed in a roll. This is what the B Pillars are there for, and while certainly not as effective as a roll bar, I am confident that they will in many cases prevent the roof from crushing in on you.

2) The only time I will be wearing the harness is at the track. I think it can be reasonably said that in any type of a crash where you are wearing a harness, that does not involve a roll (assuming a hans device is used with the harness), you are better protected with the harness than without it, regardless of whether it is fastened to a harness bar or roll bar. Also, based on the tracks/Auto-x places I will be going to, the chances of a roll are slim to none, which means despite that added risk in one, unlikely type of crash, the added safety in all other possible crashes more than makes up for it.

I believe there is a picture/post on here of a member that rolled his 350Z down a hill while wearing a harness, without a roll bar, who stated that wearing the harness likely made a big difference. (In that he was uninjured)

Obviously the decision to use a harness without a roll bar is going to come down to what each person is comfortable with (and regulations of the tracks you are at) but for me, the harness bar is a more than acceptable alternative to a roll bar/full cage.

wstar · 02-14-2012, 04:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edconline

1) I do not believe that the car was built with the concept of your body 'falling' into the middle to protect you from being crushed in a roll. This is what the B Pillars are there for, and while certainly not as effective as a roll bar, I am confident that they will in many cases prevent the roof from crushing in on you.

It definitely is designed around this concept. The 3-point belts do this automatically by design (allow you to fall to the inside). Re: the B-pillar, I'll say what I said 30 seconds ago in the other post: it helps, but it can be pushed over or flattened depending on the accident. And if the B-pillar falls, and you're locked into a harness, your neck is the next thing in line for the car's force.

SPOHN · 02-14-2012, 07:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edconline

I believe there is a picture/post on here of a member that rolled his 350Z down a hill while wearing a harness, without a roll bar, who stated that wearing the harness likely made a big difference. (In that he was uninjured)

That was me. And it sure did. I had seats, harness, and a harness bar that did brace between the stock seatbelt mounts. I rolled four times side over side hitting some big rocks. The first roll was a straight drop of about 30 foot plus. I was very supported within the car. The roof did hit my head but it wasn't bad nor did hurt me. I was just a little shaken up. Mostly nerves. Not to say luck didn't play a part. I see where both of you other guys are coming from.

ryan0 · 02-15-2012, 12:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by edconline

Obviously the decision to use a harness without a roll bar is going to come down to what each person is comfortable with (and regulations of the tracks you are at) but for me, the harness bar is a more than acceptable alternative to a roll bar/full cage.

that is the only reason i posted in this thread... the almost elitist version of 'you're an idiot if you use a harness with out a full cage' has magically been accepted as law, and is now the first response you hear when the question is asked.

lots of different factors need to be weighed.. if you're in a cobra or miata with no hoop, a big tall seat with 6 pts is probably a bad idea. if you're in a mini-van with huge head room and proven roll over protection you'd be stupid not to wear a harness.

in a perfect world, everyone would have full cages and NASCAR bars... but thats not the case... and i don't feel that the only opinion given should be 'full race or OEM, with nothing in between'.

martin82 · 02-14-2012, 08:56 PM

damn why did you do a baja race on a street car lol jkkk. Glad u walked on that one!

SPOHN · 02-14-2012, 09:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martin82

damn why did you do a baja race on a street car lol jkkk. Glad u walked on that one!

That's why I quit school. Because the have recess and I don't play.

wstar · 02-15-2012, 02:07 PM

Backtracking a bit, does anyone have any better info on this aspect:

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

It would be more-ideal if my seats had anti-sub holes and I could install a 6-point, but I think the Scroth ASM thing seems like a pretty decent solution to that problem for now.

I've seen some references to the idea of using a 6-point harness without seat-floor holes (and without the stupid move of going over the front of the seat), by basically routing them under your *** and out the same exit as the lap belts, apparently used in some formula cars. The concept and mounting angles and effectiveness of that setup are a little unclear to me though.

Is it possible to safely use a 6-point and get the anti-sub benefits without having anti-sub seat holes? If so, do you mount them to the same anchor as the lap belt, after routing them under your *** and out the same area of the seat as the lap belt?

ryan0 · 02-15-2012, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

Backtracking a bit, does anyone have any better info on this aspect:

Is it possible to safely use a 6-point and get the anti-sub benefits without having anti-sub seat holes? If so, do you mount them to the same anchor as the lap belt, after routing them under your *** and out the same area of the seat as the lap belt?

TeamTech Motorsports - Racing Harness - Jet Pilot Harness

02-14-2012, 10:41 AM	#3 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	In any case, thanks for the feedback you two, it's really helped to put this all in perspective. I've been pushing myself and my car to get more serious, but there's a big gap in front of me between where I'm at now, and where I'd like to be, and I really need to step back from this and cross the gap rationally. I've been trying to find a way to make the care more-race-able without giving it up as a street car for now, but it's just not possible in this direction (4 point). I'll keep going with the other minor upgrades for now. I've been trying to limit my further upgrades to happening in response to actually feeling out limitations, which is why I held off on coilover upgrades for so long: it wasn't until my most recent event that I actually felt limited by the stock ones (the car was poirposing too much in some short braking zones, probably contributed to ice-mode come to think of it). I'm at a point now where I feel the need for harnesses on the track, but I think I have to live with that limitation for now, until the car becomes more-dedicated to the purpose at hand (which in turn means I pretty much have to budget out a new DD first, and then get back on the car-building process). Either that or completely reverse course, undo a bit of the more aggressive Z mods, keep it as a DD, and buy some cheaper caged car for track use (e.g. all the SpecZ thread action going on around here). I'd hate to have to give up my cheater paddle shifters though! __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

02-14-2012, 10:54 AM	#6 (permalink)
M.Bonanni The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 2,575 Drives: Fast Rep Power: 1321	Try a CG-Lock for now. It at least keeps your lap belt tight, and its only $60. Can be used on any car with 3-point belts too. I still use the one I bought 6 years ago. Car Booster Seat Safety - CG-Lock.com __________________ MikeBonanni.com Twitter: http://www.twitter.com/MikeBonanni Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/MBonanni36 Function > Form

02-14-2012, 03:28 PM	#8 (permalink)
edconline Track Member Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Edmonton Posts: 855 Drives: 10' MB Z34 6MT T/S/N Rep Power: 23	Good thread, some good info in here. I too am going the route of a harness bar with 5-point harness/racing seats for the track. Several reasons, however the primary two are: 1) I agree that a roll bar is the best solution to help ensure you are not crushed in a rollover while wearing a harness, however I do not believe that the car was built with the concept of your body 'falling' into the middle to protect you from being crushed in a roll. This is what the B Pillars are there for, and while certainly not as effective as a roll bar, I am confident that they will in many cases prevent the roof from crushing in on you. 2) The only time I will be wearing the harness is at the track. I think it can be reasonably said that in any type of a crash where you are wearing a harness, that does not involve a roll (assuming a hans device is used with the harness), you are better protected with the harness than without it, regardless of whether it is fastened to a harness bar or roll bar. Also, based on the tracks/Auto-x places I will be going to, the chances of a roll are slim to none, which means despite that added risk in one, unlikely type of crash, the added safety in all other possible crashes more than makes up for it. I believe there is a picture/post on here of a member that rolled his 350Z down a hill while wearing a harness, without a roll bar, who stated that wearing the harness likely made a big difference. (In that he was uninjured) Obviously the decision to use a harness without a roll bar is going to come down to what each person is comfortable with (and regulations of the tracks you are at) but for me, the harness bar is a more than acceptable alternative to a roll bar/full cage. __________________ View Journal Audio Build

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02-14-2012, 08:56 PM	#12 (permalink)
martin82 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: los angeles Posts: 2,636 Drives: 12 Nissan 370Z MB M6 Rep Power: 20	damn why did you do a baja race on a street car lol jkkk. Glad u walked on that one!