2021 Formula 1 Thread

[abm89]

If my memory serves correctly, the tire compound was changed because of the blow-outs in Baku right? Red Bull has had the advantage in tire performance for most of the Pirelli era excluding the last two years when Mercedes finally figured out how to not kill the tires. Chopping the floor and restricting engine modes has done more in RB's favor than beefing up the compounds. Not to mention DAS, FRIC, and other Mercedes innovations that were banned in the turbo-hybrid era.

RB used to push the envelope with innovative tech, especially with the off-throttle blown diffusers, but now it seems they spend more time lobbying to pull other teams back (Not giving Ferrari a pass on their fuel flow shenanigans. That was clearly cheating). Merc has operated within the FIA rule-set, to the point of even having the FIA review their design for DAS and getting it approved. It still ended up getting banned in 2021 because "oh man, we didn't come up with that!"



While operating in the gray area is a usual thing in this sport, I have no sympathy for RB.

[ZCanadian]

Originally Posted by abm89

If my memory serves correctly, the tire compound was changed because of the blow-outs in Baku right? Red Bull has had the advantage in tire performance for most of the Pirelli era excluding the last two years when Mercedes finally figured out how to not kill the tires. Chopping the floor and restricting engine modes has done more in RB's favor than beefing up the compounds. Not to mention DAS, FRIC, and other Mercedes innovations that were banned in the turbo-hybrid era.

RB used to push the envelope with innovative tech, especially with the off-throttle blown diffusers, but now it seems they spend more time lobbying to pull other teams back (Not giving Ferrari a pass on their fuel flow shenanigans. That was clearly cheating). Merc has operated within the FIA rule-set, to the point of even having the FIA review their design for DAS and getting it approved. It still ended up getting banned in 2021 because "oh man, we didn't come up with that!"



While operating in the gray area is a usual thing in this sport, I have no sympathy for RB.

Our memories must be different.
I don't recall any constructors' championship winners in the hybrid turbo era except Mercedes. Mostly by over 250 points.

Two blowouts from Baku were the public reason for the compound change. One assumes that more analysis was done, but we're not privy to it. I don't recall any other unexplained tire failures this season before Silverstone. But maybe that was coincidence.

Everyone pushes the envelope. Be it RB trying to include a horsepower increase in an engine swap, to Ferrari doing whatever they were doing in 2018-2019, to DAS. And 1000 other initiatives. Some have been good for the sport, others not so much. I'm not sure if Mercedes lives within the rules, or is just better at hiding it. Clearly, they sold their 2019 car plans to Tracing Point - that was not a case of clever copying. Might have been Stoll's indiscretion, but a transaction takes two parties.

I'm not in anyone's camp particularly, and agree that when litigation / lobbying becomes more important than racing, then the sport suffers.

[abm89]

I don't recall any constructors' championship winners in the hybrid turbo era except Mercedes. Mostly by over 250 points.

I don't know why you're bringing that up. I specifically mentioned overall tire performance.

Two blowouts from Baku were the public reason for the compound change. One assumes that more analysis was done, but we're not privy to it. I don't recall any other unexplained tire failures this season before Silverstone. But maybe that was coincidence.

This is purely conjecture. There are reports that Pirelli stated the blowouts were due to improper running conditions (ie. pressures), and they enforced checks in the subsequent races, not a compound swap (to correct myself). I couldn't find anything about a compound swap, but Verstappen's pace at Silverstone makes that argument a moot point.

Everyone pushes the envelope. Be it RB trying to include a horsepower increase in an engine swap, to Ferrari doing whatever they were doing in 2018-2019, to DAS. And 1000 other initiatives. Some have been good for the sport, others not so much. I'm not sure if Mercedes lives within the rules, or is just better at hiding it.

True, but my point earlier outlined how the teams go about exploiting those gray areas. There is a notable difference between making the changes and getting clarifications on the interpretations of the rule-set before running the parts in competition.

Clearly, they sold their 2019 car plans to Tracing Point - that was not a case of clever copying. Might have been Stoll's indiscretion, but a transaction takes two parties.

Again, wildly accusative claims. There was never any proof that the car design it self was sold to Racing Point. With technology today, it is easily possible to design a look-alike car with imaging technology. The one thing that IS a fact with that saga is that the rear brake duct designs were not introduced in 2019, thus rendering them illegal to use in 2020 based on the rules. Listed parts are allowed to be shared between teams so long as they followed that rule. The front duct designs were introduced in 2019 thus being legal. Now, if you want to scrutinize the handling of the FIA allowing the team to continue to use the rear brake ducts in 2020, that's a totally different argument. Combine this with the fact that Racing Point had the FIA check over what they were doing throughout the design process, it is hard to believe that the whole car design was outright sold from Mercedes. More info on that issue and how it a solution was approached for 2021 here.

[ZCanadian]

Originally Posted by abm89

I don't recall any constructors' championship winners in the hybrid turbo era except Mercedes. Mostly by over 250 points.

I don't know why you're bringing that up. I specifically mentioned overall tire performance.

Two blowouts from Baku were the public reason for the compound change. One assumes that more analysis was done, but we're not privy to it. I don't recall any other unexplained tire failures this season before Silverstone. But maybe that was coincidence.

This is purely conjecture. There are reports that Pirelli stated the blowouts were due to improper running conditions (ie. pressures), and they enforced checks in the subsequent races, not a compound swap (to correct myself). I couldn't find anything about a compound swap, but Verstappen's pace at Silverstone makes that argument a moot point.

Everyone pushes the envelope. Be it RB trying to include a horsepower increase in an engine swap, to Ferrari doing whatever they were doing in 2018-2019, to DAS. And 1000 other initiatives. Some have been good for the sport, others not so much. I'm not sure if Mercedes lives within the rules, or is just better at hiding it.

True, but my point earlier outlined how the teams go about exploiting those gray areas. There is a notable difference between making the changes and getting clarifications on the interpretations of the rule-set before running the parts in competition.

Clearly, they sold their 2019 car plans to Tracing Point - that was not a case of clever copying. Might have been Stoll's indiscretion, but a transaction takes two parties.

Again, wildly accusative claims. There was never any proof that the car design it self was sold to Racing Point. With technology today, it is easily possible to design a look-alike car with imaging technology. The one thing that IS a fact with that saga is that the rear brake duct designs were not introduced in 2019, thus rendering them illegal to use in 2020 based on the rules. Listed parts are allowed to be shared between teams so long as they followed that rule. The front duct designs were introduced in 2019 thus being legal. Now, if you want to scrutinize the handling of the FIA allowing the team to continue to use the rear brake ducts in 2020, that's a totally different argument. Combine this with the fact that Racing Point had the FIA check over what they were doing throughout the design process, it is hard to believe that the whole car design was outright sold from Mercedes. More info on that issue and how it a solution was approached for 2021 here.

I couldn't leave this alone...

I don't know why you're bringing that up. I specifically mentioned overall tire performance.

Um, how about because the change to the current generation car was THE BIGGEST single change in Formula 1. Merc got the chassis to work with the tires from the get go. Everyone else was left struggling. Clearly, tires are the number one factor in modern racing.

This is purely conjecture. There are reports that Pirelli stated the blowouts were due to improper running conditions (ie. pressures), and they enforced checks in the subsequent races, not a compound swap (to correct myself). I couldn't find anything about a compound swap, but Verstappen's pace at Silverstone makes that argument a moot point.

You are making my point for me. Why, if not for the publicized reason of safety after the blowouts, would a change (that appears to have worked to Mercedes advantage) have been made. Oh wait, maybe I answered my own question.

Again, wildly accusative claims. There was never any proof that the car design it self was sold to Racing Point. With technology today, it is easily possible to design a look-alike car with imaging technology. The one thing that IS a fact with that saga is that the rear brake duct designs were not introduced in 2019, thus rendering them illegal to use in 2020 based on the rules. Listed parts are allowed to be shared between teams so long as they followed that rule. The front duct designs were introduced in 2019 thus being legal. Now, if you want to scrutinize the handling of the FIA allowing the team to continue to use the rear brake ducts in 2020, that's a totally different argument. Combine this with the fact that Racing Point had the FIA check over what they were doing throughout the design process, it is hard to believe that the whole car design was outright sold from Mercedes. More info on that issue and how it a solution was approached for 2021 here.[/QUOTE]

How about the lack of legal action (or any comment whatsoever) from Mercedes? If Renault or Red Bull had pulled onto the grid in 2020 in a Mercedes clone, do you think they would have been silent? I rest my case on that one.

[abm89]

Um, how about because the change to the current generation car was THE BIGGEST single change in Formula 1. Merc got the chassis to work with the tires from the get go. Everyone else was left struggling. Clearly, tires are the number one factor in modern racing.

Anyone who has watched F1 in the turbo-hybrid era knows that Mercedes's biggest weakness until 2019 was overworking their tires. By comparison to Ferrari and Red Bull, they could not do longer stints, especially on the softer compounds, which is why you saw Mercedes run the harder compounds as a race tire. That's pretty clear. AMG got the jump on everyone due to their superior power-unit design and a decent enough aero package, not the tires. In 2017 and 2018, they were finally caught by Ferrari who were clearly better on their tires, but were able to capitalize on the Italian team's mistakes.

You are making my point for me. Why, if not for the publicized reason of safety after the blowouts, would a change (that appears to have worked to Mercedes advantage) have been made. Oh wait, maybe I answered my own question.

Teams running into tire trouble because of running the pressures outside of the recommended parameters is not new. Neither is the FIA working with Pirelli issuing directives to stop teams from doing this. There's no evidence to suggest the FIA's motive for this change would be to help Mercedes.

How about the lack of legal action (or any comment whatsoever) from Mercedes? If Renault or Red Bull had pulled onto the grid in 2020 in a Mercedes clone, do you think they would have been silent? I rest my case on that one.

Again, pure speculation on what "could" or "would" have happened. By FIA rules, Everything but the rear brake ducts were legal and above-board. Was it sporting of Racing Point to do this? There is a valid argument for someone to say that it was not in the "spirit" of the rules.

However, if I had to speculate, Mercedes was not worried about a copy-cat car because understanding their concept does not come with the car itself (see Aston Martin's relative performance this year). On top of that, Red Bull would not have copied the Mercedes design as they strongly believe their philosophy of a shorter wheelbase, high-rake design is superior for aerodynamic grip. They've ran this style of car since the 2010s to great success, so other than their power-unit, why would they change?

I'm sure there are plenty of things we aren't privy to as fans, but there's no hard evidence that the FIA is fixing things in Mercedes's favor. Otherwise, they wouldn't have introduced multiple rules to reel them back. The shadiest thing they've done in recent times was their "private agreement" with Ferrari after the technical directive was issued for the fuel flow rates.

[DLSTR]

Um, how about because the change to the current generation car was THE BIGGEST single change in Formula 1. Merc got the chassis to work with the tires from the get go. Everyone else was left struggling. Clearly, tires are the number one factor in modern racing.

ABM89-Anyone who has watched F1 in the turbo-hybrid era knows that Mercedes's biggest weakness until 2019 was overworking their tires. By comparison to Ferrari and Red Bull, they could not do longer stints, especially on the softer compounds, which is why you saw Mercedes run the harder compounds as a race tire. That's pretty clear. AMG got the jump on everyone due to their superior power-unit design and a decent enough aero package, not the tires. In 2017 and 2018, they were finally caught by Ferrari who were clearly better on their tires, but were able to capitalize on the Italian team's mistakes. --SPOT ON! Race after race endless commentating on this tire issue!!

You are making my point for me. Why, if not for the publicized reason of safety after the blowouts, would a change (that appears to have worked to Mercedes advantage) have been made. Oh wait, maybe I answered my own question.

ABM89-Teams running into tire trouble because of running the pressures outside of the recommended parameters is not new. Neither is the FIA working with Pirelli issuing directives to stop teams from doing this. There's no evidence to suggest the FIA's motive for this change would be to help Mercedes.
--Plenty of teams doing this! Add illegal tire warming as well

How about the lack of legal action (or any comment whatsoever) from Mercedes? If Renault or Red Bull had pulled onto the grid in 2020 in a Mercedes clone, do you think they would have been silent? I rest my case on that one.

ABM89-Again, pure speculation on what "could" or "would" have happened. By FIA rules, Everything but the rear brake ducts were legal and above-board. Was it sporting of Racing Point to do this? There is a valid argument for someone to say that it was not in the "spirit" of the rules.

However, if I had to speculate, Mercedes was not worried about a copy-cat car because understanding their concept does not come with the car itself (see Aston Martin's relative performance this year). On top of that, Red Bull would not have copied the Mercedes design as they strongly believe their philosophy of a shorter wheelbase, high-rake design is superior for aerodynamic grip. They've ran this style of car since the 2010s to great success, so other than their power-unit, why would they change?

Winner!Ding! Just a Billionaire taking shortcuts - they still have not won a race and Lance is not a good driver -barely average overall!!

ABM89-I'm sure there are plenty of things we aren't privy to as fans, but there's no hard evidence that the FIA is fixing things in Mercedes's favor. Otherwise, they wouldn't have introduced multiple rules to reel them back. The shadiest thing they've done in recent times was their "private agreement" with Ferrari after the technical directive was issued for the fuel flow rates

- Ding!! No proof anywhere of FIA favoring Mercedes! Jealous teams complaining-- YES!!

[danegrey]

Originally Posted by DLSTR

[B]


- Ding!! No proof anywhere of FIA favoring Mercedes! Jealous teams complaining-- YES!!