2021 Formula 1 Thread

[DLSTR]

Originally Posted by JARblue

Did I hear they were seeing a 15-20 kph gap at the end of the straights? That's more than RB can make up with DRS active. Uh-oh lol

That is why Horner is so worried. NO DRS and they are much faster. Honda needs to do some work. My guess, without announcing it, RedBull are now working more on the new car for 22.

[abm89]

I'm not gonna lie, i slept through most of the race and I'm kinda glad I did. Looked like a snooze fest.

[DLSTR]

BBC reports on the power issue -- https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/formula1/58870237

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner has expressed his "surprise" at gains he says Mercedes have made with their engine performance.

Under Formula 1's rules, the title rivals are not allowed to improve the power of their engines in-season.

Horner said Mercedes' straight-line speed "has taken a significant step recently".

"It's surprising they appear to have made the step they have with the power-unit," he added.

Mercedes reject Red Bull's claims, saying nothing has changed in their engine apart from fitting a new one to Hamilton's car for last weekend's Turkish Grand Prix.



Both Hamilton and title rival Max Verstappen of Red Bull have taken new engines - at the cost of grid penalties - over the last two races, Verstappen at the previous race in Russia, Hamilton in Turkey.

Verstappen leads Hamilton by six points with six races to go after the Dutchman finished second in Sunday's Turkish Grand Prix and Hamilton in fifth.


Internal combustion engines always degrade over time, so Hamilton's new engine will have provided a small performance advantage over the one he was using previously.

Red Bull's claims echo similar ones Hamilton himself made about his rival's Honda engine earlier in the season.

Red Bull made an apparent step forward in performance around the time of the French Grand Prix in early summer, and Hamilton publicly questioned how they had been able to do that.

Red Bull's explanation at the time was that aerodynamic upgrades to their car had allowed them to run smaller rear wings, reducing drag and boosting straight-line speed, without harming cornering performance.

Horner said: "We could match them with smaller [rear] wings previously; now we can't get near. And we saw that particularly at this circuit, where Lewis had a straight-line advantage with a bigger rear wing on the car."

Horner added that reliability problems with the Mercedes engine could also be affecting impressions of performance.

"You can see across all their teams Mercedes obviously have some reliability issues they are managing, which is unusual for Mercedes," Horner said. "But their performance is still incredibly impressive.

"Whether one comes at the expense of the other, I don't know, but if you look at some of the speed deltas on the back straight at some points it was 15-20km/h, which is more than if there had been DRS (overtaking aid in use)."

Mercedes say they are puzzled by Horner's suggestions, saying they are not borne out in the data.

Mercedes F1 boss Toto Wolff admitted the company were managing reliability against performance with their engines.

"When you start to push the boundaries with power-unit performance, at a certain stage you will experience some obstacles," he said.

"Our power-units have been the most reliable since the introduction of the hybrid engines in 2014 and and because the boundaries are being pushed we have seen examples of, let's say, unusual noises within the combustion engine that aren't completely understood at that stage yet.

"They caused some troubles in the past; we had some engines that basically failed and now it's about containing the problem because changing parts is not something you would tackle."

Mercedes appear to have made a step forward in overall performance compared to Red Bull since F1 reconvened following its summer break.

Over the first half of the season, Red Bull had an average advantage in qualifying of 0.026%.

In the three dry qualifying sessions in the second half of the season so far, Mercedes have had an advantage of 0.286%.

However, the three tracks in question - Monza, Sochi and Istanbul Park - are regarded as favouring Mercedes, whereas two of the remaining six races - Mexico and Brazil - are expected to significantly advantage Red Bull.

[DLSTR]

https://www.gpfans.com/en/f1-news/70...ext-two-years/

Ewan Gale
Tuesday 12 October 2021 11:50

Red Bull team principal Christian Horner has labelled the extended partnership with Honda past the end of the year as "great news" for the team and revealed power unit parts will be made in Japan through 2023.

Despite Honda's withdrawal from F1 at the end of the season, the two parties agreed to a prolonged partnership covering all motorsport activities and the junior programmes for both Red Bull and Honda.


Red Bull takes over Honda's PU IP for 2022 onwards but had already said the Japanese manufacturer would supply engines from Sakura for the first year of the Red Bull Powertrains initiative.

Horner has suggested, however, the manufacturing of parts will remain in Japan until at least 2024.

[ZCanadian]

I guess Red Bull Powertrains won't be ready for a while yet.
That's one heck of a commitment to Formula racing from Red Bull.
Wonder if they will try to offer engines to other teams, or if their contract with Honda locks them into only their two teams?
Does this extend to F2 powerplants as well? I haven't been paying attention.

And will this affect the rumoured addition of VAG in 2026, I wonder? Were they considering running a team (and if so, buying one of the existing 10, or starting #11), or just supplying engines? Seems that the market for engines just got 20% smaller. RBR isn't going to make this investment for only 4 years. Ferrari and Mercedes aren't going anywhere, and Renault/Alpine won't likely buy an outsourced engine unless the parent company merges in future.

[DLSTR]

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

I guess Red Bull Powertrains won't be ready for a while yet.
That's one heck of a commitment to Formula racing from Red Bull.
Wonder if they will try to offer engines to other teams, or if their contract with Honda locks them into only their two teams?
Does this extend to F2 powerplants as well? I haven't been paying attention.

And will this affect the rumoured addition of VAG in 2026, I wonder? Were they considering running a team (and if so, buying one of the existing 10, or starting #11), or just supplying engines? Seems that the market for engines just got 20% smaller. RBR isn't going to make this investment for only 4 years. Ferrari and Mercedes aren't going anywhere, and Renault/Alpine won't likely buy an outsourced engine unless the parent company merges in future.

RedBull appear to be courting VAG in some fashion but with this 3 year Honda alliance not sure the intent. So Honda and all this going away stuff is a lie. They are not leaving. What a joke.

RedBull appear to be 'hedging' their intent to be a builder. Extend unofficially Honda and hope some group from VAG arrives?? Games of F1 lol

[Hotrodz]

Originally Posted by DLSTR

RedBull appear to be courting VAG in some fashion but with this 3 year Honda alliance not sure the intent. So Honda and all this going away stuff is a lie. They are not leaving. What a joke.

RedBull appear to be 'hedging' their intent to be a builder. Extend unofficially Honda and hope some group from VAG arrives?? Games of F1 lol

Red Bull has talking about building their own engine since before they left Renault. Same song, second verse same as the first!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[ZCanadian]

Originally Posted by Hotrodz

Red Bull has talking about building their own engine since before they left Renault. Same song, second verse same as the first!

Except this time they have started building and staffing it, and the latest comment was:

https://racingnews365.com/horner-pro...trains-project

Horner provides update on Red Bull Powertrains project
(Sept 19, 2021)

Team Principal Christian Horner has revealed the construction of the new Red Bull Powertrains engine development facility at its Milton Keynes factory is "on target".

Red Bull will take on the running of Honda's power units next year as an engine freeze is introduced to Formula 1.

However, Honda will continue to supply Red Bull's Formula 1 engines from its base in Sakura in 2022 before a full handover to Red Bull in 2023.

"The Red Bull Powertrains project is gathering pace with every week," said Horner. "The construction is on target and it's great to see the building really taking shape.

"All the roofing is going on and the dyno will start arriving next month. It's really starting to come together and the effort going into it is impressive.

"We're attracting some great talent and we also have a strong youth policy to bring in some graduates and students into the programme."

Since the formation of Red Bull Powertrains, Red Bull have signed multiple Mercedes engineers for their growing operation.

Horner says the new project will also give an opportunity to younger engineers, with Helmut Marko announcing there will be 300-500 people who are part of Red Bull Powertrains.

"We want to give youth a chance and are looking for candidates who think differently and come from all spectrums and backgrounds," added Horner.

"We'll have a number of scholarships and apprenticeships. It really is a great opportunity and seeing the appeal of this project, with the calibre of individuals we're attracting, is so exciting."

Yes, it is coming out of Horner's mouth, and I washed my hands after cutting and pasting that BS. But I think that there is more to it this time. And with the cost cap screws tightening, and development costs of the engine already behind them, this might make more sense than it has in past years. Certainly, the Renault engine was a huge letdown in 2019. I don't think that they had both cars finish more than three races in a row that season. With two teams to shop for, neither MB nor Ferrari could supply the Red Bull organization without chopping one of their current customer teams. So, what else can they do now but go out on their own and plead with Honda to help them out until they are up to speed.

[Hotrodz]

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

Except this time they have started building and staffing it, and the latest comment was:

https://racingnews365.com/horner-pro...trains-project

Horner provides update on Red Bull Powertrains project
(Sept 19, 2021)

Team Principal Christian Horner has revealed the construction of the new Red Bull Powertrains engine development facility at its Milton Keynes factory is "on target".

Red Bull will take on the running of Honda's power units next year as an engine freeze is introduced to Formula 1.

However, Honda will continue to supply Red Bull's Formula 1 engines from its base in Sakura in 2022 before a full handover to Red Bull in 2023.

"The Red Bull Powertrains project is gathering pace with every week," said Horner. "The construction is on target and it's great to see the building really taking shape.

"All the roofing is going on and the dyno will start arriving next month. It's really starting to come together and the effort going into it is impressive.

"We're attracting some great talent and we also have a strong youth policy to bring in some graduates and students into the programme."

Since the formation of Red Bull Powertrains, Red Bull have signed multiple Mercedes engineers for their growing operation.

Horner says the new project will also give an opportunity to younger engineers, with Helmut Marko announcing there will be 300-500 people who are part of Red Bull Powertrains.

"We want to give youth a chance and are looking for candidates who think differently and come from all spectrums and backgrounds," added Horner.

"We'll have a number of scholarships and apprenticeships. It really is a great opportunity and seeing the appeal of this project, with the calibre of individuals we're attracting, is so exciting."

Yes, it is coming out of Horner's mouth, and I washed my hands after cutting and pasting that BS. But I think that there is more to it this time. And with the cost cap screws tightening, and development costs of the engine already behind them, this might make more sense than it has in past years. Certainly, the Renault engine was a huge letdown in 2019. I don't think that they had both cars finish more than three races in a row that season. With two teams to shop for, neither MB nor Ferrari could supply the Red Bull organization without chopping one of their current customer teams. So, what else can they do now but go out on their own and plead with Honda to help them out until they are up to speed.

LMAO, I agree. I had to roll my eyes when the said they have hire engineers from MB. That may be true but I sure they have not worked for MB for more than three years or so because of disclosed clauses on proprietary information. They are going to need a lot of help from Honda for more than two or three years to complete with the other three engine manufacturers. MB is now supplying motors to three other teams and they all are getting more competitive!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

[DLSTR]

https://www.bbc.com/sport/formula1/58918353

Chinese Grand Prix: Shanghai race expected to be dropped from 2022 F1 calendar

The Chinese Grand Prix is expected to be dropped from the 2022 Formula 1 calendar when next year's schedule is published on Friday.

The Shanghai race has not been held since the coronavirus pandemic began and restrictions surrounding Covid in China mean holding it is impossible.

It will be replaced by the Emilia Romagna GP at Imola on 24 April.

F1 is set to publish a record 23-race calendar with all the other established events absent this season reinstated.

[ZCanadian]

Guess it's already time for the 2022 thread.

No expectation - here is the calendar as it stands, with 4 contracts remaining to be signed... and no China.

[DLSTR]

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

Guess it's already time for the 2022 thread.

No expectation - here is the calendar as it stands, with 4 contracts remaining to be signed... and no China.

2022 Provisional F1 calendar
Date Grand Prix Circuit

20 March Bahrain Bahrain Sakhir

27 March Saudi Arabia Saudi Arabia Jeddah

10 April Australia Australia Melbourne

24 April Emilia Romagna Italy Imola

8 May Miami United States Miami

22 May Spain Spain Barcelona

29 May Monaco Monaco Monte Carlo

12 June Azerbaijan Azerbaijan Baku

19 June Canada Canada Montreal

3 July Great Britain United Kingdom Silverstone

10 July Austria Austria Spielberg

24 July France France Le Castellet

31 July Hungary Hungary Budapest

28 August Belgium Belgium Spa-Francorchamps

4 September Netherlands Netherlands Zandvoort

11 September Italy Italy Monza

25 September Russia Russian Federation Sochi

2 October Singapore Singapore Marina Bay

9 October Japan Japan Suzuka

23 October USA United States Austin

30 October Mexico Mexico Mexico City

13 November Brazil Brazil Sao Paulo

20 November Abu Dhabi United Arab Emirates Yas Marina

[DLSTR]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...flags/6697216/

F1 drivers welcome plan to delete lap times set under double yellow flags
By: Adam Cooper
Oct 21, 2021, 3:11 PM
Formula 1 drivers have welcomed the FIA’s plan to delete any lap times achieved by cars that pass through a double waved yellow zone in practice and in qualifying.

As previously reported the idea of deleting times emerged in Turkey after Fernando Alonso controversially escaped sanction following a post-qualifying investigation of a yellow flag offence.

After informal discussions between teams and race director Michael Masi on the morning of the race in Istanbul, the subject was debated further in a sporting advisory group meeting last week, when all teams agreed that it would be a good solution.

Masi has now formally confirmed that the system, similar to that for track limits offences, will be used from this weekend’s US GP.

His race director’s notes for the Austin weekend read: “Any driver passing through a double waved yellow marshalling sector must reduce speed significantly and be prepared to change direction or stop.

“In order for the stewards to be satisfied that any such driver has complied with these requirements it must be clear that he has not attempted to set a meaningful lap time. For practical purposes any driver in a double yellow sector will have that lap time deleted."

A section reading “this means the driver should abandon the lap (this does not necessarily mean he has to pit as the track could well be clear the following lap)” has been removed.

Drivers agree that the new initiative is a positive one.

[DLSTR]

Austin bumps set to "complicate" USA F1 weekend, says Gasly
By:
Jonathan Noble
Oct 19, 2021, 5:24 AM
Formula 1 drivers should brace themselves for a "complicated"' weekend at the United States Grand Prix, with bumps at the Circuit of the Americas forcing setup compromises, reckons Pierre Gasly.
[
Bumps at the Austin venue have been an ever-present during F1's tenure there, with instability of the land on which the circuit is built leading to an uneven surface.

While work has been regularly done on the track to try to improve the situation, the COTA bumps were a major talking point at the recent MotoGP race there as riders complained about them.

A request has been put in for a track resurfacing of the worst affected areas from Turns 2 to 10 for 2022 prior to MotoGP returning there.

In the wake of the MotoGP issues, F1 race director Michael Masi has been in contact with the circuit and has asked for some work to be done on grinding down the worst of the bumps.

But with the problem unlikely to be eradicated completely, Gasly thinks that the Austin weekend could be an especially tricky one, especially as the bumps were already quite bad when F1 last visited in 2019.

"I think it could be quite complicated this weekend," said the Frenchman.

"Having watched MotoGP a few weeks back, the bumps which were already pretty bad last time we raced there, seem even more severe now.

"It will require some sort of compromise on setup, but we won't really know until we get there.

"I'm not particularly worried about it, because our car is working well everywhere at the moment and we just have to avoid any problems waiting to ambush us, so that we can continue to close in on Alpine in the championship."
A scenic view of the circuit


COTA was recently visited on behalf of the FIA by experienced US racing official Tony Cotman, who has overseen the design of several IndyCar circuits.


Masi said that work was set to be done on grinding down the bumps to make things better for F1's visit.

"What we have actually done is that since the 2019 F1 event a large part of the circuit was resurfaced to counter some of the issues that we saw in 2019," explained Masi.

"The areas that were raised by the bikes are different areas to those that were resurfaced.

"And Tony Cotman, who's one of the FIA platinum circuit inspectors, has been out to Austin already during the week, and done a report.

"And the circuit doing some changes for us to sort of address some of the concerns.

"They'll grind some bumps and so forth. But we've got some time to do it. So they'll do what they can within the timeframe."

[DLSTR]

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/f1...users/6688980/

F1 2022 innovations less obvious than double diffusers
By: Jonathan Noble
Oct 19, 2021, 10:35 AM
Formula 1's most clever ideas for the new 2022 regulations will be far less obvious than the famous double diffusers, reckons McLaren technical chief James Key.
the-2022-formula-1-car-launch-.jpg

With teams having pretty much switched off development of their current challengers, factories are now almost entirely focused on making sure they hit the ground running with the new rules era next year.

Amid such a major regulations overhaul, teams will be looking to try to exploit any potential grey areas and unlock the kind of performance advantage that Brawn GP had in 2009 when it led the way with double diffusers.

However, F1 chiefs have worked extra hard to make the 2022 rule framework much more watertight when it comes to loopholes, with teams unable to innovate in many areas that they could previously.

And for Key, while that means there won't be any headline-grabbing tricks that will be obvious, that does not mean there are not a lot of smaller concepts that can still be rolled out.

"I think there's a lot of subtleties in there to be exploited," he explained. "And that's going to be the journey I think in 2022.

"You're not going to see double diffusers and that sort of huge kind of innovation with these regs. They are too restrictive for that.

"But there'll be other clever ideas and ways of approaching things which we'll begin to spot as these cars get released. So I think there's probably less traps there."

One of F1 owner Liberty Media's ambitions with its new era of grand prix racing is to level up the playing field, and offer hope for midfield teams to gun for the occasional win.

Key reckons that some elements of the new rules, like the weighted aero development regulations that hand more wind tunnel and CFD time to the slowest teams, could prove important in helping those further back.

"It's really difficult to say where it's going to play out," said Key. "When you've got new regs like this, the most terrifying part of the year is that first qualifying session where everyone actually shows how quick they are.

"I guess we're not going to know until qualifying in Bahrain, ultimately, next year, exactly where people appear to stand. And even that can throw you a few oddballs at times.

"But I think there's several advantages for being further back in the championship, with the CFD and wind tunnel benefit that you get from that, which is really important for a 2022 car.

"It was great to finish third last year, but it did have a minor effect on how much development we can do with our tools compared, to an eighth, ninth or 10th position team. So they've definitely got a little advantage there."

the-2022-formula-1-car-launch--1.jpg
The 2022 Formula 1 car launch event on the Silverstone grid. Rear detail

Photo by: Mark Sutton / Motorsport Images

But Key still has faith that the quality of the staff at the top outfits will be enough to keep them ahead when the 2022 cars hit the track.

"The infrastructures, the legacy, the methods, knowledge and culture that you have in a winning team does give a little bit of an advantage," he explained.

"You've got that kind of belief and confidence, you've got the tools that you believe in, and are tapped into those tools.

"I think some of the legacy of what larger teams have, even though they have to cut their budgets, all the investment that has gone on before and all the research that's allowed them to do well, will still give a bit of a buffer and a bit of an advantage.

"So I suspect the pecking order will probably be reasonably similar. But hopefully it will be closer.

"I suspect it'll be a bit spread out to begin with because I'm sure everyone is still kind of immature with their knowledge of these cars when they get launched.

"But hopefully, as time goes on, and with a slightly more restrictive regs, it will draw things closer, and we'll see how that pecking order drops out."