What do the new CAFE standards mean for the Z?

carguyg35

How CAFE Ratings Work - Auto - FOXNews.com

That is a good read on CAFE standards. I think nissan will be fine meeting the goal. Some of the others further down the list have some things to worry about. Nissan is already at 32.2. They will just improve their small car offering and more people will buy them. Plus gas is bound to be higher in a few years and that will help them sell more fuel efficient cars too.

2bits

Exactly, people need to resist getting worked up into a lather and jumping to unfounded conclusions (you know who you are). Current CAFE standards didn't eliminate cars like the Viper, Z06, GT-R, etc, so why the hell would we assume this means death to the Z?

FlashBazbo

You forget basic history (or maybe you're too young to have lived it). When current CAFE standards were first introduced, they DID eliminate cars like the Viper, Z06, GT-R, etc. No legal high performance car survived in the U.S. They killed Challenger, Barracuda, Z-28, Mustang (the horrid Mustang II was a CAFE special), Road Runner, GTO, Marauder, Cougar -- those very few performance cars that survived did so only by losing the performance. Raising the CAFE took us through a dark automotive age and it took over twenty years for technology to catch up and give us performance cars on the same level as we had before. During those dark years from the mid-70's, a 200-hp Corvette was considered a BIG deal just two years after they offered several Vette engines of over 400 hp.

It is utterly unrealistic to think moving to a 39 mpg CAFE won't have a radical impact on the offerings of the industry. Just within the last six months, the CAFE zealots at EPA and NHTSA have published documents saying that a 36 mpg standard was technologically infeasible by 2016. If those in government who want it most think it won't work . . . .

ChrisSlicks

It's scare tactics. When they realize that the majority can't comply they will push the date back. I'm sure the auto manufacturers (except Toyota) have already dispatched their lobbyists to Washington.

fly yellow

I wish that were the case, but two of the three domestic automakers are owned or at least controlled by the government. I don't think foreign manufacturers have much of a lobbying precense here in Washington, and like you said, Toyota, the #1 import in this country has already made this their business model. Honda is well on their way to following the same model. The European cars in this country fill a luxury market and they will just pay the fines and price their vehicles accordingly. Their clients can afford it.

I strongly believe we will see the death of cars like the Z, the Mustang GT, the Camaro SS (we harly knew ya), and maybe even the Corvette. GM has already done away with their high performance vehicle operations department. They said they will still produce the cars that are out there, but have no plans to develop new ones.

It is going to be an expensive proposition for car companies to develop these cars. I don't see them spending much to develop better sports cars that will only bring down their overall CAFE rating.

Enjoy these cars while you still can. I don't know how many years it will be before this country comes back to it's senses.

Rainsford

Remember, this new change is only thanks to a recent SCOTUS ruling. Should the population within the next few years see a backlash from this federal overstepping (which, as history has shown us, they most likely will) then you'll see alot of these restrictions go away. Sure, these standards will still cripple industry and sales in states like NY and California, but it will do far less harm, especially when people see how many jobs this move will cost.

wstar

I really think all-electric cars are the future, or 'hybrids' in the sense of cars that are designed as full electrics, but have a tiny fixed-rpm gasoline engine hooked up to a generator to provide a range boost over the capacity of the battery packs alone. They're way more efficient in terms of energy production and utilization, and we already have the grid to distribute the juice (and gas stations for the long-range generators).

Won't get in the way of performance either. A good all-electric performance car can knock the socks off a gas car. You get 4 electric motors (one in each wheel)... AWD with full torque at any speed (starting at zero), engine braking that pretty much obviates the need for traditional brakes, and capable of much more advance traction and stability control with an advanced cpu controlling the 4 motor controllers (imagine a computer that could choose the engine torque delivered to each individual wheel precisely, on top of what can be done with TCS/launch-control systems today). Oh and did I mention no gearing necessary at all? No driveline losses, no clutch, no transmission, no differential, etc.

The only thing holding back that vision of the future, at this point, is the need for more advanced batteries and/or supercapacitors to be developed, and for the cost of those components to drop drastically. It will happen, it's just a question of when.

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2bits

I haven't forgotten history. We've had CAFE standards increase over the past 35 years. You choose to focus on the initial shock in the 70's, then extrapolate out that horror to today and well beyond. You ignore the fact that today WE DO HAVE the cars I cited despite the highest CAFE standards ever. You've just flat out lost your perspective.

My original point remains. Yes, things will advance and change as they always have. The Z will ever evolve, and Nissan will pump up mileage on the commodity models to reach the required average. Big deal. Can we stop the hyperbole now?

ChrisSlicks

Agreed. Nissan sells 1 million cars a year (well they used to) in which to make their average. They can afford to have a few cars under the average if they are low volume. The high volume economy cars will bring the average up.

jakoye

Except... CAFE standards haven't risen for passenger cars since 1990, when they reached their present level of 27.5.

Having that raised to 39 mpg in 7 years... that's pretty significant when it hasn't risen in nearly 20 years.

I'd say being worried that a 40% increase in the CAFE standards in the next 7 years might adversely affect the Z is not hyperbole at all.

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2bits

Your first point is good, but it doesn't change mine either. Lol, how important is the Z to reaching that 39 mpg avg considering it's production #'s and % volume for Nissan? The commodity models will drive the mpg average as they always have.

Your second point is not so good. Marquee models with their accompanying lower mpg are a reality for most manufactures because they don't sell that many of them. If Nissan sold 50k+ Z's, you'd be right. But they don't. Hyperbole and hysteria in this thread? Yes.

jakoye

We will agree to disagree then.

I think the abrupt increases in the MPG standards *will* affect the Z's design. Sure, it's not a huge seller or a huge percentage of Nissan's US sales, but having a car that is currently 16 or 17 MPG under the standard that will be law in 7 short years will call for some fairly significant engineering.

And besides, with a 39 mpg standard, Nissan is gonna have to sell a good number of cars that EXCEED that level in order to make up for the Z and all its other low MPG cars. How many Nissan models get more than 39 mpg? I can't think of any.

The Z may be especially vulnerable simply because Nissan is a smaller car company that may not have the capital to so radically re-engineer their product line. The easiest way for them to meet the standards will be to eliminate low-mileage cars like the Z from their lineup entirely.

It may be pessimistic, but this is truly the way I see it going down.

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MikeGTO

CAFE was first passed in 1975 and didnt actually kick in until 1978.
Corporate Average Fuel Economy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

You can't blame it (directly) for the death of any of the classic muscle/sport cars you mentioned. It just piled some extra dirt on top of their corpses.

What killed the musclecars was a combination of higher gas prices, high insurance, the changeover to unleaded gas, and the increasing amount of emission controls. But none of those are CAFE.