The Z's future

Spikuh · 12-01-2011, 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b1adesofcha0s

*goes to wikipedia to look up supercapacitors*

Did the same. Didn't understand much of it outside of there are pros and cons.

Red__Zed · 12-01-2011, 09:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

Did the same. Didn't understand much of it outside of there are pros and cons.

They will make KERS systems much more efficient due to the ability to charge nearly instantly (limited by RC time constant, but relative to a battery, almost instant). The ability to pull so much more energy from KERS will dramatically increase the range, which has always been a sore spot for EVs. The instant charging will also alleviate the "plug in overnight" problem....caps are also MUCH less volatile than a battery.

The problem we now run into is the distribution system...we don't currently have the infrastructure to bring power to all these cars....

m4a1mustang · 12-01-2011, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

They will make KERS systems much more efficient due to the ability to charge nearly instantly (limited by RC time constant, but relative to a battery, almost instant). The ability to pull so much more energy from KERS will dramatically increase the range, which has always been a sore spot for EVs. The instant charging will also alleviate the "plug in overnight" problem....caps are also MUCH less volatile than a battery.

The problem we now run into is the distribution system...we don't currently have the infrastructure to bring power to all these cars....

Pfft. Greenie Prius drivers will tell you that the coal fired electric plants are far better on the environment than a ultra low emissions gas powered Civic/Corolla/Sentra/5.0h/etc.

edub370 · 12-01-2011, 09:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Pfft. Greenie Prius drivers will tell you that the coal fired electric plants are far better on the environment than a ultra low emissions gas powered Civic/Corolla/Sentra/5.0h/etc.

THIS

b1adesofcha0s · 12-01-2011, 09:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Pfft. Greenie Prius drivers will tell you that the coal fired electric plants are far better on the environment than a ultra low emissions gas powered Civic/Corolla/Sentra/5.0h/etc.

Well obviously they're right, they drive a Prius!

Spikuh · 12-01-2011, 09:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Pfft. Greenie Prius drivers will tell you that the coal fired electric plants are far better on the environment than a ultra low emissions gas powered Civic/Corolla/Sentra/5.0h/etc.

But CLEAN coal sir, you forgot about the new and improved clean coal.

Part of me throws up evertime I see one of those commercials...

m4a1mustang · 12-01-2011, 09:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

But CLEAN coal sir, you forgot about the new and improved clean coal.

Part of me throws up evertime I see one of those commercials...

All we gotta do is chop the tops of mountains to get it!

Spikuh · 12-01-2011, 09:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

All we gotta do is chop the tops of mountains to get it!

Mt. Saint Helens before/after shot:

I don't know about you, but I feel progress was made here.

andre12031948 · 12-01-2011, 10:05 AM

To have enough electricity & have it cheap enough for mass EV/hybrid use, we need a nuke reactor outside every big city. For some reason, nuke power does not get much emphesis. This power source is almost endless, can be cheap, plenty of material for fuel out west, never killed a single person in U.S. ever, & by-product is clean steam. Why is it not our dominent source? I don't know.

Red__Zed · 12-01-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by andre12031948

To have enough electricity & have it cheap enough for mass EV/hybrid use, we need a nuke reactor outside every big city. For some reason, nuke power does not get much emphesis. This power source is almost endless, can be cheap, plenty of material for fuel out west, never killed a single person in U.S. ever, & by-product is clean steam. Why is it not our dominent source? I don't know.

It is heavily regulated, and with good reason.

Red__Zed · 12-01-2011, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Pfft. Greenie Prius drivers will tell you that the coal fired electric plants are far better on the environment than a ultra low emissions gas powered Civic/Corolla/Sentra/5.0h/etc.

It is easier to regulate on the plant level, to be fair.

I'm all about moving to more nuclear power, and it's not just because nuclear power plants buy a lot of the same electronics that are used in missile control

Honestly, while generation is a concern, the distribution network is definitely more of a weak point. There is a lot of untapped capacity in many plants, especially here (our local nuclear facility is nowhere near capacity, and easy to ramp up). I also believe (just personal opinion) that there is going to be more propagation of nuclear power facilities-- if nothing else (based on sales trends), there are a lot more places doing research to demonstrate safety.

A big worry is distribution. You've heard the BS lines about how people will be charging at night (off peak, etc). Realistically, every is going to plug in their car when they get home around 6-- well within heavy use hours. Even if we try to limit peak charging, people will need to do mid-day charging for a variety of reasons (road trip, lots of errands, trucks/deliveries).

This chart shows pretty clearly how much is being used for transport...

To put it simply, the distribution system simply cannot support the additional strain of EVs, and beefing it up is the real area holding back development. The lead times on some of the transformers needed to do this run in the order of YEARS-- we're talking pressed layers of metal the size of an SUV.

The VRs included on most EVs also represent an active load, which is potentially problematic. In standard operation, there is no issue, but certain failure modes could cause substantial issues for the grid-- you potentially wind up dealing with funky harmoncs and all that jazz, and you* affect your power factor. You'll hear a lot of talk about using parked cars to stabilize the grid, but it is going to be really different to implement properly since the cars can switch into and out of the grid whenever they want. I think the freedom that comes with the "grab it and go" aspect of your own car is something people won't give up, and that makes life really tough for power engineers.

Basically, what needs to happen to make the switch is the government needs to decide the switch is being made, and then subsidize the move for both the energy industry, as well as the automakers (or regulate the crap out of them to force their hand). Given the current economic situation, neither is really likely right now.

m4a1mustang · 12-01-2011, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

It is easier to regulate on the plant level, to be fair.

I'm all about moving to more nuclear power, and it's not just because nuclear power plants buy a lot of the same electronics that are used in missile control

Honestly, while generation is a concern, the distribution network is definitely more of a weak point. There is a lot of untapped capacity in many plants, especially here (our local nuclear facility is nowhere near capacity, and easy to ramp up). I also believe (just personal opinion) that there is going to be more propagation of nuclear power facilities-- if nothing else (based on sales trends), there are a lot more places doing research to demonstrate safety.

A big worry is distribution. You've heard the BS lines about how people will be charging at night (off peak, etc). Realistically, every is going to plug in their car when they get home around 6-- well within heavy use hours. Even if we try to limit peak charging, people will need to do mid-day charging for a variety of reasons (road trip, lots of errands, trucks/deliveries).

This chart shows pretty clearly how much is being used for transport...

To put it simply, the distribution system simply cannot support the additional strain of EVs, and beefing it up is the real area holding back development. The lead times on some of the transformers needed to do this run in the order of YEARS-- we're talking pressed layers of metal the size of an SUV.

The VRs included on most EVs also represent an active load, which is potentially problematic. In standard operation, there is no issue, but certain failure modes could cause substantial issues for the grid-- you potentially wind up dealing with funky harmoncs and all that jazz, and you* affect your power factor. You'll hear a lot of talk about using parked cars to stabilize the grid, but it is going to be really different to implement properly since the cars can switch into and out of the grid whenever they want. I think the freedom that comes with the "grab it and go" aspect of your own car is something people won't give up, and that makes life really tough for power engineers.

Basically, what needs to happen to make the switch is the government needs to decide the switch is being made, and then subsidize the move for both the energy industry, as well as the automakers (or regulate the crap out of them to force their hand). Given the current economic situation, neither is really likely right now.

True

Spikuh · 12-01-2011, 10:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Basically, what needs to happen to make the switch is the government needs to decide the switch is being made, and then subsidize the move for both the energy industry, as well as the automakers (or regulate the crap out of them to force their hand). Given the current economic situation, neither is really likely right now.

I feel kind of the opposite in this regard. I would say in theory, it is easier to make transitions like this when times are good and the economy is just rolling along but I would also say that during these times, people do not want change since that change can potientially stop the wheels and therefore in actuality, it is harder to make these fundamental changes when times are good.

I think this because I cannot come up with an instance where our government has ever been foreward thinking with regards to the well being of the citizens. It seems to always be reactionary to what has happened in the immediate past. Industry is a little different. They do definitely look to the future, but oftentimes it is driven by the idea of profits and not necessarily for the greater good of society.

I think the best times to make these fundamental shifts are when times are tough. People seem more willing to make changes and take risks when they down if for no other reason, they have nothing to lose and are desperate to get back on their feet.

Its kind of counter-intuitive I guess, but thats how my brain works sometimes. Hopefully this makes sense.

b1adesofcha0s · 12-01-2011, 10:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Longest post ever from an iPhone? It probably doesnt make much sense

Actually it makes a lot of sense and I completely agree with you.

Quote:

Originally Posted by dAvenue

When Homer Simpson is at the helm, nuclear power seems like an even worse idea.

What are you talking about? Homer Simpson has Sector 7G on lockdown

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

I feel kind of the opposite in this regard. I would say in theory, it is easier to make transitions like this when times are good and the economy is just rolling along but I would also say that during these times, people do not want change since that change can potientially stop the wheels and therefore in actuality, it is harder to make these fundamental changes when times are good.

I think this because I cannot come up with an instance where our government has ever been foreward thinking with regards to the well being of the citizens. It seems to always be reactionary to what has happened in the immediate past. Industry is a little different. They do definitely look to the future, but oftentimes it is driven by the idea of profits and not necessarily for the greater good of society.

I think the best times to make these fundamental shifts are when times are tough. People seem more willing to make changes and take risks when they down if for no other reason, they have nothing to lose and are desperate to get back on their feet.

Its kind of counter-intuitive I guess, but thats how my brain works sometimes. Hopefully this makes sense.

And it would create a bunch of new job opportunities, but why would we want that?

Red__Zed · 12-01-2011, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spikuh

I feel kind of the opposite in this regard. I would say in theory, it is easier to make transitions like this when times are good and the economy is just rolling along but I would also say that during these times, people do not want change since that change can potientially stop the wheels and therefore in actuality, it is harder to make these fundamental changes when times are good.

I think this because I cannot come up with an instance where our government has ever been foreward thinking with regards to the well being of the citizens. It seems to always be reactionary to what has happened in the immediate past. Industry is a little different. They do definitely look to the future, but oftentimes it is driven by the idea of profits and not necessarily for the greater good of society.

I think the best times to make these fundamental shifts are when times are tough. People seem more willing to make changes and take risks when they down if for no other reason, they have nothing to lose and are desperate to get back on their feet.

Its kind of counter-intuitive I guess, but thats how my brain works sometimes. Hopefully this makes sense.

In theory, I agree. However, since I make my living convincing the government to spend money, I have to disagree in practice.

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12-01-2011, 10:05 AM	#9 (permalink)
andre12031948 Banned Join Date: Feb 2011 Location: monticello new york 127 Posts: 1,095 Drives: 08 350z black 6m/t Rep Power: 0	To have enough electricity & have it cheap enough for mass EV/hybrid use, we need a nuke reactor outside every big city. For some reason, nuke power does not get much emphesis. This power source is almost endless, can be cheap, plenty of material for fuel out west, never killed a single person in U.S. ever, & by-product is clean steam. Why is it not our dominent source? I don't know.