Follow-up analysis to Car & Driver crashing Nismo 370Z at VIR

370Zsteve · 05-02-2010, 02:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

I'll see what I can do to bump it up the priority list for R&D. Now would be the best time though as the car is on the rack...I'll see what I can do this coming week.

Send it to Car & Driver

never mind Road & track will get pissed.

370Zsteve · 05-02-2010, 02:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

I think alot of folks here need to get real and finally come to the long and overdue undertanding with the fact that a "sports car" and a "race car" are entirely two different types of vehicles.

In addition folks here need to finally come to the understanding that the act of buying any car doesn't include making the car dealer or the manufacturer your personal indentured servant who will pay for everything to convert the car into something you think it should be meant to be.

I think what is comes down to is, it looks a bit like a 911, so in our subconscious minds, it should perform like one - for 1/3 the price of course.

370Zsteve · 05-02-2010, 02:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by semtex

And the only reason I'm flagging this as an issue is because it contradicts Nissan's marketing. Really, it's Nissan's (Nismo) marketing that I have a beef with, not the car itself.

x2

MightyBobo · 05-02-2010, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

I think what is comes down to is, it looks a bit like a 911, so in our subconscious minds, it should perform like one - for 1/3 the price of course.

Bam. This dude just hit it on the ******* head I think lol.

kannibul · 05-02-2010, 04:42 PM

I doubt Nissan's marketing intent is to promot the Nismo as being track-ready...maybe track oriented...but not track-ready.

I can't imagine the idea of taking a stock nismo and hitting a track with it, and expect it to hold up.

Brakes, diff cooler, oil cooler, maybe a transcooler - at the very least.

One day I'll track my Z, but, I certainly won't be pushing the limits of the car, as my limits are much more conservative - I don't want to risk out out of pocket potentials...

I would however, like to go fast and take some hard corners in a legal environment...as long as there is minimal risk if I lose it and end up "4x4ing" my Z.

ZKindaGuy · 05-02-2010, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

I doubt Nissan's marketing intent is to promot the Nismo as being track-ready...maybe track oriented...but not track-ready.

I can't imagine the idea of taking a stock nismo and hitting a track with it, and expect it to hold up.

Brakes, diff cooler, oil cooler, maybe a transcooler - at the very least.

One day I'll track my Z, but, I certainly won't be pushing the limits of the car, as my limits are much more conservative - I don't want to risk out out of pocket potentials...

I would however, like to go fast and take some hard corners in a legal environment...as long as there is minimal risk if I lose it and end up "4x4ing" my Z.

Perfectly said there Mr. K!! "track-oriented" FTW!!!!

Mike · 05-02-2010, 07:15 PM

the only car on the market that is track ready right out of the box is the Porsche GT3, everything else needs something to make it ready.

The BlueMax · 05-02-2010, 08:23 PM

I've tracked my 97WS6 before with some friends with other F-bodies and Vettes, before we go we prep with Dot5 brake fluid and high temp pads. You will go through a set of pads over the weekend and your tires will be pretty much gone depending on how much and how hard your driving. But its so much involved then just drag racing. BTW one magazine just posted a brake job done at the dealership for their longterm GTR. At 26,000 miles the rotors, pads, fluid and labor came to 7,400 dollars, I wouldn't be able to except or absorb that cost.

ChrisSlicks · 05-02-2010, 08:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird

Josh at Stillen: I really need the new brake vents to be compatible with your new fascia. The new fascia and NISMO rear and Siebon hood go on this week.pp

You're starting to get a reputation around these parts - for having the hottest Z in the area.

kannibul · 05-02-2010, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemax

At 26,000 miles the rotors, pads, fluid and labor came to 7,400 dollars, I wouldn't be able to except or absorb that cost.

No way in hell would I pay that much.

SoCal 370Z · 05-03-2010, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

Yea but the problem is in order to justify their publishing of the magazine and possibly to point the finger away from themselves in terms of liability in light of the crash that occurred during the first test event, the author/editors wordsmith the story so that the testing and resulting data reads to sound as if its judgement applies as well to the overall safety, quality and driveability of the 370Z while driving under normal conditions.

There is in the way they chose to write this critique a very fine obscure line between truth and "yellow journalism" so they have backdoors to squirm through when necessary yet render an unjustified negative judgement upon the car and manufacturer.

And one has to consider this may be again another attempt to discredit foreign car makers in the court of American public opinion since the American car industry had to be bailed out. Whereas Toyota and Honda got fried by Congress and by the media, Nissan managed to escape the fire in the first time around.

I find it interesting the sole focus of the written review was only the braking system as if to vaguely lay down a veiled suggestion that somehow Nissan has the same quality problems as Toyota and Honda as recently identified and incessantly harped on by the media.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

I think alot of folks here need to get real and finally come to the long and overdue undertanding with the fact that a "sports car" and a "race car" are entirely two different types of vehicles.

In addition folks here need to finally come to the understanding that the act of buying any car doesn't include making the car dealer or the manufacturer your personal indentured servant who will pay for everything to convert the car into something you think it should be meant to be.

First off, I clearly understand the distinction between a race car and a sports car—as do most, if not all members here. To give you the benefit of the doubt my reference should have been included the full text to Nissan response regarding an oil cooler:

Quote:

"Nissan North America: The 370Z has an engine protection system that reduces peak engine speeds when the oil temperature exceeds recommended levels in order to protect against possible engine damage. Aggressive driving of the 370Z on a race track at sustained high engine speeds can cause increases in oil temperature and may activate this engine protection system. To avoid activation of this engine protection system and these reduced peak engine speeds, Nissan recommends an oil cooler be fitted to the 370Z before driving it on a race track. A Nissan Motorsports accessory oil cooler kit is available for customer purchase through authorized Nissan dealerships for race track use. The part number is 21300-SS370.

An oil cooler is not necessary for normal operation of the vehicle on public roads. The addition of an oil cooler would have raised the price of the car and potentially moved it out of the reach of some customers. Value has been a core principle of the Z car since the original 240Z and we choose to uphold this core principle by not adding additional costs that are unnecessary for normal use. For those individuals who choose to drive their vehicle on a race track, the oil cooler is available as an aftersales item.

The oil cooler is a Nissan Motorsports item and as such is sold without warranty, express or implied, unless expressly prohibited by law in which case the warranty provided is the minimum required by law. The installation of the Nissan Motorsports oil cooler does not, by itself, “void” the vehicle warranty. However any damage caused by the installation or use of this part is expressly excluded under the terms of the Nissan New Vehicle Limited warranty."

My inference was to the line above that I have intentionally made bold (not Nissan) on how Nissan is willing to sell you a Nissan branded product, but supply no warranty (even if installed by a Nissan dealership) as said part is deemed above normal operation. The Car and Driver test did not single out Nissan as Mazda, and Subaru was in attendance too. Car and Driver's suspicion is that Nissan has not designed the cooling aspect of the front brakes well. (Hmmmm…where have I heard anything about cooling regarding the 370Z before…let me think.)

In my response to your post where do I state that I am indenturing Nissan or any Nissan dealership to pay for anything? However, I am at a lost to understand how Nissan can authorize full engine swaps—under warranty—as has been done for forum members, yet Nissan has no faith in neither their dealerships' ability to install an oil cooler nor Nissan's oil cooler design that they sell without providing a warranty? I have had far too many vehicles with the option of additional cooling supplied through the dealership, with factory products, and have not encountered such nonsense until the 370Z. If you follow any of the Japanese blogs you find they mention the 370Z (Z34) propensity to get too hot to quickly. I believe that the press cars first driven on US shores were supplied with an HKS kit (that is actually a two part/two oil cooler kit) utilizing the part that is tucked away at the front of the US driver's side wheel.

Owners' motivation for an oil cooler may not even be related to driving the car enthusiastically, racing, etc, but for the piece-of-mind regarding additional oil and additional oil cooling. Though many of us are more than experienced wrenchers and very capable of installing an aftermarket oil cooler there are reasons that we might choose not to: Factory warranty, time, and circumstance. Some owners are not up to the task of installing an oil cooler (and they admit it). For owners' wanting this product, and willing to pay for this product, it beyond any rational reason that Nissan does not demonstrate even basic faith in their factory branded accessory that cannot, and should not be solely designated as a track/race item; because someone chooses to install an oil cooler does not mean that they will do either. The added benefits to engine and oil life, are nothing more than common sense, if not engineering sense.

Will it surprise me if others learn that the front brakes have insufficient cooling? Not one bit. Will Nissan answer the call? I believe that Nissan would rather obsolete a complete model without anteing-up versus admitting to any of their mistakes. Hence, Nissan's "value-laden" sales pitch approach. Look, we all the know the Z is a value. We get it. Nissan simply needs to pull their head out of their a$$ about issues and at least allow owners' to address the issues—with Nissan parts and warranty—even if it means owners' coming out of pocket.

Original Car and Driver article:The Lightning Lap, 2009 - Feature

ZKindaGuy, are you affiliated or do you work for Nissan?

xfrgtr · 05-03-2010, 04:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

I think alot of folks here need to get real and finally come to the long and overdue undertanding with the fact that a "sports car" and a "race car" are entirely two different types of vehicles.

In addition folks here need to finally come to the understanding that the act of buying any car doesn't include making the car dealer or the manufacturer your personal indentured servant who will pay for everything to convert the car into something you think it should be meant to be.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul: I doubt Nissan's marketing intent is to promot the Nismo as being track-ready...maybe track oriented...but not track-ready.

I can't imagine the idea of taking a stock nismo and hitting a track with it, and expect it to hold up.

Brakes, diff cooler, oil cooler, maybe a transcooler - at the very least.

One day I'll track my Z, but, I certainly won't be pushing the limits of the car, as my limits are much more conservative - I don't want to risk out out of pocket potentials...

I would however, like to go fast and take some hard corners in a legal environment...as long as there is minimal risk if I lose it and end up "4x4ing" my Z.

UNKNOWN_370 · 05-03-2010, 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

I doubt Nissan's marketing intent is to promot the Nismo as being track-ready...maybe track oriented...but not track-ready.

I can't imagine the idea of taking a stock nismo and hitting a track with it, and expect it to hold up.

Brakes, diff cooler, oil cooler, maybe a transcooler - at the very least.

One day I'll track my Z, but, I certainly won't be pushing the limits of the car, as my limits are much more conservative - I don't want to risk out out of pocket potentials...

I would however, like to go fast and take some hard corners in a legal environment...as long as there is minimal risk if I lose it and end up "4x4ing" my Z.

One thing though... when you walk into a nissan dealership looking at Z's dealers love talking about the nismo, they Love stressing its track readiness. So I would have to agree that nissan is misleading... then again so is everyone else in the auto industry. I mean. They call the GTi a sports car? Lol. The 370z is a sports car but it needs personal touches to cater to driving needs. Its not like a porsche cayman S that is instantly track ready. Still and all, the Z is one of the coolest cars under 40k.
The brake issue... well it was an issue. We would like to believe it was a sh1tty driver or the guy didn't know what he was doing but, keeping it real. It makes sense that a $3,000 sport package that 2k of it are rims will have a BBK that would need personal upgrades to make it a true race brake system. New brake lines, rotors pads and fluid would probably increase performance significantly.
But I do have to agree that nissan amps themselves up. Then a few months later, you find out its really not as much as what it is, then you find yourself modding for improvements. Honestly this is a trait in all jap and asian cars and no one should be surprised. Still and all, looking past the hype. The asian auto market still gives more for your dollar than any other market. Weighing pro's and cons. I still think the Z is worthy.

rj45 · 05-03-2010, 07:27 AM

There's a difference between tracking a car for driver enjoyment and tracking for top performance. You can go out on the track in a Z, standard or Nismo, and drive it in a way you wish you could on the road. In this situation, I believe both models would survive just fine, and better than the average car. Hence, these 'track ready' marketing ads.

Then you have the guys who want to track their road cars like race cars, pushing hard and looking for every tenth, lap after lap. Road cars are not setup for this. Yeah, a GT3 or Scuderia is better suited for track use, but even they are compromise cars, not full fledged track cars.

That said, the Nismo Z probably should come standard with the (now optional) higher performance brake pads. The standard Z is fine with low dust/noise pads, IMO, and stops plenty well for normal/sporty road use.

ChrisSlicks · 05-03-2010, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

There's a difference between tracking a car for driver enjoyment and tracking for top performance. You can go out on the track in a Z, standard or Nismo, and drive it in a way you wish you could on the road. In this situation, I believe both models would survive just fine, and better than the average car. Hence, these 'track ready' marketing ads.

I disagree. There is a sinister problem with the brakes and I don't believe it will be an easy fix, it is downright dangerous when driven with passion (even on the street) for an extended period of time and this is above and beyond the overheating issue.

You wouldn't make 3 laps around a track in a stock Z even driving moderately conservatively without overheating. As you limp back to the pits you will be passed by a 4-door Honda Civic that will complete the 20 minute session.

The cooking oil temperatures don't bother me as this problem can be solved, however the brakes, even after doing every mod possible (replacement calipers, 2-piece rotors, high-temp fluid, venting) will continue to be a problem. Unfortunately, like Toyota, it will probably take someone dying as a result before they admit there is a problem with the ABS program.

05-02-2010, 07:15 PM	#52 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2186	the only car on the market that is track ready right out of the box is the Porsche GT3, everything else needs something to make it ready. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

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05-02-2010, 04:42 PM	#50 (permalink)
kannibul A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Jenks, OK Posts: 2,281 Drives: 370z Touring/Sport Rep Power: 267	I doubt Nissan's marketing intent is to promot the Nismo as being track-ready...maybe track oriented...but not track-ready. I can't imagine the idea of taking a stock nismo and hitting a track with it, and expect it to hold up. Brakes, diff cooler, oil cooler, maybe a transcooler - at the very least. One day I'll track my Z, but, I certainly won't be pushing the limits of the car, as my limits are much more conservative - I don't want to risk out out of pocket potentials... I would however, like to go fast and take some hard corners in a legal environment...as long as there is minimal risk if I lose it and end up "4x4ing" my Z.

05-02-2010, 08:23 PM	#53 (permalink)
The BlueMax Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Louisville Posts: 337 Drives: 09 370/97 T/A 01 ZRX Rep Power: 25	I've tracked my 97WS6 before with some friends with other F-bodies and Vettes, before we go we prep with Dot5 brake fluid and high temp pads. You will go through a set of pads over the weekend and your tires will be pretty much gone depending on how much and how hard your driving. But its so much involved then just drag racing. BTW one magazine just posted a brake job done at the dealership for their longterm GTR. At 26,000 miles the rotors, pads, fluid and labor came to 7,400 dollars, I wouldn't be able to except or absorb that cost.

05-03-2010, 07:27 AM	#59 (permalink)
rj45 Base Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: USA Posts: 60 Drives: 40th Anniversary Z Rep Power: 15	There's a difference between tracking a car for driver enjoyment and tracking for top performance. You can go out on the track in a Z, standard or Nismo, and drive it in a way you wish you could on the road. In this situation, I believe both models would survive just fine, and better than the average car. Hence, these 'track ready' marketing ads. Then you have the guys who want to track their road cars like race cars, pushing hard and looking for every tenth, lap after lap. Road cars are not setup for this. Yeah, a GT3 or Scuderia is better suited for track use, but even they are compromise cars, not full fledged track cars. That said, the Nismo Z probably should come standard with the (now optional) higher performance brake pads. The standard Z is fine with low dust/noise pads, IMO, and stops plenty well for normal/sporty road use.