Follow-up analysis to Car & Driver crashing Nismo 370Z at VIR

kannibul · 05-03-2010, 05:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

I can't disagree with anything you say, Kan. Yet even car & Driver were dazzled by Nissan's marketing hype and threw it onto a race track in stock form. And as far as I can see, no other cars in the test had a FAIL like the Z.

Which takes me back to the driver being the issue, which is backed up with the point that they noted brake fade issues in their later testing.

Either that, or something else happened which tossed the car off to the wall, other than just the brakes failing - entered too fast, catastrophic loss of traction, etc...

There's no reason that brakes would go from great to piss poor in the space of 1 turn.

Maybe the pads were already worn down and they just melted off the remaining brake material...

Mike · 05-02-2010, 07:15 PM

the only car on the market that is track ready right out of the box is the Porsche GT3, everything else needs something to make it ready.

The BlueMax · 05-02-2010, 08:23 PM

I've tracked my 97WS6 before with some friends with other F-bodies and Vettes, before we go we prep with Dot5 brake fluid and high temp pads. You will go through a set of pads over the weekend and your tires will be pretty much gone depending on how much and how hard your driving. But its so much involved then just drag racing. BTW one magazine just posted a brake job done at the dealership for their longterm GTR. At 26,000 miles the rotors, pads, fluid and labor came to 7,400 dollars, I wouldn't be able to except or absorb that cost.

kannibul · 05-02-2010, 11:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bluemax

At 26,000 miles the rotors, pads, fluid and labor came to 7,400 dollars, I wouldn't be able to except or absorb that cost.

No way in hell would I pay that much.

SoCal 370Z · 05-03-2010, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

Yea but the problem is in order to justify their publishing of the magazine and possibly to point the finger away from themselves in terms of liability in light of the crash that occurred during the first test event, the author/editors wordsmith the story so that the testing and resulting data reads to sound as if its judgement applies as well to the overall safety, quality and driveability of the 370Z while driving under normal conditions.

There is in the way they chose to write this critique a very fine obscure line between truth and "yellow journalism" so they have backdoors to squirm through when necessary yet render an unjustified negative judgement upon the car and manufacturer.

And one has to consider this may be again another attempt to discredit foreign car makers in the court of American public opinion since the American car industry had to be bailed out. Whereas Toyota and Honda got fried by Congress and by the media, Nissan managed to escape the fire in the first time around.

I find it interesting the sole focus of the written review was only the braking system as if to vaguely lay down a veiled suggestion that somehow Nissan has the same quality problems as Toyota and Honda as recently identified and incessantly harped on by the media.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZKindaGuy

I think alot of folks here need to get real and finally come to the long and overdue undertanding with the fact that a "sports car" and a "race car" are entirely two different types of vehicles.

In addition folks here need to finally come to the understanding that the act of buying any car doesn't include making the car dealer or the manufacturer your personal indentured servant who will pay for everything to convert the car into something you think it should be meant to be.

First off, I clearly understand the distinction between a race car and a sports car—as do most, if not all members here. To give you the benefit of the doubt my reference should have been included the full text to Nissan response regarding an oil cooler:

Quote:

"Nissan North America: The 370Z has an engine protection system that reduces peak engine speeds when the oil temperature exceeds recommended levels in order to protect against possible engine damage. Aggressive driving of the 370Z on a race track at sustained high engine speeds can cause increases in oil temperature and may activate this engine protection system. To avoid activation of this engine protection system and these reduced peak engine speeds, Nissan recommends an oil cooler be fitted to the 370Z before driving it on a race track. A Nissan Motorsports accessory oil cooler kit is available for customer purchase through authorized Nissan dealerships for race track use. The part number is 21300-SS370.

An oil cooler is not necessary for normal operation of the vehicle on public roads. The addition of an oil cooler would have raised the price of the car and potentially moved it out of the reach of some customers. Value has been a core principle of the Z car since the original 240Z and we choose to uphold this core principle by not adding additional costs that are unnecessary for normal use. For those individuals who choose to drive their vehicle on a race track, the oil cooler is available as an aftersales item.

The oil cooler is a Nissan Motorsports item and as such is sold without warranty, express or implied, unless expressly prohibited by law in which case the warranty provided is the minimum required by law. The installation of the Nissan Motorsports oil cooler does not, by itself, “void” the vehicle warranty. However any damage caused by the installation or use of this part is expressly excluded under the terms of the Nissan New Vehicle Limited warranty."

My inference was to the line above that I have intentionally made bold (not Nissan) on how Nissan is willing to sell you a Nissan branded product, but supply no warranty (even if installed by a Nissan dealership) as said part is deemed above normal operation. The Car and Driver test did not single out Nissan as Mazda, and Subaru was in attendance too. Car and Driver's suspicion is that Nissan has not designed the cooling aspect of the front brakes well. (Hmmmm…where have I heard anything about cooling regarding the 370Z before…let me think.)

In my response to your post where do I state that I am indenturing Nissan or any Nissan dealership to pay for anything? However, I am at a lost to understand how Nissan can authorize full engine swaps—under warranty—as has been done for forum members, yet Nissan has no faith in neither their dealerships' ability to install an oil cooler nor Nissan's oil cooler design that they sell without providing a warranty? I have had far too many vehicles with the option of additional cooling supplied through the dealership, with factory products, and have not encountered such nonsense until the 370Z. If you follow any of the Japanese blogs you find they mention the 370Z (Z34) propensity to get too hot to quickly. I believe that the press cars first driven on US shores were supplied with an HKS kit (that is actually a two part/two oil cooler kit) utilizing the part that is tucked away at the front of the US driver's side wheel.

Owners' motivation for an oil cooler may not even be related to driving the car enthusiastically, racing, etc, but for the piece-of-mind regarding additional oil and additional oil cooling. Though many of us are more than experienced wrenchers and very capable of installing an aftermarket oil cooler there are reasons that we might choose not to: Factory warranty, time, and circumstance. Some owners are not up to the task of installing an oil cooler (and they admit it). For owners' wanting this product, and willing to pay for this product, it beyond any rational reason that Nissan does not demonstrate even basic faith in their factory branded accessory that cannot, and should not be solely designated as a track/race item; because someone chooses to install an oil cooler does not mean that they will do either. The added benefits to engine and oil life, are nothing more than common sense, if not engineering sense.

Will it surprise me if others learn that the front brakes have insufficient cooling? Not one bit. Will Nissan answer the call? I believe that Nissan would rather obsolete a complete model without anteing-up versus admitting to any of their mistakes. Hence, Nissan's "value-laden" sales pitch approach. Look, we all the know the Z is a value. We get it. Nissan simply needs to pull their head out of their a$$ about issues and at least allow owners' to address the issues—with Nissan parts and warranty—even if it means owners' coming out of pocket.

Original Car and Driver article:The Lightning Lap, 2009 - Feature

ZKindaGuy, are you affiliated or do you work for Nissan?

rj45 · 05-03-2010, 07:27 AM

There's a difference between tracking a car for driver enjoyment and tracking for top performance. You can go out on the track in a Z, standard or Nismo, and drive it in a way you wish you could on the road. In this situation, I believe both models would survive just fine, and better than the average car. Hence, these 'track ready' marketing ads.

Then you have the guys who want to track their road cars like race cars, pushing hard and looking for every tenth, lap after lap. Road cars are not setup for this. Yeah, a GT3 or Scuderia is better suited for track use, but even they are compromise cars, not full fledged track cars.

That said, the Nismo Z probably should come standard with the (now optional) higher performance brake pads. The standard Z is fine with low dust/noise pads, IMO, and stops plenty well for normal/sporty road use.

ChrisSlicks · 05-03-2010, 07:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

There's a difference between tracking a car for driver enjoyment and tracking for top performance. You can go out on the track in a Z, standard or Nismo, and drive it in a way you wish you could on the road. In this situation, I believe both models would survive just fine, and better than the average car. Hence, these 'track ready' marketing ads.

I disagree. There is a sinister problem with the brakes and I don't believe it will be an easy fix, it is downright dangerous when driven with passion (even on the street) for an extended period of time and this is above and beyond the overheating issue.

You wouldn't make 3 laps around a track in a stock Z even driving moderately conservatively without overheating. As you limp back to the pits you will be passed by a 4-door Honda Civic that will complete the 20 minute session.

The cooking oil temperatures don't bother me as this problem can be solved, however the brakes, even after doing every mod possible (replacement calipers, 2-piece rotors, high-temp fluid, venting) will continue to be a problem. Unfortunately, like Toyota, it will probably take someone dying as a result before they admit there is a problem with the ABS program.

rj45 · 05-03-2010, 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ChrisSlicks

I disagree. There is a sinister problem with the brakes and I don't believe it will be an easy fix, it is downright dangerous when driven with passion (even on the street) for an extended period of time and this is above and beyond the overheating issue.

If this is indeed the reality, then Nissan should fix the design flaw, no question.

Although, exclusive of this Car and Driver/Nismo mishap, I don't remember reading a Z road test/comparison test that panned the car's brakes. Not saying these mags are the authority, but Id think one of them would have mentioned unusually bad brake fade/performance during testing.

Bottom line, though, if the Z's basic brake design/setup is a proven safety issue, the manufacturer should step up.

Kyle@STILLEN · 05-03-2010, 11:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike

how about availability for the ducts for my new bumper?

Although, I must say that I have had no boiling fluid issues since switching to Motul and brembo 6 pistons. I think its the mass of the calipers saving the day though.

I just saw the first production set of fangs/ducts last week. We will have them on our car on display at our open house this coming weekend. They probably won't have the ducts run yet (time crunch) but everything else will be in place.

Quote:

Originally Posted by blackbird

Josh at Stillen: I really need the new brake vents to be compatible with your new fascia. The new fascia and NISMO rear and Siebon hood go on this week.pp

No matter what we do with our fascia, our cooling kit will be compatible. Also, the vents/scoops that we designed specifically for the fascia are completed and will be shipping very soon.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mize

Kyle said they have ducts for the new fascia... (top of this page)

That could be the clincher for me buying the new fascia.

Also, why couldn't someone make ducts that mount to the fake holes outside the sharkteeth and route air directly to the pads? That would be a cheap solution, although it would mean cutting the stock fascia.

I'm looking into a third option (less expensive kit) for the people who want to stick with the factory fascia and don't want to go with our more elaborate cooling kit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by FuszNissan

Come on J hook Brake kit

We're very excited about this too!!! Shhhh....

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370Zsteve

Send it to Car & Driver

never mind Road & track will get pissed.

We plan on sending our car to numerous magazine's including Road and Track, Car and Driver, Automobile, and many, many more.

Quote:

Originally Posted by kannibul

No way in hell would I pay that much.

That's actually not a bad price for a complete GT R brake job...Sad...but true...

jabrother · 05-04-2010, 07:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rj45

If this is indeed the reality, then Nissan should fix the design flaw, no question.

Although, exclusive of this Car and Driver/Nismo mishap, I don't remember reading a Z road test/comparison test that panned the car's brakes. Not saying these mags are the authority, but Id think one of them would have mentioned unusually bad brake fade/performance during testing.

Bottom line, though, if the Z's basic brake design/setup is a proven safety issue, the manufacturer should step up.

The G37 S has been mentioned to have bad brake fade and it has the same braking system. Seen it in R&T and C&D.

tjlazer · 05-03-2010, 04:34 PM

Do aftermarket BBKs like Brembo, Stop Tech, etc have this brake problem on the 370Z?

shadoquad · 05-05-2010, 01:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tjlazer

Do aftermarket BBKs like Brembo, Stop Tech, etc have this brake problem on the 370Z?

Don't know if anyone else answered this already, but according to the C&D article, it doesn't matter what brakes you're using. The problem is a matter of overheating, in their judgment, although it seems this is mainly an issue if you're putting your Z on a track.

The solution would be some sort of brake cooling modification. Tuners like Stillen may offer an answer via body panels that properly vent the brakes. The stock body panels focus more on aerodynamics for the purpose of fuel economy, but this leads to excessive heat build-up in heavy braking.

That's what I got from the article and this thread, anyway.

Mike · 05-05-2010, 05:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by shadoquad

Don't know if anyone else answered this already, but according to the C&D article, it doesn't matter what brakes you're using. The problem is a matter of overheating, in their judgment, although it seems this is mainly an issue if you're putting your Z on a track.

The solution would be some sort of brake cooling modification. Tuners like Stillen may offer an answer via body panels that properly vent the brakes. The stock body panels focus more on aerodynamics for the purpose of fuel economy, but this leads to excessive heat build-up in heavy braking.

That's what I got from the article and this thread, anyway.

Kind of, but the added mass of my brembo gt calipers does allow me to do a full 30 minute session with no problems. I don't know how much longer than 30 they would last though, but 30 is enough

gumpy · 05-03-2010, 05:56 PM

I have some questions, a bit noob so please forgive me.

1. The area between the fangs and the normal part of the bumper for the normal z is blocked up... could this not be modified to allow the air through on to the brakes? When I first saw the pics on the internet I thought that was what they were for...

2. If the sports brakes die so quickly, how much quicker would the non sports brakes die? Is the sports brakes on the z just for show to give the car larger rotors or is their a tangible benefit of having these large rotors?

3. Normal cars, the everyday camry or sonata or altima... how quickly will these brakes die if put through the same abuse? Are we talking 2 100-0mph stops and they're done?

I'll be reasonably sad if our sports brakes are just for show and don't really had a tangible safety/performance benefit. They do have great brake feel though...

klubbheads · 05-03-2010, 06:19 PM

All this panic.... wow.

I would love to hear someone that actually tracked the car hard nismo or not with sports package. If you have i'm assuming you did have hi temp fluid, steel braded lines, and race pads because that is what you would do to any car that goes to the track let it be a vette or a toyota camry.

If anyone falls into this category then you are welcome to give your input here. The rest of the thread is full of panic and assumption based on an article that was published to justify the stupidity of the test driver that failed to realise that brakes are fading i better slow the fvck down.....

05-02-2010, 07:15 PM	#2 (permalink)
Mike The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Jun 2009 Location: Loganville, GA Posts: 5,944 Drives: 370z Rep Power: 2187	the only car on the market that is track ready right out of the box is the Porsche GT3, everything else needs something to make it ready. __________________ NISSAN: 75 280Z / 86 300ZX GLL /87 Sentra SE / 03 350Z / 23 Z Porsche: 93 968 / 23 Macan GTS / 93 968

05-03-2010, 04:34 PM	#11 (permalink)
tjlazer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2009 Location: Tacoma Age: 53 Posts: 2,496 Drives: Z34, R35 Rep Power: 20	Do aftermarket BBKs like Brembo, Stop Tech, etc have this brake problem on the 370Z? __________________ 2009 370Z Monterey Blue,Nismo Conversion,RE-11's, K&N Typhoon intakes,Blue Kickplates,Homelink,FI 18" CBE,ERZ HFCs,Hotchkis sways, Swift Spec-R, EVO-R Highwing, UPREV

05-03-2010, 06:19 PM	#15 (permalink)
klubbheads Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: North Hollywood, CA Posts: 221 Drives: Very slow Nismo 370 Rep Power: 17	All this panic.... wow. I would love to hear someone that actually tracked the car hard nismo or not with sports package. If you have i'm assuming you did have hi temp fluid, steel braded lines, and race pads because that is what you would do to any car that goes to the track let it be a vette or a toyota camry. If anyone falls into this category then you are welcome to give your input here. The rest of the thread is full of panic and assumption based on an article that was published to justify the stupidity of the test driver that failed to realise that brakes are fading i better slow the fvck down..... __________________ g35driver OG.

Similar Threads
Thread	Thread Starter	Forum	Replies	Last Post
dreams about crashing your Z	gleonard	Nissan 370Z General Discussions	40	10-08-2010 08:21 PM
Car and Driver Follows Up On Crashed Nismo 370Z	Mag350Z	Nissan 370Z General Discussions	17	04-27-2010 09:40 AM
Crashing with VDC off	semtex	Nissan 370Z General Discussions	46	04-20-2010 02:01 PM
Car and Driver Crashes a Nismo 370Z	Mag350Z	Nissan 370Z General Discussions	209	04-17-2010 07:08 PM
Crashing this 370z Party right yo!!	shezzzhot	New Forum Member	36	11-19-2009 11:45 PM

05-02-2010, 08:23 PM	#3 (permalink)
The BlueMax Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Louisville Posts: 337 Drives: 09 370/97 T/A 01 ZRX Rep Power: 26	I've tracked my 97WS6 before with some friends with other F-bodies and Vettes, before we go we prep with Dot5 brake fluid and high temp pads. You will go through a set of pads over the weekend and your tires will be pretty much gone depending on how much and how hard your driving. But its so much involved then just drag racing. BTW one magazine just posted a brake job done at the dealership for their longterm GTR. At 26,000 miles the rotors, pads, fluid and labor came to 7,400 dollars, I wouldn't be able to except or absorb that cost.

05-03-2010, 07:27 AM	#6 (permalink)
rj45 Base Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: USA Posts: 60 Drives: 40th Anniversary Z Rep Power: 16	There's a difference between tracking a car for driver enjoyment and tracking for top performance. You can go out on the track in a Z, standard or Nismo, and drive it in a way you wish you could on the road. In this situation, I believe both models would survive just fine, and better than the average car. Hence, these 'track ready' marketing ads. Then you have the guys who want to track their road cars like race cars, pushing hard and looking for every tenth, lap after lap. Road cars are not setup for this. Yeah, a GT3 or Scuderia is better suited for track use, but even they are compromise cars, not full fledged track cars. That said, the Nismo Z probably should come standard with the (now optional) higher performance brake pads. The standard Z is fine with low dust/noise pads, IMO, and stops plenty well for normal/sporty road use.

05-03-2010, 05:56 PM	#14 (permalink)
gumpy Enthusiast Member Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: Sydney Posts: 449 Drives: 09 370z white manual Rep Power: 16	I have some questions, a bit noob so please forgive me. 1. The area between the fangs and the normal part of the bumper for the normal z is blocked up... could this not be modified to allow the air through on to the brakes? When I first saw the pics on the internet I thought that was what they were for... 2. If the sports brakes die so quickly, how much quicker would the non sports brakes die? Is the sports brakes on the z just for show to give the car larger rotors or is their a tangible benefit of having these large rotors? 3. Normal cars, the everyday camry or sonata or altima... how quickly will these brakes die if put through the same abuse? Are we talking 2 100-0mph stops and they're done? I'll be reasonably sad if our sports brakes are just for show and don't really had a tangible safety/performance benefit. They do have great brake feel though...