CoronaVirus

bunk · 04-20-2020, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

Yup there is a bi-partisan effort to stop the economy, print out bunch of money, put 10% of the workforce out of work. They did it because they won the 2020 election.

The Wuhan virus is nothing more than the common flu, the images from Italy, Spain, China are deep fakes too right?

Do people actually believe this $hit?

If you dont think corona virus is being used as a political tool, youve got blinders on.

cossie1600 · 04-20-2020, 12:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunk

If you dont think corona virus is being used as a political tool, youve got blinders on.

There is a huge difference between politicians using disasters to earn brownie points (CA-AB828) than shutting down the state during a disaster. CA and TX are both in shelter in place...

You like to think everything is political, but there are a lot of people who don't care about the left or right. People who blames everything on politics are the ones who have a political agenda.

Ghostvette · 04-20-2020, 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

There is a huge difference between politicians using disasters to earn brownie points (CA-AB828) than shutting down the state during a disaster. CA and TX are both in shelter in place...

You like to think everything is political, but there are a lot of people who don't care about the left or right.

Oh..... you mean the 'altruistic' people that only want to help humanity......

bunk · 04-20-2020, 01:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

There is a huge difference between politicians using disasters to earn brownie points (CA-AB828) than shutting down the state during a disaster. CA and TX are both in shelter in place...

You like to think everything is political, but there are a lot of people who don't care about the left or right. People who blames everything on politics are the ones who have a political agenda.

Its not that I "like to think everything is political", it that this issue is. Back during the State of the Union address, Trump began to sound the alarms about the virus. What did the Dems do? They said that trump was trying to distract from the impeachment hearings. Then he wanted to close the borders, what did the Dems say? That Trump was being a racist xenophobe. Now that the seriousness of the virus is on full display, the Dems are now saying Trump didnt do enough soon enough.
Tell me that ISNT political.

cossie1600 · 04-20-2020, 01:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunk

Its not that I "like to think everything is political", it that this issue is. Back during the State of the Union address, Trump began to sound the alarms about the virus. What did the Dems do? They said that trump was trying to distract from the impeachment hearings. Then he wanted to close the borders, what did the Dems say? That Trump was being a racist xenophobe. Now that the seriousness of the virus is on full display, the Dems are now saying Trump didnt do enough soon enough.
Tell me that ISNT political.

Yes it was, but he could have done it without them. This is the same person that is pushing for his supporters to rally everywhere now. Both extreme sides are dumb and stupid

, happy?

ZCanadian · 04-20-2020, 01:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunk

Its not that I "like to think everything is political", it that this issue is. Back during the State of the Union address, Trump began to sound the alarms about the virus. What did the Dems do? They said that trump was trying to distract from the impeachment hearings. Then he wanted to close the borders, what did the Dems say? That Trump was being a racist xenophobe. Now that the seriousness of the virus is on full display, the Dems are now saying Trump didnt do enough soon enough.
Tell me that ISNT political.

I'm afraid that what your president has SAID on the matter is quite different from his actions on many occasions. This is not me being political. Just pointing out that what the other side said might, in some cases, be quite valid. And sometimes also gets twisted by new sources, just as what he says does by others.

For instance, closing the border with China probably was described as xenophobic, But since the virus was already worldwide by then it was also not a coherent policy decision. So, maybe it was really more of a political move in support of his wider trade war?

By the time of the closing of the border and the SOTUA, the world knew about the virus for a month. Media in other parts of the world were "sounding the alarm" for some time already.

There will be plenty of political fodder for the vultures of both sides to pick at once this train wreck is all over. I only wish that they could cooperate for long enough to get us there. In that respect (the fact that each wants the other to wear this), it is a political pawn. And because of that, I think you should hold trials, rather than an election this November. Those found worthy in a court of law would be allowed to run for office. The others all given covid laced popsicles to suck on!

bunk · 04-20-2020, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

I'm afraid that what your president has SAID on the matter is quite different from his actions on many occasions. This is not me being political. Just pointing out that what the other side said might, in some cases, be quite valid. And sometimes also gets twisted by new sources, just as what he says does by others.

For instance, closing the border with China probably was described as xenophobic, But since the virus was already worldwide by then it was also not a coherent policy decision. So, maybe it was really more of a political move in support of his wider trade war?

By the time of the closing of the border and the SOTUA, the world knew about the virus for a month. Media in other parts of the world were "sounding the alarm" for some time already.

There will be plenty of political fodder for the vultures of both sides to pick at once this train wreck is all over. I only wish that they could cooperate for long enough to get us there. In that respect (the fact that each wants the other to wear this), it is a political pawn. And because of that, I think you should hold trials, rather than an election this November. Those found worthy in a court of law would be allowed to run for office. The others all given covid laced popsicles to suck on!

Closing the border to China could or could not have been a move to put pressure on China with regards to the trade war (doubt it though, because commerce was not blocked... but Chinas manufacturing had been halted from their shutdown). Regrdless, it was the right move. Then a few weeks later, he closed the border to Europe when Italy's cases began to go up. And again was called a xenophobe.

FL 4Motion · 04-20-2020, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunk

Closing the border to China could or could not have been a move to put pressure on China with regards to the trade war (doubt it though, because commerce was not blocked... but Chinas manufacturing had been halted from their shutdown). Regrdless, it was the right move. Then a few weeks later, he closed the border to Europe when Italy's cases began to go up. And again was called a xenophobe.

The biggest issue with the current admin imo, was the pissing away of the opportunity they had to ramp up preparations during dec to feb timeframe. Also this apparent unwillingness to really utilize the dpa to the extent needed, always seems too little to late. Apparently bc of free market principles more than anything else, there are two things that trump capitalism imo, health and national defense, you don’t give up fighting a war that could result in lose of freedom cause it’s too expensive, no price is too high to ensure liberty, but our rich entitled elites seem to think that price only includes poor and working class/middle class blood, not their portfolios. Also, poor health outcomes eventually results in poor economic outcomes, unless of course, you just offshore all the labor, then to hell with regular folks ability to access quality health care, let those mutherfvckers eat cake. Not advocating for single payer necessarily, but we need massive health care reform and a drastic reduction in health care costs at every level.

ZCanadian · 04-20-2020, 02:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion

The biggest issue with the current admin imo, was the pissing away of the opportunity they had to ramp up preparations during dec to feb timeframe. Also this apparent unwillingness to really utilize the dpa to the extent needed, always seems too little to late. Apparently bc of free market principles more than anything else, there are two things that trump capitalism imo, health and national defense, you don’t give up fighting a war that could result in lose of freedom cause it’s too expensive, no price is too high to ensure liberty, but our rich entitled elites seem to think that price only includes poor and working class/middle class blood, not their portfolios. Also, poor health outcomes eventually results in poor economic outcomes, unless of course, you just offshore all the labor, then to hell with regular folks ability to access quality health care, let those mutherfvckers eat cake. Not advocating for single payer necessarily, but we need massive health care reform and a drastic reduction in health care costs at every level.

Interesting thing, the DPA.

I'm not that familiar with what was happening down there, but up here companies were falling all over each other to volunteer to change production over to masks, respirators, gowns, face shields. As soon as bars closed down, breweries from micro to some of the nations largest realized that they could keep people on by switching to hand sanitizer, and they did. Car parts makers, recognizing shut-downs would disrupt the supply chain greatly but mass layoffs would cause havoc on the other end of this, switched to making medical devices. Not saying they were efficient at it, but they saw an opportunity to keep people working and do their bit. No legislation required.

It did not hurt that the federal government offered to subsidize payrolls (up to 75% for any size company that could show a covid-related 30%+ drop in revenue from the month a year ago (or the month prior in the case of start-ups or fast growing companies). But that offer came after some big players had already announced they were pivoting for the greater good.

Don't know about you but if I have to go into hospital, I want my respirator to have this logo! :-)

ZCanadian · 04-20-2020, 02:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bunk

Closing the border to China could or could not have been a move to put pressure on China with regards to the trade war (doubt it though, because commerce was not blocked... but Chinas manufacturing had been halted from their shutdown). Regrdless, it was the right move. Then a few weeks later, he closed the border to Europe when Italy's cases began to go up. And again was called a xenophobe.

The European ban could have been criticized but only for a day, mainly by EU leaders as I recall. The WHO followed up with the same advice within 24 hours. I suspect that was an intentionally coordinated response. And yes, the right thing to do.

But it was 2 weeks before that when Italy's cases actually started to skyrocket. I don't think he ever shut down flights from South Korea (which had more cases earlier on than Italy did) until borders were locked down completely. By March 12 when the European ban was announced, the virus was present in most countries including the USA (which still had no working testing regime).

Funny (well, not funny, but strange) thing is, Canada did not institute the same travel bans (China, Europe) until later in March when all inbound traffic was halted. Yet (touch wood, not gloating by any means) our infection and death rates seem much lower. Infection rates per capita one could attribute to a smaller percentage of the population being tested as yet here. But deaths and hospitalizations are reasonably accurate numbers on both sides. We did instigate fairly rigorous closures / distancing measures, though not the lockdowns that China had by any means.

What's the right answer? Damned if I know. We can discuss that in about 18 months. I'd sure hate to be in charge right now, though!

FL 4Motion · 04-20-2020, 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

The European ban could have been criticized but only for a day, mainly by EU leaders as I recall. The WHO followed up with the same advice within 24 hours. I suspect that was an intentionally coordinated response. And yes, the right thing to do.

But it was 2 weeks before that when Italy's cases actually started to skyrocket. I don't think he ever shut down flights from South Korea (which had more cases earlier on than Italy did) until borders were locked down completely. By March 12 when the European ban was announced, the virus was present in most countries including the USA (which still had no working testing regime).

Funny (well, not funny, but strange) thing is, Canada did not institute the same travel bans (China, Europe) until later in March when all inbound traffic was halted. Yet (touch wood, not gloating by any means) our infection and death rates seem much lower. Infection rates per capita one could attribute to a smaller percentage of the population being tested as yet here. But deaths and hospitalizations are reasonably accurate numbers on both sides. We did instigate fairly rigorous closures / distancing measures, though not the lockdowns that China had by any means.

What's the right answer? Damned if I know. We can discuss that in about 18 months. I'd sure hate to be in charge right now, though!

Are Canucks healthier overall than us Americans? Ie, fewer preexisting conditions per capita. Less chronic stress, heart disease, obesity etc? Better access to healthcare (just stepped on a land mine with that one

).

Maybe I should just start ending my sentences with eh, and increase my daily dose of maple syrup.

FL 4Motion · 04-20-2020, 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

Do what you want, but with the realization that coming out 2 weeks too early means more deaths and shutting down the economy a second time, for longer, with more stimulus spending. Also means (if the above happens) that the US will be behind the rest of the world in terms of economic recovery and the ability to travel freely again. And that many businesses/individuals who are badly hurting now will be lost.

You've (mostly) done a great job it knocking this virus back in the last 2-3 weeks. But it means that for places like NYC the curve is flattening - not going away, but you're getting to the top of the crest of the wave. You need it to go down the other side, or 2,500 deaths a day will be the norm for months to come. Other places are just beginning to see the surge in cases and hospitalizations. Without proper testing (you're at about 1% of the population so far, which is great, but some of those tests are now 5 weeks old and irrelevant anymore) you don't have a good picture as to when it is safe to start moving around again. Even when it is, "free" movement will be impossilbe. There will be a new normal for another 12 to 18 months at least, until a vaccine or cure is found, or there is significant herd immunity from those who have had mild cases.

To do so would mean that every life lost, every penny spent to date, would be in vain.
Maybe to put it in more relevant terms, this is like the first Gulf War. Leaving Saddam Hussein in charge only lead to a second, much worse one. Repeating this folly here, with the mistaken impression that you know more than the experts advising your leaders, will have the same results.

We are in a classic dammed if you do, dammed if you don’t scenario. And the problem is we’ve been trying to have it both ways and failing to an extent bc of it. The only two real options have always been, China model, aka brutal lockdown and literally wait it out. Or, do nothing and ride it out in an attempt to preserve the economy (somewhat) at the expense of citizens lives, how many, tbd. The US is doing halfassed quarantine measures, even the most stringent areas don’t really come close to other more totalitarian countries, so that drags the pain both medically and economically out over a longer period. One of the main reasons for that is the whole mentality of a free society (not a bad thing, but it can create hurdles in situations like this, individual liberty vs common good health wise). Put it at a personal level, would you sacrifice your wife or child so someone half the country away can make his next mortgage payment or buy diapers for his new baby. See, no good or “right” answer to that. Americans, in my experience really have a hard time with these type of dilemmas bc we tend to have a very adolescent view of the world, up vs down, black vs white, good vs evil, communism vs capitalism. Sometimes this is accurate and when it is, we Americans tend to rise to the occasion and lead and do well, think WWII for example. The problem is our leaders and media try to place everything into this type of box and this pandemic is a perfect example of how that is failing us. Times like these require strong, courageous leadership to make the case for whatever the perceived “best” path forward is and then drag the whole country in that direction by sheer force of conviction and logical persuasive arguments. History would prove that person right.

I had more to say but I just forgot my train of thought...

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ghostvette

I'm not claiming to know more than the experts, I'm just saying that some governors are using this as carte blanche to trample the rights of the people. I'll make it real simple; A quarantine is for sick people, imprisonment is for healthy people. What we have going on now is imprisonment. There is ample proof that this is not overwhelming the hospitals where I live and several other states. 85%+ of the state of Kansas is rural, and 'social distance' as a matter of course, yet they have maybe 1 case per county. Is that justification to make them stay home? No. In the county where I live, 90% of the cases are in 2 zip codes or one city, Olathe. (Google it.) The demographics of that city are such that the large portion of the population are Hispanic, with about 30% of the Hispanic population being illegals. The illegals probably have a high incident of this because they won't seek health care because they might be asked about their immigration status.

We have a tinpot dictator that pretends she is a governor. She has already stated that she will not comply with the President's recommendations to reopen the state. She wants to see ZERO cases before she will ALLOW the state to conduct business. THAT CANNOT STAND. Nothing in our Constitution says that our rights are vacated in the event of a pandemic. The rights codified in the Constitution are rights granted by our Creator, not the government, a concept I'm not sure you fully grasp. Freedom is dangerous, that is the nature of the beast.

In practical reality, the CCP virus has been around since late November. With the symptoms given; fever, chest congestion, unproductive cough, I've already had this virus. I had it between Christmas & New Year when I was on vacation. There is not this level of hysteria over the annual flu, which kills more people. I question the number of people dying from this, considering NYC said everyone that died had the CCP virus, even though they didn't test them. That's controlling the narrative.....

Hang on ghost, earlier you said this virus killed millions based on Chinese cell data or something to that extent, now your saying it isn’t that deadly. Which is it? It can’t be both an underreported mass causality event cover up in China and also much ado about nothing and a liberal conspiracy to take away our freedoms cause it’s just another “common cold” or flu. Gotta stick to one conspiracy narrative man.

I do agree that in the USA, our quarantine/social distancing guidelines etc, how each area deals with this should be tailored to that specific area and not a one size fits all approach. HOWEVER, that only works if there is total lockdown on freedom of movement outside of each persons local area. This actually would have been the best way to do a quarantine here, case by case exemptions for goods only, military/national guard enforce and back local Leo’s but inside your “zone”, you are able to live as normally as the pandemic lets you. Ie, nyc would be very different than rural Kansas zone and both would be still different from medium size town zone and each zone would have to adjust for fire as the conditions on the ground changed. This would have less day to day impact on people and preserve some freedom of movement etc, but it would on principle be a hard pill for Americans to swallow. Less economic impact as well but there’d still be very serious effects, which govt bailout $$ would be used to mitigate as needed.