CoronaVirus

SouthArk370Z · 03-30-2020, 04:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

... Yet this was entirely preventable, and the escalation can still be headed off.

It is not preventable on any realistic level. These "plagues" are going to crop up every now and then. Some people will always be overly optimistic and slow to respond (if they respond at all). Unfortunately, those people are often in charge of the response.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

It's impossible to protect people from themselves, but sometimes it has to be better to try.

Fixed that for ya.

I don't agree that it is necessarily better to try. People should have the right to do with themselves as they see fit. If Mother Nature thinks what they do is wrong, she will handle it.
Of course, when what they do harm to someone else, they should be stopped, but protecting them from themselves is ultimately counter-productive.

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

Were the restrictions in the 5 days following 9/11 justified? Would you have agreed to those beginning the day before that tragedy? I don't think many would object, in hindsight. We have the benefit of seeing what happened in China, Italy, and now Spain. Why volunteer to be next? I think that Einstein had something to say about that :-)

I'm not saying the US (and other countries) shouldn't be locked down for a while to limit damage - I think that would be a good idea. I was just pointing out that the US legal system does not allow that except in a declared national emergency. We have the emergency, just not the declaration.

ZCanadian · 03-30-2020, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

It is not preventable on any realistic level. These "plagues" are going to crop up every now and then. Some people will always be overly optimistic and slow to respond (if they respond at all). Unfortunately, those people are often in charge of the response.

The disease not, but the severity of the contagion yes.

Exhibit 1, Singapore.
2/3 the population of NYC in half the area, and in the shadow of China (lots of travel, trade, and expat community). Total of 879 cases, 1/4 of which are recovered, with only 3 deaths. First case was January 23.

Taiwan, as well (although politics prevent its status being reported independently from those of of mainland China since WHO amalgamated all Chinese data earlier this month) had its first case by January 21 and only 50 cases / 1 death by March 15.

Neither state is in lockdown. In fact, it has been business as usual for most citizens.

Compare to the New York experience. The lives saved came at the cost of a temporary loss of liberty, for sure. But not that much, because their governments reacted very quickly to the Chinese reports. There are temperature tests everywhere, incoming flights were screened from early January, those with the virus are under house arrest with GPS phone tracking and follow-up by police. The military was tasked with procuring or producing medical PPE. The travel and health care databases were merged and that shared with doctors and pharmacists who were asked to monitor and report suspected cases based on treatment or medication purchases (yes, the ACLU is apoplectic about now). But you can still go to a restaurant or a movie, or get your hair cut.

The point is, these lost freedoms (and more) are probably coming America's way. As you said, the state of emergency need only be declared. I suspect that the loved ones of most of the current and future victims probably aren't touting the "live free or die" mantra today. :-(

DLSTR · 03-30-2020, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by ZCanadian

The disease not, but the severity of the contagion yes.

Exhibit 1, Singapore.
2/3 the population of NYC in half the area, and in the shadow of China (lots of travel, trade, and expat community). Total of 879 cases, 1/4 of which are recovered, with only 3 deaths. First case was January 23.

Taiwan, as well (although politics prevent its status being reported independently from those of of mainland China since WHO amalgamated all Chinese data earlier this month) had its first case by January 21 and only 50 cases / 1 death by March 15.

Neither state is in lockdown. In fact, it has been business as usual for most citizens.

Compare to the New York experience. The lives saved came at the cost of a temporary loss of liberty, for sure. But not that much, because their governments reacted very quickly to the Chinese reports. There are temperature tests everywhere, incoming flights were screened from early January, those with the virus are under house arrest with GPS phone tracking and follow-up by police. The military was tasked with procuring or producing medical PPE. The travel and health care databases were merged and that shared with doctors and pharmacists who were asked to monitor and report suspected cases based on treatment or medication purchases (yes, the ACLU is apoplectic about now). But you can still go to a restaurant or a movie, or get your hair cut.

The point is, these lost freedoms (and more) are probably coming America's way. As you said, the state of emergency need only be declared. I suspect that the loved ones of most of the current and future victims probably aren't touting the "live free or die" mantra today. :-(

Preparation and execute the plan. Ive spent alot of time in Asia and Singapore in particular. Hygiene matters and is practiced overall. My friends in Taiwan echo this. Its a cohesive effort with people taking it seriously.

BettyZ · 03-30-2020, 05:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

It is not preventable on any realistic level. These "plagues" are going to crop up every now and then. Some people will always be overly optimistic and slow to respond (if they respond at all). Unfortunately, those people are often in charge of the response.

Fixed that for ya.

I don't agree that it is necessarily better to try. People should have the right to do with themselves as they see fit. If Mother Nature thinks what they do is wrong, she will handle it.

Of course, when what they do harm to someone else, they should be stopped, but protecting them from themselves is ultimately counter-productive.

I'm not saying the US (and other countries) shouldn't be locked down for a while to limit damage - I think that would be a good idea. I was just pointing out that the US legal system does not allow that except in a declared national emergency. We have the emergency, just not the declaration.

Quick Constitutional law refresher:

We have a declared state of national emergency. But that doesn't allow for a federally-mandated 'lockdown.' The federal gov't has no police powers - the authority to regulate behavior and enforce order within a territory for the betterment of the health, safety, morals, and general welfare of the inhabitants within. That authority is reserved for the states under the Tenth Amendment.

The Constitutional right to travel freely is held under Article IV of the Constitution and the 14th Amendment. Both Shapiro v. Thompson and Saenz v. Roe have affirmed a Constitutional right to travel freely, and held that any government impingement on said right is subject to strict scrutiny.

Strict scrutiny requires that a law be struck down unless:

It is necessary to a "compelling state interest";

The law is "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose;

That the law uses the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose.

In the case of states closing borders to citizens of other states, while stopping the spread of this contagion is certainly a compelling state interest, such a blanket ban is neither narrowly tailored nor the least restrictive means available to achieve this compelling interest.

Therefore, such bans or border closures are unconstitutional.

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cossie1600 · 03-30-2020, 06:13 PM

Don't worry about it. It won't matter in another few days because ton of people will be infected and die, I guess some folks will die happy because they upheld the constitution and I am sure some folks will be happy that they upheld the constitution even though they sent some folks to their graves.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyZ

Quick Constitutional law refresher:

We have a declared state of national emergency. But that doesn't allow for a federally-mandated 'lockdown.' The federal gov't has no police powers - the authority to regulate behavior and enforce order within a territory for the betterment of the health, safety, morals, and general welfare of the inhabitants within. That authority is reserved for the states under the Tenth Amendment.

The Constitutional right to travel freely is held under Article IV of the Constitution and the 14th Amendment. Both Shapiro v. Thompson and Saenz v. Roe have affirmed a Constitutional right to travel freely, and held that any government impingement on said right is subject to strict scrutiny.

Strict scrutiny requires that a law be struck down unless:

It is necessary to a "compelling state interest";

The law is "narrowly tailored" to achieving this compelling purpose;

That the law uses the "least restrictive means" to achieve the purpose.

In the case of states closing borders to citizens of other states, while stopping the spread of this contagion is certainly a compelling state interest, such a blanket ban is neither narrowly tailored nor the least restrictive means available to achieve this compelling interest.

Therefore, such bans or border closures are unconstitutional.

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SouthArk370Z · 03-30-2020, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by cossie1600

Don't worry about it. It won't matter in another few days because ton of people will be infected and die, I guess some folks will die happy because they upheld the constitution and I am sure some folks will be happy that they upheld the constitution even though they sent some folks to their graves.

Life is not easy. Life is not safe. Life is not fair. And Mother Nature is a triple-headed mega-bitch.

I don't want people to die but that's just the way the Universe we live in works. I didn't make the rules but I still have to live by them.

Mother Nature is having her revenge. She does the same with any species that over-populates an area. We humans have decimated/eliminated many species for our own convenience.

SouthArk370Z · 03-30-2020, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BettyZ

Quick Constitutional law refresher: ...

Thanks for the clarification.

I was using "emergency" wrong. From what I have read, it would take something like martial law for the Feds to step in. I'm definitely not a law expert, so, if that is wrong, please let me know.

Rusty · 03-30-2020, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

Thanks for the clarification.

I was using "emergency" wrong. From what I have read, it would take something like martial law for the Feds to step in. I'm definitely not a law expert, so, if that is wrong, please let me know.

Basically the way it works. The mayor has to ask the governor to declare a disaster. The governor declares a disaster. Then has to ask the president to declare a disaster. Then the president declares a disaster. Then the Feds get to work. IF the governor drags his feet. The president can't do anything until the governor declares a disaster. If the president does act before the governor. The president just stepped over his power. This is what happened with Katrina. The governor drug his feet in declaring a disaster. The Feds had everything staged and was waiting to go in and help. But had to wait instead.

SouthArk370Z · 03-30-2020, 09:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

... The mayor has to ask the governor ... Then has to ask the president to declare a disaster. ... IF the governor drags his feet. The president can't do anything until the governor declares a disaster. If the president does act before the governor. The president just stepped over his power. ...

I would like to believe that Congress, POTUS, FEMA, et al, will learn from this experience and streamline the process so that there are not so many delays next time ... but I really don't see it happening. The basic framework appears to be there but it needs some tweaking. It will take much wisdom and a willingness to do what is right for The Country to balance citizen vs state vs federal rights and responsibilities during a big emergency. I haven't seen much of either in Washington lately.

You folks in California, the Gulf Coast, NYC, and other places prone to disasters should be marching in the streets (as soon as the quarantine is over) to get this crap straightened out.

Rusty · 03-30-2020, 10:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

I would like to believe that Congress, POTUS, FEMA, et al, will learn from this experience and streamline the process so that there are not so many delays next time ... but I really don't see it happening. The basic framework appears to be there but it needs some tweaking. It will take much wisdom and a willingness to do what is right for The Country to balance citizen vs state vs federal rights and responsibilities during a big emergency. I haven't seen much of either in Washington lately.

You folks in California, the Gulf Coast, NYC, and other places prone to disasters should be marching in the streets (as soon as the quarantine is over) to get this crap straightened out.

The states had a big hand in being under prepared for something like this too. There is enough blame to go around to everyone. From the feds all the way down to the general public.

The preppers are sitting at home laughing their heads off over this. They don't have to go and get anything for the most part. Because they already had it a long time ago. The only things I had to go out for was bacon, eggs, bread,and milk.

SouthArk370Z · 03-30-2020, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

The states had a big hand in being under prepared for something like this too. There is enough blame to go around to everyone. From the feds all the way down to the general public.

True dat. I should have included state and local authorities in the list of agencies that need to get their feces in one pile and start working with each other, not against.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rusty

The preppers are sitting at home laughing their heads off over this. They don't have to go and get anything for the most part. Because they already had it a long time ago. The only things I had to go out for was bacon, eggs, bread,and milk.

I don't consider myself to be a true prepper* but I've got quite a bit of food, water, fuel, etc stashed around the house.

I'm not laughing at the unprepared; I'm keeping a close eye on them in case they decide they want my stuff.

*I'm not a real Modo, I'm just a Quasimodo.