Humm... I forgot you were still using the oem maf size.... there is some power to be gained after your testing with curent setup. :tup:

not when you're in open loop haha.

i know i need a tune. already had knocking with just the LTH install. the log didnt show it but the dyno did. not sure which tuner to believe though so im staying out of open loop/WOT till i get tuned.

i contacted Hal at dynosty since i saw Jon at Z1 say "if you cant tune down here, hal is A OK in my book." dynosty is much closer so we'll see what he says. if i do tune there then ill still come back home and do 3 runs at IPS so we have a before and after on the same dyno. dynosty uses a dynapak i believe so no point in showing those results when ive never been on it before.

why would pulling the OEM MAF section out gain power? the stillen is the same size. since im not boosted and blow through, id guess as long as the MAF voltage isnt maxed it'd make as much power at 2.35" ID as it would at any other ID no?

no.

since the TBs is now bigger with a slightly smaller shaft, it can flow quite a bit more.
The oem maf tube is your next bottle neck on your system depending if your exhaust can flow freely the new setup.

what can help you understand my point is you don't want vacuum (restriction) into your intake at WOT. if you have a precise tool , I guarantee you there is .

Yeah, I don't believe we get the target AFR behavior in open loop mode. Open loop is still really open loop. That said, surely it's at least somewhat influenced by the ECU's learned trims from closed loop when it goes into open? I have no idea, just speculating.

So if I had a stillen cai I'd be even worse off because its 2.35" ID through and through? If I did change it I'd have to be tuned and change it at the tuner since itd be undrivable there. It's a lot of work for possibly little gain. I'd just need ID pipe bigger than then the TB no? I have that all but at the MAF which is about 5", a section that's about 8", a section that's about 5" and a section that's 2.5".

To me closed loop targets 14.5 at xx timing, pretty basic. Open is by itself targeting whatever AFR and timing you're running based off of load and rpm.

if you say so...


it all has to work together at the end.
I say you are still leaving some power under the table.


im not saying this to be mean ,, just from experience & learning from others :)

?? Maybe I'm misunderstanding you, or I don't understand this **** as well as I thought I did. I thought our AFR target maps (the ones you can modify based on rpm/load/whatever) were what it used in closed-loop mode to realtime-tune the fuel trims based on feedback from the upper O2's to reach the desired target AFRs.

I also thought, by definition, "open loop" meant you're running on a fixed set of fuel tables (perhaps including recently-learned trims from closed-loop mode) but *not* using AFR from the upper O2's to modify the fueling in realtime to try to reach a specific target anymore. In other words, closed loop is based on realtime feedback, and open loop isn't.

Well picture this, I thought of flow too...

Stillen 2.35" through and through, smooth flow.

Mine 2.5" then 2.35" then 2.5" then 2.35" etc, a little bumpy even though I knife edged the 2.35" sections on both sides.

Possible new cai, 2.5" ID sections where silicon is, then new sections of 2.75" OD. Now I'm not sure of the ID on the 2.75" OD pipe (2.63" i think, 0.11 wall) but I'll have to stretch the silicon sections at the connections. This will make the flow also bumpy as the silicon will be smooth, then open up larger than 2.75", then the air will hit the knife edge of the 2.75" OD pipe. While that's the most cubic inches in size, it'll probably be the least free flowing.

in case you didnt get that i mean this...while id have all sections now bigger than the TB opening, wouldnt this hurt flow some?

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps0e003551.jpg

Subi is switched. Real time is open loop but with a non wide band O2 it can only read and adjust down to like 11.2afr which is bad when you need to run richer. Maybe nissan is different being NA. Megan should know.

Im in the garage right now using my cell, i will make it short.
I think understand what you just explained but I wouldnt put a bigger maf tube (2.75 OD) than what your intake is. It would just transfer the bottleneck somewhere elese and causing some intake resonance because of the relatively big gap of your last bottom picture.

IMO, your maf tube should be flowing slightly better than your TB. And from your maf to your intake manifold should either be the same or bigger than the flowing capability of your MAF tube. which help with throttle reponse if its a bit bigger

I would think with the intake you would want to have the largest ID at the filter and the smallest at the TB. That way you can increase the velocity of the air flow into the manifold. If you have restricted sections (by the MAFs) you will be creating a vacuum that prevents the maximum amount of air from flowing.

So I would think you want something like 2.75" - 2.5" - 2.35".

Depend what your goal is . This is partialy true.
If your pre-throttle tube is smaller than the Tb itself and the Maf . You are killing the throttle respond which for an N/a setup isnt something you want.

But I totaly agree from the filter up to the entry of the maf tube. Should be bigger
this is what was done on my custom cai... starting from 3" down to 63.5mm.

But I don't have a choice. The MAF section and some small sections are only 2.35" ID and the bottle neck. The TB is now 2.48". I either replace them with 2.63" ID (2.75" pipe) or leave them alone. I can't make what you made. If I replace all 2.35" sections my cai would roughly be 2.5" with with a few 2.63" sections. As you said to N0SL3N this might be good since the cai will taper into the smallest spot (the TB again).

Ok I did a little research.

The TB lip is 2.81" at its largest. That tells me the Z1 post tube is around that size ID since it has to slip over it. Now its not hard to slip over but it's also not that easy. So I'm going to guess the several inches of the z1 post tube is around 2.7ish inch ID.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps387aa232.jpg

Now the OEM MAF section is only 2.54" OD which is why you see a bulge. The post tube is being forced into a smaller size. The silver pipe is 2.5" OD with the same ID of the OEM MAF tube. So forget all pipe before that, I'm running about a foot of 2.35" ID pipe with the MAF sensor in it that then opens up into the post tube that's 2.7ish ID that then goes down into 2.6" (TB opening lip) then 2.48" (right at the butterfly plate and port matched into the manifold) of the TB.

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e1...ps578ca956.jpg

So if I at least replaced the foot of 2.35" ID silver pipe and OEM MAF section with 2.75" OD pipe, not only would it fit pretty well into the z1 post tube but it'd also lower the huge gap (2.35" to 2.7ish" now, to 2.63" to 2.7ish) I have right now.

Any updates?

you need custom 2.75" intakes asap, the MAF housing will be your big restriction.

Still looking for a tuner that doesn't charge an arm and a leg. I like a few but when I know a uprev license costs xxx and you tell you change double, it's not cool. I'd rather have you lie and tell me the tunes labor is more.

Where's a 2.75 OD MAF housing I can weld to 2.75" OD pipe? I know a place for subis up to like 4" OD pipe.

Do you KNOW the cost of an UpRev license?
I do, and I know it's retarded cheap... But you can't NOT pay the park up... So... Just gotta bite that pillow and bend over.

Yeah the IPS tuner I've known for 5 years and friends with. He charges $150 uprev, $100 to rent dyno from IPS because he doesn't 100% work there, just a stop by tuner, and $200 for him to dyno my car. If it takes a hour it's the same. If it takes 5 hours, it's the same. For me at least. All others he charges $250 to tune. Subis he doesn't have to charge for uprev!! I miss $350 tunes, or custom etunes for $80.

I do have one update. I haven't touched my mpg in a long time. Its normally 22-23. It's been a week or so since I put the parts on and I've been driving everywhere!! Work, 3hr trips, etc etc. I do 75-80 on the highway. I've got maybe 600 miles so far and this has happened...it's gone way up.

I know uprev sells the weld in MAF flange but not pre welded to a pipe. so you would have to find a local fabricator to make the intakes for you.

25, that's awesome!

That's sucks about your tuner good luck with it, I did see a few 2.75 slip in Maf housings but I don't remember any weld in tubes

Cool, thanks! Ill check now.

Lol a fabricator. You don't know my build thread do you?

That wasn't meant to be arrogant or anything! I just love DIY. Check my thread.

I just need the flange or a good section that's several inches. Where did you see anything?

Look up vmptuning and treadstone performance

For tuning or parts? Floridas a little far for tuning and I just got both flanges and pipe for 2.75" OD. We'll see what we see now.

Yes was for parts lol but glad you got them cant wait to see your final results

Nah, you can make the trip, and while you are down here you can drop off my lower mani :bowrofl:

dont tempt me. i might have to go to at least Z1 if i dont get a responce asap from around here.

For a minute i thought you were going to tell us how you really feel.. good luck with finding a shop it is frustratingly difficult at times

While I completely agree with your frustration, I have to say that the $200/hr is almost certainly more than just a labor rate. Just a quick search of the internets for used dynos show prices from $20k to $40k, which means new ones are probably considerably more. That $200/hr is probably more like $50/hr labor and $150/hr dyno time so the shop can get a return on their investment.

Also have you checked into Dynosty in Louisville, KY. No personal experience with them but have heard decent reviews.

Was that 700 including the Uprev license, or on top of it? I had always assumed that it was going to be 500 for the Uprev, and ~200 for a tune.

I already have uprev tuner, so we'll see where that gets me.

Syno. I'm going through Motion Lab 7.5 hours away from you in Charlotte NC. Iirc Adam told me it's like 450/475 flat rate for a turbo tune not sure if they'll cut you something sweeter being NA. When I heard that cost I about $hi+ coming from dynosty at 150$/hr. Your other option would be Smokey's there in Cleveland! They have tuned two or three 370's I've seen on their Facebook so they might be somewhat familiar with them by now

You lost a motor right? Dynosty?

Checking smokeys now. $525, not bad! I'll call tomorrow. And actually Akron. A block from my mortgage company and old tattoo shop!

Yes. I lost my motor on their dyno. No signs of improper installation of anything on my end. No Hydrolock no bull$hit. just a dead motor and pat on the shoulder. I have no way of looking at graphs or data logs to see what may have even caused it at this point, but the general consensus from my knowledge, my mechanic and members of the forum it was pre ignition. 525 for a tune I didn't feel was too bad myself and I would've taken my car there but being that its also FI and when I had asked them about tuning my car they were a relatively brand new shop to my knowledge I decided against it. but that's been a year and several cars(for them) ago.

Scott, normally we don't respond to situations like this, but your last email to us was out of line (as well as some other things you have posted). I have to say this is probably the first time that someone who isn't even a customer of ours has taken issue with the quality of the work we perform and the services we provide.

So just the clear up any confusion that comes from a one sided story, here is our emails so far:

Scott : 07/15/2014 7:14am
"hi,
i need a tune for a 13 370z. im NA with a new CAI that will need the MAF scaled. i tune subis but i dont feel like buying the uprev tuner pack as im tired of messing with my own stuff and ive never done a VVEL before. i see you charge $200 an hour plus im sure there is something for the license fee. i am wondering if you could work out some kind of deal with me though. im trying to show the community what certain NA mods will get people. Im porting the lower and upper manifold and the throttle bodies with the butterfly plate shaft profiled. also since the TB\'s are bigger im going from the OEM 2.35\" MAF size up to 2.63\". im buying peoples OEM stuff and having the work done with a core return. after the tune is complete id like to pop off parts to show a before and after type of thing. if youre not interested and will charge the full $200 a hour then its not worth it to me. i have a before dyno at a local shop and ill just get tuned by you guys and drive back to show a before and after on the original dyno. But as you can tell thats not very scientific as ive added 4 new parts and tune so only way for people to duplicate is to do everything i did.
Thanks
Scott

Our response: 07/15/2014 1:12pm:
Hello Scott,
The standard dyno rate of $200 would apply to a service such as this.
The Uprev dyno license is $300 for the basic reflash license.
Tuning an NA setup will typically take about 2 hours so figure on about $400 in dyno time for a full tune.
If we can help you out please let us know

Scott: 07/15/14 6:49pm:
Erik thanks for the reply. But I have to say, like I said, I tune subis. I've worked with IPS motorsports for 5 years and a friend that taught me to tune and tunes nissans for them just left for California 2 days ago. I know the Uprev license is only $150. I don't see why you guys are doubling the price. I'd feel better if you told me the labor was more. You be upset if I charged you double for 2x4's to build you a house when you could just go Home Depot and buy them yourself right? My total at IPS would of been $450 if he didn't just leave ($150 license, $100 dyno rental, $200 to tune) but that's for me, everyone else was $500 all day everyday. $700 isn't out of this world but its a lot more than I wanted plus you guys are 8hrs away so you'll have to do something to earn my business. I've seen on the forums you guys advertise $525 as a sale, that'd be worth it I guess if Vince is really as good as I've read. Again I'm coming from 8hrs away, I can look else where if need be.
Scott
Sent from my iPhone

Our response: 07/16/14 10:58am:
I understand where you are coming from Scott. I don't think we are a good fit for what you need.
Best of luck with the testing.
Thanks,

Scott: 07/16/14 11:05am
So you can't honor a deal at $525 you did for others just a few weeks ago? My one thread alone has 9,600 views of people waiting to see a NA Z make more power. If I owned a business I'd think that'd be worth just $175 to reach out to a lot more people as I'll brag when I'm done giving you guys props. Maybe you could run this by Vince so he could have a say? I'm only trying to support my community and I'd hope you'd want to also.
Thanks
Scott
Sent from my iPad

Our response: 07/16/2014 3:58pm
​I spoke to Vince who is the owner here and does all of the Uprev tuning and he told me he is very specific with when he runs that special and he is not willing to extend it as we ran it for an extra month already in the spring due to the overwhelming response.
​Again, best of luck with your testing!

Scott: 07/16/14 9:51pm
That's fine. I will be ranting about this on the forums though. I can promise at least one person will agree with me though and find a new shop if they had you in mind. Even if its only one person out of a million that's worth it to me as you guys couldn't come off your high horse for $175, you just lost another persons tune money. You guys aren't tuning any better than any other shop but you post STD number to make people think so. Over $700 is a complete rip off! I hope selling tunes at that price works for you since I can guarantee you'd sell more and make more if you were lower in price as it'd bring more people in. As you said, you had a "overwhelming response." You must like not being as busy the rest of the year.
Sent from my iPad

Our response: 07/17/2014 9:27am
To be quite Frank with you it is not over $175. It is over your attitude and the way you have spoken to us over the course of this conversation that has made us not want to work with you. If you had been as polite in return as I have been to you and had not acted like you know everything this conversation would likely have turned out differently.
Our track record online an customer reviews speak to our tunes, how happy our customers are, and how busy we remain 12 months out of the year.
Best of luck in your endeavors.

ill try to address some of the "issues" that you have, i don't have time for all of them:

1. uprev license price: their retail price on that is $300. that is what we charge, and that is what it has been for along time. The $150 cost of the license is incorrect, however that was a deal they offered at one time several years ago at sema if you bought 20+ licenses at once. They did this so they could help raise more money to grow their business and develop products. That is no longer the cost of a license, not that that is any of your business. If someone does have some left over licenses from several years ago that they still have not used, and wants to sell them at a discounted rate, thats their choice. We however blew through those licenses in a matter of weeks.

2. we cant honor the $525 special: Its a limited time offer.That's what makes a sale special. 1 time a year, every year, usually when the nice weather hits, we offer a discounted package price for NA tunes on VQ's. We do this because a lot of owners in our area put them away for the winter, and it gets people excited to bring them back out and modify them. Its always an overwhelming success and a great way to start off the "busy" season before all the car shows start, and before race season starts (we are more time starved after they begin , not only from the amount of work we have, but also we have sponsored and provided track support for some vehicles in formula d for the last 3 years) Regardless, its a sale, by nature it only lasts for a short period of time. You cant go to walmart today and demand black friday pricing on tv's, they wont honor it.

3. Our pricing in general : our normal labor rate is $105 per hour for what you call hard labor "Most shops labor rates are $100 and that's for HARD labor. Like pulling a transmission for a clutch or motor work" Seems we are right in line there. And while yes, it is hard labor, its something any mechanic should be able to do or at least attempt. Tuning is a different skill set and highly specialized, that pays a different wage (thats also why theres not thousands of them between here and ohio). Our 2wd dyno tuning rate is $200 per hour, our awd tuning rate is $225 per hour. (we have both a 2wd dynojet and an awd mustang dyno".
Our rates are very competitive with our market place, we usually have a 3-4 week wait this time of year for new appointments. While we appreciate your input on how to run our business, we are and have been growing over the last 10 years (we now have 11 FT employees and a 25000 sqft shop), and we are doing just fine. And yes the equipment cost is part of the reason for the labor being different. The equipment is a big investment. Notice that last word "investment". When we bought our first dyno several years ago the market wasn't saturated with used dynos from closed and unsuccessful shops, so we bought new. And we charge what we charge, it seems to work just fine. So we see no need to change that.
Another factor that may be skewing your perception of us is where you our from. The cost of living is significantly lower in columbus ohio. Not that case in our area. Just check the housing market figures : Columbus Home Prices and Home Values - Zillow average home price <100k where we are : Montgomery County Home Prices and Home Values - Zillow literally 2.5x more expensive in our area. Perhaps if we went somewhere that was cheaper we could lower the prices, but again, we are competitive in our market (which we define as eastern PA, NJ and NY, where most of our customers come from.

4. i cant drive 8 hours for full price: that's ok, i wouldnt drive that far for something i claim to be very easy to do, and also able to do myself. again we wish you luck with whomever you use. However several people have driven further the same service you are asking for, they did so because they felt we were the best choice for their car, not the cheapest. We have customers from ohio, western pa, west virginia, northern new york, massachusetts, hell even canada (sup @galeforce !) Some of our customers drive several hours for normal service like exhaust work, or alignments. Hell, even @ak370 the owner of this whole forum made a several hour trip from Atlantic city to get his car aligned. Where we are located only seems to be a problem for you, not us.

Just an observation to think about: you mentioned your old tattoo shop.
A new artist starting out, who is new at his craft, will generally offer tattoos at a price point that is cheaper than a well established artist. They will do that to get some new business in and get people talking, and hopefully get some referrals. An established artist in that industry can charge as high as $200 a hour, and they have waiting lists that go on for months. Why? The guy who just started does the same thing right?
Like Erik, had mentioned, we are not interested in working with you regardless at this point, and i cant see why any professional in this industry would after you said "Why the **** do you think you're worth over $200 an hour to punch buttons?"
That statement is not only insulting to the 11 FT employees here at R/T, but to everyone in this great industry who takes pride in their job and occupation.
Again, best of luck to you in finding a tuner that fits your budget and geographical constraints.

I don't blame them for not wanting to do business with you. Your arrogance in the emails is incredibly juvenile. If you don't like their pricing then just go ahead and move on to another shop. You would be surprised how many customers they probably have who aren't members on any forum, so you threatening to ruin their reputation isn't getting anywhere except making you look like a complete jack@ss.

This is from someone who hasn't even been to R/T.

"$700 isn't out of this world but its a lot more than I wanted plus you guys are 8hrs away so you'll have to do something to earn my business."

This made me laugh. Would you like a manicure and for them to lay out the red carpet?