the crank shaft its harmonic balance?

SS_Firehawk · 01-20-2013, 08:16 PM

Just to clarify for what that rubber ring is for, it's to balance the pulley it's self. I wouldn't doubt it's to assist N/V/H as well, but we all know our engine is not the silkiest around.

Kyle @ Stillen asked Nissan engineers about it on an old thread

"This is a harmonic dampener of sorts, on that point you're exactly right. But it's not to balance the engine, it's to balance the pulley ITSELF."

Trilitheum · 01-20-2013, 09:03 PM

Just to add some more data into the debate, here is the US patent for a plastic hub torsional harmonic damper which has some good graphs that illustrate the effect on crankshaft twist in degrees vs engine RPM for various damper configurations including no damper.

Even if the engine is perfectly balanced there will always be torsional pulses which can and do form harmonic modes as a result of the discrete, not continuous combustion pulses (each cylinder firing in turn). Balancing the entire rotating assembly will not stop rotational twist of the shaft from the power pulse as each cylinder fires. It will stop out of axis oscillation.

The pulley being made out of cast iron is also on purpose, cast iron has one of the highest dampening capacities (google cast iron damping) of any metal.

If you don't want to read the whole document look at Figure 2 to see the effect on torrosional vibration via a typical damper (construction shown in Figure 1)

SS_Firehawk · 01-20-2013, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trilitheum

Just to add some more data into the debate, here is the US patent for a plastic hub torsional harmonic damper which has some good graphs that illustrate the effect on crankshaft twist in degrees vs engine RPM for various damper configurations including no damper.

Even if the engine is perfectly balanced there will always be torsional pulses which can and do form harmonic modes as a result of the discrete, not continuous combustion pulses (each cylinder firing in turn). Balancing the entire rotating assembly will not stop rotational twist of the shaft from the power pulse as each cylinder fires. It will stop out of axis oscillation.

The pulley being made out of cast iron is also on purpose, cast iron has one of the highest dampening capacities (google cast iron damping) of any metal.

If you don't want to read the whole document look at Figure 2 to see the effect on torrosional vibration via a typical damper (construction shown in Figure 1)

Good info. It's the reason why I used the word mitigate. But was als curious about why iron is used and was thinking that in the back of my head.

Red__Zed · 01-20-2013, 10:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Don't put words in my mouth. Aftermarket pulley's have not shown to be a catalyst of engine failure for our specific engine.

Of course not. This isn't a 'grenade the engine in 15K miles' sort of issue. It will be extremely subtle and dependent on driving style. The resonance range is probably <500rpms.

Quote:

The stock pulley is not a harmonic dampener to remove potential damaging frequencies.

source?

There's no question that the stock pulley gives the complete system a lower Q factor than any of the aftermarket pulleys available. Cast iron and rubber are unquestionably more efficient at translating vibration to thermal energy. Hysteresis loss is far higher in an iron/rubber assembly, vs an aluminum one.

Quote:

Torsional effects are mitigated by balancing the entire rotating assembly and adding counterweights to the crank. No external balancing was necessary.

The internal balance you describe is insufficient to completely mitigate the need for the damping we are discussion.

I'd love to see a source for the bolded part.

Quote:

Engineers that work on designing and manufacturing factory engines have advanced engineering to the point where in most cases, external balancing and/or harmonic dampeners aren't necessary.

external balancing is not the same thing, and it is more or less impossible to completely eliminate the need for an external damper while still achieving the reliability levels expected from modern cars.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Just to clarify for what that rubber ring is for, it's to balance the pulley it's self. I wouldn't doubt it's to assist N/V/H as well, but we all know our engine is not the silkiest around.

you keep saying this as a fact...I'd imagine it would be hard to determine this just by looking at it...

Quote:

Kyle @ Stillen asked Nissan engineers about it on an old thread

"This is a harmonic dampener of sorts, on that point you're exactly right. But it's not to balance the engine, it's to balance the pulley ITSELF."

link? preferably with something other than a vendor backing the claim.

I'd be confused as to why a pulley needed a "harmonic dampener of sorts"

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

You haven't seen the size of it to fully understand. It will rot out well before the engine breaks. Is the motor going to explode when that happens? I'm pretty sure it won't. I'll be surprised if it lasts 15k miles before it rots.

The rubber looks to be intact on all the high-mileage Z's I've seen. There's actually a lot of effort put into finding good materials to use in these applications.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Maybe you should have read the original thread, and if we have a harmonic balancer, damper, dampened pulley, whatever name you want to give it, wouldn't you see one on the car? Look at the crank pulley, remove the damn thing and look at it, there is nothing about it that dampens harmonics. It keeps the motor from dropping revs too fast, just like the stock flywheel in an attempt to keep drivability in tact.

Serious question--do you have any background that makes you qualified to discuss resonance? I'm curious what you are basing the bolded portion on. It would be quite impressive to be able to look at that component and visually determine that it did not serve any purpose in damping vibration.

Quote:

Data is in the numbers. Name or show one, just a single VQ37VHR motor that had catastrophic failure that was absolutely, without a fraction of a doubt caused by an aftermarket crank pulley that was installed correctly. Do you really think I would come into a debate and not do my homework on why you argue against light weight pulleys? Only a fool debates without research. Show me concrete evidence. BTW, I've read both links before you posted them a while ago. There is no talk of an undampened crank pulley with the exception of low RPM V8's.

The lack of directly linked catastrophic failures really doesn't show much. Most folks don't drive their Z's much, and the effects of mild, occasional impacts will manifest themselves slowly.

I absolutely agree with the first statement here. Data is in the numbers. Would be fantastic if a pulley vendor gave us a graph of the frequency response of the crankshaft with each pulley installed. THAT would tell you something.

Quote:

I reckon your the one that needs to do some more reading before you blast my posts. This isn't the 90's anymore, engine's evolve.

Engines have evolved, but the physics behind resonance haven't.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Trilitheum

Just to add some more data into the debate, here is the US patent for a plastic hub torsional harmonic damper which has some good graphs that illustrate the effect on crankshaft twist in degrees vs engine RPM for various damper configurations including no damper.

Even if the engine is perfectly balanced there will always be torsional pulses which can and do form harmonic modes as a result of the discrete, not continuous combustion pulses (each cylinder firing in turn). Balancing the entire rotating assembly will not stop rotational twist of the shaft from the power pulse as each cylinder fires. It will stop out of axis oscillation.

The pulley being made out of cast iron is also on purpose, cast iron has one of the highest dampening capacities (google cast iron damping) of any metal.

If you don't want to read the whole document look at Figure 2 to see the effect on torrosional vibration via a typical damper (construction shown in Figure 1)

Cool link. Pretty crazy to look at old patents and realize how much of the work was done through trial and error.

SS_Firehawk · 01-21-2013, 02:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Of course not. This isn't a 'grenade the engine in 15K miles' sort of issue. It will be extremely subtle and dependent on driving style. The resonance range is probably <500rpms.

source?

There's no question that the stock pulley gives the complete system a lower Q factor than any of the aftermarket pulleys available. Cast iron and rubber are unquestionably more efficient at translating vibration to thermal energy. Hysteresis loss is far higher in an iron/rubber assembly, vs an aluminum one.

The internal balance you describe is insufficient to completely mitigate the need for the damping we are discussion.

I'd love to see a source for the bolded part.

external balancing is not the same thing, and it is more or less impossible to completely eliminate the need for an external damper while still achieving the reliability levels expected from modern cars.

you keep saying this as a fact...I'd imagine it would be hard to determine this just by looking at it...

link? preferably with something other than a vendor backing the claim.

I'd be confused as to why a pulley needed a "harmonic dampener of sorts"

The rubber looks to be intact on all the high-mileage Z's I've seen. There's actually a lot of effort put into finding good materials to use in these applications.

Serious question--do you have any background that makes you qualified to discuss resonance? I'm curious what you are basing the bolded portion on. It would be quite impressive to be able to look at that component and visually determine that it did not serve any purpose in damping vibration.

The lack of directly linked catastrophic failures really doesn't show much. Most folks don't drive their Z's much, and the effects of mild, occasional impacts will manifest themselves slowly.

I absolutely agree with the first statement here. Data is in the numbers. Would be fantastic if a pulley vendor gave us a graph of the frequency response of the crankshaft with each pulley installed. THAT would tell you something.

Engines have evolved, but the physics behind resonance haven't.

Cool link. Pretty crazy to look at old patents and realize how much of the work was done through trial and error.

Here is the issue regarding arguing my points. There isn't an aftermarket company on the planet that has the R&D of a car manufacturer. Due to the nature of the industry, Most Engineers that design cars are not going to expound in much detail, if at all on why they may have done things a certain way. There is plenty of research on resonance, torsion, N/V/H, and negative harmonics because it's already a known. Most of my findings are from manufacturers, but also reading about the issue at hand. I haven't read a single cited source that has said specifically, the way our pulley was designed, that it is a dampener of potentially destructive harmonics. Every description and engineering paper I read shows a rubber dampener that is encased with the rubber set vertical, or viscous. Ours is horizontal to the motor and only about 5mm thick. It looks like it's preventing all the accessories from vibrating or introducing more N/V/H to the crank as opposed to removing bad harmonics from the engine itself.

Every car company is going to say, leave your engine alone and it will be fine. Every aftermarket company that makes parts for said manufacturer is going to say, "Buy this and it will be even better" Who do you believe? Forums like this is feedback from everyone. I said it before, take everything you read in here with a grain of salt. Yes, even everything I say and argue about, which I admittedly do a lot sometimes. I'm not out to convince the World, but there are always two sides to the story. Obviously, it's difficult to go wrong with a stock crank pulley. I 100% agree. I also believe a well engineered aftermarket crank pulley can be safe to use. Some do not. People ask why, we say what we think, preferably have relevant source material to back our findings. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Is the Bible indisputable fact? Do you believe every animal floated around Noah's ARK for months and the entire Earth flooded?

I used the word mitigate because regardless of internal or external balancing, spin a motor fast enough and even the best motors can grenade to harmonics. If Nissan plans on spinning the VQ to 9-10,000 rpm or higher, I'm pretty sure we would see a different crank pulley, maybe to a true dampener.

FYI, I never stated my finding's as absolute facts. I listed my arguments to the topic.

Regarding my statement about external balancing not being necessary, it is absolutely true for some smaller displacement motors. I think the VQ fits in this category, but there is room for argument there.

Lastly, and I'm repeating myself, DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK AND COME UP WITH YOUR OWN CONCLUSION!!! I'm tired of people giving recommendations like it's fact and not letting them decide for themselves by only giving them one side of the argument.

Red__Zed · 01-21-2013, 02:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Here is the issue regarding arguing my points. There isn't an aftermarket company on the planet that has the R&D of a car manufacturer. Due to the nature of the industry, Most Engineers that design cars are not going to expound in much detail, if at all on why they may have done things a certain way. There is plenty of research on resonance, torsion, N/V/H, and negative harmonics because it's already a known. Most of my findings are from manufacturers, but also reading about the issue at hand. I haven't read a single cited source that has said specifically, the way our pulley was designed, that it is a dampener of potentially destructive harmonics. Every description and engineering paper I read shows a rubber dampener that is encased with the rubber set vertical. Ours is vertical and only about 5mm thick. It looks like it's preventing all the accessories from vibrating or introducing more N/V/H to the crank as opposed to removing bad harmonics from the engine itself.

How do you determine that from looking at it?

Quote:

Every car company is going to say, leave your engine alone and it will be fine. Every aftermarket company that makes parts for said manufacturer is going to say, "Buy this and it will be even better" Who do you believe? Forums like this is feedback from everyone. I said it before, take everything you read in here with a grain of salt. Yes, even everything I say and argue about, which I admittedly do a lot sometimes. I'm not out to convince the World, but there are always two sides to the story. Obviously, it's difficult to go wrong with a stock crank pulley. I 100% agree. I also believe a well engineered aftermarket crank pulley can be safe to use. Some do not. People ask why, we say what we think, preferably have relevant source material to back our findings. Could I be wrong? Absolutely. Is the Bible indisputable fact? Do you believe every animal floated around Noah's ARK for months and the entire Earth flooded?

wat?

Quote:

I used the word mitigate because regardless of internal or external balancing, spin a motor fast enough and even the best motors can grenade to harmonics. If Nissan plans on spinning the VQ to 9-10,000 rpm or higher, I'm pretty sure we would see a different crank pulley, maybe to a true dampener.

We are not discussing balancing.

Quote:

FYI, I never stated my finding's as absolute facts. I listed my arguments to the topic.

Got it. I guess I am misreading these posts then:

Quote:

Look at the crank pulley, remove the damn thing and look at it, there is nothing about it that dampens harmonics. It keeps the motor from dropping revs too fast, just like the stock flywheel in an attempt to keep drivability in tact.

Quote:

You haven't seen the size of it to fully understand. It will rot out well before the engine breaks. Is the motor going to explode when that happens? I'm pretty sure it won't. I'll be surprised if it lasts 15k miles before it rots.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Just to clarify for what that rubber ring is for, it's to balance the pulley it's self. I wouldn't doubt it's to assist N/V/H as well, but we all know our engine is not the silkiest around.

Kyle @ Stillen asked Nissan engineers about it on an old thread

"This is a harmonic dampener of sorts, on that point you're exactly right. But it's not to balance the engine, it's to balance the pulley ITSELF."

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

Don't put words in my mouth. Aftermarket pulley's have not shown to be a catalyst of engine failure for our specific engine.

The stock pulley is not a harmonic dampener to remove potential damaging frequencies.

The stock pulley with the rubber dampening sandwiched between the cast iron pieces is for N/V/H and balancing of the pulley it's self. The pulley is also balanced afterward by tapping.

Torsional effects are mitigated by balancing the entire rotating assembly and adding counterweights to the crank. No external balancing was necessary.

Engineers that work on designing and manufacturing factory engines have advanced engineering to the point where in most cases, external balancing and/or harmonic dampeners aren't necessary.

I don't take your quotes out of context, please award me the same.

Dear lord please show me the engineers that have figured out how to remove the harmonics. For some reason they still haven't filed a patent, and I need to beat them to it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by SS_Firehawk

That damper piece people think dampens vibration is a rubber gasket...that's it. It's made out of iron and heavy, not to magically remove non-existent super dangerous vibrations that emanate from our engine. It's the same reason they made the fluwheel a dual mass, to smooth things out, but it also saps engine response (and power). There aren't a lot of newer vehicles or engine designs that require an external damping mechanism. It's just a pulley. Even the stock piece is called a crank pulley. But alas, I'm wasting my breath to half the forum

"non-existent super dangerous vibrations"...Please explain this one.

Quote:

Regarding my statement about external balancing not being necessary, it is absolutely true for some smaller displacement motors. I think the VQ fits in this category, but there is room for argument there.

Still not discussing balancing.

Quote:

Lastly, and I'm repeating myself, DO YOUR OWN HOMEWORK AND COME UP WITH YOUR OWN CONCLUSION!!! I'm tired of people giving recommendations like it's fact and not letting them decide for themselves by only giving them one side of the argument.

I guess you failed to read the post you replied to. Shocker.

01-20-2013, 08:16 PM	#1 (permalink)
SS_Firehawk A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2011 Location: Tampa Posts: 4,142 Drives: 13' Magma Red Nismo Rep Power: 7336	Just to clarify for what that rubber ring is for, it's to balance the pulley it's self. I wouldn't doubt it's to assist N/V/H as well, but we all know our engine is not the silkiest around. Kyle @ Stillen asked Nissan engineers about it on an old thread "This is a harmonic dampener of sorts, on that point you're exactly right. But it's not to balance the engine, it's to balance the pulley ITSELF." __________________ Old Car:GTM TSC'd 550whp / 410lbft tq @ 11.88PSI New Car: Under Construction

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