HFC confusion....

Red__Zed · 07-06-2011, 06:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Waizzz

Oh that sucks,

Sorry to hear that man, that is exactly why I would never bother trying to go FI in Cali.

Cali is nice because of the carb stuff. Everything is pretty clearly defined.

Waiz · 07-06-2011, 06:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Cali is nice because of the carb stuff. Everything is pretty clearly defined.

Considering how bad the air quality is here I don't consider it over-reaching.

I just know better than to go with an FI setup here, hell I just got pulled over/ticketed for tint but thankfully he didn't notice my HFC's

wstar · 07-06-2011, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

and I don't blame them. They face a $25,000 EPA fine for installing them.

Quote:

Originally Posted by vividracing

I'm surprised nobody else mentioned this. Unless emissions equipment is faulty or defective, it's illegal to mess with it.

The OP is in TX. As far as local emissions regulations go, even in the big cities with stricter rules, installing aftermarket HFCs (which are emissions functional, not just some empty shell) is perfectly fine.

As far as the feds go: the EPA regs are about improper catalytic convertors. You can install aftermarket converters and still be in compliance with the EPA. They just have to be correct for the car in question and be fully functional, and carry an EPA designation on them. I think it's safe to assume major manufacturers aren't churning out non-compliant HFCs, because even *selling* such an HFC is worth a $25K fine per unit to the mfg, if you go read the EPA docs. If in doubt, I guess you could ask the mfg?

Either way, HFCs are a common upgrade performed by lots of shops all over Houston, and you can get a state inspection with them just fine (and I don't mean with some under the table ******** - they'll pass anywhere in the state randomly).

fuct · 07-07-2011, 12:36 PM

they get away with it by putting

"FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY"

Red__Zed · 07-07-2011, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

The OP is in TX. As far as local emissions regulations go, even in the big cities with stricter rules, installing aftermarket HFCs (which are emissions functional, not just some empty shell) is perfectly fine.

As far as the feds go: the EPA regs are about improper catalytic convertors. You can install aftermarket converters and still be in compliance with the EPA. They just have to be correct for the car in question and be fully functional, and carry an EPA designation on them. I think it's safe to assume major manufacturers aren't churning out non-compliant HFCs, because even *selling* such an HFC is worth a $25K fine per unit to the mfg, if you go read the EPA docs. If in doubt, I guess you could ask the mfg?

Either way, HFCs are a common upgrade performed by lots of shops all over Houston, and you can get a state inspection with them just fine (and I don't mean with some under the table ******** - they'll pass anywhere in the state randomly).

Except the fine has nothing to do with actual emissions, and everything to do with removing functional equipment.

wstar · 07-07-2011, 12:58 PM

370Z/G37 High Flow Catalytic Converters - Nissan 370Z/Infiniti G37 - Berk Technology

^ There's Berk's blurb on their HFCs for our cars. It's street legal other than in Cali.

Red__Zed · 07-07-2011, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

370Z/G37 High Flow Catalytic Converters - Nissan 370Z/Infiniti G37 - Berk Technology

^ There's Berk's blurb on their HFCs for our cars. It's street legal other than in Cali.

First, never trust manufacturer claims. The berks failed VA Inspection for me.

Second, that has nothing to do with the fact that it is ILLEGAL to remove or replace functional factory emmissions equipment, even if it is with something equivalent.

Do people get away with it? Sure. But I don't blame a shop for refusing the work.

Now of course... If you factory cats got damaged somehow...

wstar · 07-07-2011, 01:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Except the fine has nothing to do with actual emissions, and everything to do with removing functional equipment.

And this part is completely un-enforceable. It's not hard to "accidentally" cause your cats to malfunction and need replacement. Have you ever heard of this being enforced on anyone, ever (other than California)?

Red__Zed · 07-07-2011, 01:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

And this part is completely un-enforceable. It's not hard to "accidentally" cause your cats to malfunction and need replacement. Have you ever heard of this being enforced on anyone, ever (other than California)?

....yes?

wstar · 07-07-2011, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

First, never trust manufacturer claims. The berks failed VA Inspection for me.

If VA has some specific state-level rules, maybe. Or maybe the inspection shop just screwed you? Berk isn't claiming off-road-use-only on these, and I can't imagine they've been around doing as much as business as they are if they're risking $25K fine per item for selling them for street use. The easy way to tell if the mfg's claims are correct is to look for the code number on the cat itself, as stipulated by the EPA rules. I never bothered to look at mine ~2+ years ago, I could try with a mirror later.

wstar · 07-07-2011, 01:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

....yes?

So? Where and when did the EPA fine someone for removing a functional cat to replace it with another functional, legal cat, outside of some super-strict state enforcement regime like Cali?

Red__Zed · 07-07-2011, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

So? Where and when did the EPA fine someone for removing a functional cat to replace it with another functional, legal cat, outside of some super-strict state enforcement regime like Cali?

It's all over nasioc. Guys get fined for moving to hf catted downpipes regularly. My friend got a 10k fine for his dp.

Red__Zed · 07-07-2011, 01:49 PM

I also don't know of a single EPA fine handed out in cali. It's usually the rest of the country where we get them.

wstar · 07-07-2011, 02:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

It's all over nasioc. Guys get fined for moving to hf catted downpipes regularly. My friend got a 10k fine for his dp.

I've tried searching around there, but I haven't really turned up anything yet, have a link? Mostly I see their FAQ stuff, which again seems to say you're generally fine so long as you don't go cat-less. It was interesting to see some guys there noticing that Utah is getting as bad as Cali on inspections now.

vividracing · 07-07-2011, 03:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Red__Zed

Except the fine has nothing to do with actual emissions, and everything to do with removing functional equipment.

Correct. There's always the option of saying "Well, Mr. EPA... Prove that my emissions equipment WASN'T defective. Oh, of course I don't still have it. I told the shop to recycle it."

The chances of an end user being hassled by the EPA over HFCs is so low it's pretty much never going to happen. The EPA hassling shops that are removing fully functioning emissions equipment is much more likely.

Back on topic... If the OP is in TX, just hit up a sketchy exhaust shop. You can usually find them in the same areas that have the used tire shops run by Mexicans.

07-07-2011, 12:58 PM	#36 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3594	370Z/G37 High Flow Catalytic Converters - Nissan 370Z/Infiniti G37 - Berk Technology ^ There's Berk's blurb on their HFCs for our cars. It's street legal other than in Cali. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

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07-07-2011, 12:36 PM	#34 (permalink)
fuct A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: Sugar Land Posts: 3,692 Drives: 97' Ranger :) Rep Power: 23	they get away with it by putting "FOR OFF ROAD USE ONLY"

07-07-2011, 01:49 PM	#43 (permalink)
Red__Zed A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: window seat Posts: 28,940 Drives: Mostly on two wheels Rep Power: 119	I also don't know of a single EPA fine handed out in cali. It's usually the rest of the country where we get them.