Sam do you think the larger manifold that comes with the Stillen kit will hinder the VVEL's operation and performance in general? Back in the previous gen Z's, those upgrading to FI manifolds needed cams to get that extra air into the engines efficiently I believe

I would not call it ripping apart… I think technical questions and concerns should be welcomed any time .

Wouldn't you rather somebody bring up the mass air flow sensors placement issue before you invest in a supercharged kit with air temp compensation that has been completely thrown out the window ?

Sam

As my oldest says in this kind of an instance. "That's Tight!"

I am comparing in my head between this and the Stillen and I am planning on installing myself and I am just not commfortable in replacing the intake. Its a little too radical fopr my tastes and I dont live in a area that has HOT weather. Its pretty moderate here in Denver year around so I am not so concerned with air temps.

ehheeemm, COOOUGGH*WHIPPLE*COOOUOUGH


:stirthepot:


Asked this same question in the Stillen post earlier...

Sam

Let me take my GTM hat off for a minute.

I as a Tuner have some serious concerns about what stillen did with their manifold disghn and yes it will hinder the performance and drivability of the car in general.

issue # 1

The mass air flow sensors contains the air temp sensors so by placing the sensors on the hot side of the blower and then cooling the air inside the manifold the ecu is not getting the right info and will cause a lot counter actions from the ecu due to the extreme air inlet temp it seeing, if you ever touch the hot side on a vortck blower you will literally burn you hand . these ecu are very advanced and this disghn will cause a lot of issue .

issue # 2

The factory ecu uses two different inputs form the mass air flow sensors to control the fuel trim on bank one and bank two and literally there is separate maps for each bank when it comes to controlling the fuel, these fuel maps are not the same meaning the engineers at nissan knew that the amount of air entering each bank will be different and therefor every bank uses it own majoring devise (mass air flow sensor on each bank)to control the air fuel ratio.
Now when having both sensors on the same tube reading the same voltage to the ecu...…i think the answer is clear.

Maybe stillen knows more about the VQ37VHR then Nissan them self .

It is clear to me that stillen rearranged the car around their supercharge kit without taking all the factors in.

Sam (without the GTM hat)

Regardless if you choose GTM, Stillen, or any other company, I'm sure the peeps from CONOC can pitch in and help on the install. We could just grab some beers and pick up the tools and take our time on the car.

And yes, air temps our the least of our worries up here in the Mile High City. :tup: The snow is my fear :(

Air temp compensation table look up is utilized at all time and will effect not only power outcome and knock control but also cold/hot start and could also lead to severe engine damage sense the ecu will lean out the the air fuel ratio as the air temps rises

Sam

can't wait to hear some responses from Stillen on all of this... I hope they have an answer... I don't even freakin know half of the things you guys have discussed lol, but doesn't sound great

I didn't mean to imply that the numbers were the be all end all. It's really going to be a function of performance, quality, and cost.

Doesn't surprise me that one vendor would talk down about another vendor's product based off a picture. Happens every day. Worth about 1 shiny penny to me. Products will reveal themselves all in good time. If product A is ****, people will not buy product A (all things being equal such as price)...

Well, if I ever learned anything in management, it's that the consumer will base his or her decision based on two of the following three qualities:

Cost
Performance
Quality

You can't have all three!

I don't know if that is necessarily the case. Sam commented on things only after i brought them up and others questioned them. Its not like he came on here posting bad things about the Stillen kit, only answering questions. I probably shouldn't have mentioned them, but i honestly was disappointed in the Stillen set up. With everything they talked about in the earlier thread, i was anxious to see there design, and had good visions of the kit in my head. First of the Lysholm unit, and then when they said V3, (while i'm not a fan of the Vortech units) i was still hopefull for some VERY clean piping running right out of the charger directly into TB's (positioned on the drivers side) about 6 inches away. Then i saw the pics. Not at all what i expected, and it raised more than a couple of questions both in function and form.

I was planning on keeping these to myself, but had a momentary lapse in judgment earlier and posted my true thoughts.

If Sam had HANDS ON experience with the kit, then I would have valued his opinion at 25 cents. He should have taken the high road.

The flaw in that famous line of thinking is the lack of timeline in the equation. On a long enough timeline, all 3 can usually be achieved through technological advancement.

the problem is that the quote is actually price, speed(of delivery), quality... choose any two.

performance can be lumped in with quality.

my 2 cents

You can have a "quality" product that does not perform as well as another product of inferior quality.

As much as I value Sam's take on the stillen kit it's the GTM release I'm waiting on how bout some info on that!

Interesting point. I welcome a technical conversation about the positives and negatives of each kit before I put down such a large chunk of money on either kit. Thanks, Sam.

I guess if you want to split hairs, he could've brought it up in the form of a question, like "How is Stillen going to account for the fact that the MAFs are taking readings before the intake charge is cooled?" since, yes, he doesn't have first-hand knowledge about the Stillen kit. However, it's absolutely fine to bring up the issue for discussion, hopefully with the Stillen guys sharing their perspective about this issue, since they do have first-hand knowledge about how everything will work in their kit.

Sure you can, if you have the money! ;)

No, because if you have the money cost is not a factor! ;)

Yes, that is the way it should be and it is for everyone best interest so you guys can make an informed decision.

Sam

And i would not even value your input for 1 shiny penny, Somebody asked a technical questions and i answerd it, that is what i do here .

You have a problem with my answer or you did not see the value in it then fine goahead and challenge it and explain to me how's having hands on experience on the stillen kit will have anything to do with the facts that I stated in regards to the air temp reading.

Sam

:wtf2:

sam don't worry about it; let the haters hate. The GTM kit is sounding very promising and im looking forward to one day putting this kit on my car. Thank you for taking the time and dedication to develop such a kit for the 370z community. The more competition the better it is for all of us 370z enthusiast.

:rofl2: Get on the GTM bandwagon or get rolled :rofl2:

Hater's hate is so overused. I don't hate GTM nor do I love Stillen. I like to see product's prove themselves. Grandstanding by one shop on a not even released product by another is just poor business practices.

But I guess I should flash one of these at you :nutswinger: and call it a day right? Or am I generalizing?

We all need to chill no vendor wars here please unless you are arguing over prices and who is going to be cheaper. We love all our vendors here and when the units are DONE we will make decisions individually as to which one we want to buy.

Sam, no amount of cross vendor fire will distract us from ragging you about getting the damn thing done ;) (I kid)

Now just to be sporting here is my question about the MAF placement between the kits, How come no one is setting the MAF sensors in a draw through setup so they can actually measure the volume of air entering the engine before it is compressed, and splicing the IAT wiring off to a manifold sensor to accurately measure the incoming air temperature? I restate my question of whether or not you were able to upgrade the MAP sensor to gauge the amount of pressure in the manifold, or by retaining a mostly stock setup do you plan to simply adjust the fuel tables and VE to go around the problem.

Oh and I do mean that unless you want to create vendor hate here everyone just needs to STFU

I have to disagree. I don't think it's grandstanding. Sam brought up what he feels is a problem with the design of Stillen's kit, specifically the location of the MAFS. Now if there's something that Stillen has done to address this that outside observers can't see, there's nothing wrong with them clarifying it, to ease concerns potential buyers may have. And although early adopters are always at risk of being guinea pigs for things that go wrong, it's always better to address as many potential concerns as possible beforehand.

:drama: Just in time!

I didnt bother to read most of these posts. I am not a fan of Stillen so dont put fanboy **** on me. But will you SHUT UP when it comes to bashing on other kits in a certain sponsors thread? All it does is cause drama. This thread is to support GTM's SC kit for the 370z. In no way does STILLEN tie into this due to the title. So STFU and keep it GTM related. If you want drama start a new thread.

Sponsors----you bash another company in your thread. I wont buy from you being it seems you have nothing to do other than hate on other companies and it gives you a insecure look

Members---- you look like douche bags.

I always believe in the market. The market is where products are proven one way or another. If the problem is as bad as Sam claims here, then Stillen's testing will prove that out and 1 of 2 things will happen. They will release it anyway or redesign it. If they release it anyway, it will fail to be a successful product. The market will choose the winner.

I don't think any company should have to do tit for tat responses to questions by a competitor on a not yet released product. Let SAM deliver some actual data (which he doesn't have of course) showing a problem and then pull out the popcorn, sit back, and watch. Sam is not some impartial 3rd party here, he has profit motive.

IBTL


:drama:

Oh my God What Happened?

MMC ....I bet my Murcielago would smoke ur GTR

Easy to claim 3000 miles away.. About as easy to prove as Sam's claims on a not yet released kit (keeping this on topic) :icon23:

Thanks for the support on this and again a little bigger

We all need to STFU about the vendors

Put your money where your mouth is big boy. Just like you seem to post in this thread easily....take it to the track and prove your mouth is worthy as your typing.
Makes me pissed when people bash a paying sponsors thread. MMC racing?? (got nothing against him personally btw but making an example) hmmmm sounds like it should be a paying member huh? Keep the **** out of the thread if you dont like it. All I gotta say. *drops mic*

all right everyone End The Flame Throwing!
http://images51.fotki.com/v732/photo...n_topic-vi.jpg

:bowrofl::roflpuke2::bowrofl::roflpuke2: