GTM Supercharger Stage 1 w/ F.I. LTH

NYBladeZ · 09-29-2011, 06:57 PM

Interested to see how your number go with the Stillen Kit and LTH's. No one has stepped up to try a stage 2 GTM SC with LTH's and we haven't heard anything on VVEL being cracked anytime soon.

glory · 03-06-2012, 07:25 PM

Sorry to be reviving this old thread but I came across is it and I think I am missing something here.

My dilemma is here is why Dreamer is making less power with LTH's. I understand boost = back pressure so freeing up the exhaust (CBE +LTH) will lower the back pressure (and therefore the boost) and make it more efficient, but shouldn't he be making more power @8psi rather than less?

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.I. Inc.

...
Boost is back pressure. The stock exhaust is as restrictive as it gets. When you relieve back pressure in a force inducted application, you have a PSI drop off but you pick up torque and power.

Now it seems like this SC is capped @ 8 PSI. What that tells me is that no matter what you do to it, it cannot move enough volume to move more air than 8 PSI.
...

Now is it because the SC is capped @ 8psi that it can't achieve higher numbers or is it some VVEL thing holding it back?

Sorry, not trying to stir the pot just trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks

Mike@GTM · 03-06-2012, 08:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glory

Sorry to be reviving this old thread but I came across is it and I think I am missing something here.

My dilemma is here is why Dreamer is making less power with LTH's. I understand boost = back pressure so freeing up the exhaust (CBE +LTH) will lower the back pressure (and therefore the boost) and make it more efficient, but shouldn't he be making more power @8psi rather than less?

Now is it because the SC is capped @ 8psi that it can't achieve higher numbers or is it some VVEL thing holding it back?

Sorry, not trying to stir the pot just trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks

The Supercharger Unit itself is not capped at 8psi...our Stage 1.5 Supercharger Kit proves that.

The Stage 1 Supercharger as it was originally designed, needs a little bit of back-pressure from the exhaust to keep the compressor in its efficiency range. Once the exhaust back pressure is reduced too much, the compressor loses efficiency and therefore, makes less power.

If you are looking for more power than the Stage 1, but still want good mid-range torque, then check out the Stage 1.5: GTM Performance Engineering: Stage 1 Supercharger Upgrade Kit 500whp capable

F.I. Inc. · 03-07-2012, 09:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glory

Sorry to be reviving this old thread but I came across is it and I think I am missing something here.

My dilemma is here is why Dreamer is making less power with LTH's. I understand boost = back pressure so freeing up the exhaust (CBE +LTH) will lower the back pressure (and therefore the boost) and make it more efficient, but shouldn't he be making more power @8psi rather than less?

Now is it because the SC is capped @ 8psi that it can't achieve higher numbers or is it some VVEL thing holding it back?

Sorry, not trying to stir the pot just trying to wrap my head around this.

Thanks

Mike@GTM answered this well!

There is nothing wrong with our headers or exhaust. In an N/A application they have big gains across the board...

I do not want to stir the pot as well but the stage I kit is inefficient! I am glad to see GTM finally is making a bigger more efficient kit that can support less back pressure.

I do not think that our headers will fit with the stage 1.5 kit though. I have not seen the kit first hand but I have been told that with the new design, there is no room for our headers!

Thanks, Tony

Mike@GTM · 03-07-2012, 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by F.I. Inc.

Mike@GTM answered this well!

There is nothing wrong with our headers or exhaust. In an N/A application they have big gains across the board...

I do not want to stir the pot as well but the stage I kit is inefficient! I am glad to see GTM finally is making a bigger more efficient kit that can support less back pressure.

I do not think that our headers will fit with the stage 1.5 kit though. I have not seen the kit first hand but I have been told that with the new design, there is no room for our headers!

Thanks, Tony

Mmmm...I wouldn't call the Stage 1 "inefficient". See, there's always a trade off, as you should know. Bigger is not always better.

In fact, there are a lot of subtleties involved with designing a forced induction system. It's not as simple as just tossing a turbo or supercharger on a motor and getting good results. There is an thread on here that exemplifies what can happen with that mentality.

The Stage 1 kit (much like a small turbo), has superb mid-range torque for a centrifugal supercharger. The Stage 1.5 (like a mid sized turbo), gets to full song a little later than the Stage 1, but still quicker than Stage 2 (like a large turbo).

Each one of our stages has its place depending on what the end user is doing with their car. No one stage is going to be the best for every circumstance. Flatly calling our Stage 1 inefficient just illustrates that not everyone fully understands how forced induction really works.

Nixlimited · 03-07-2012, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

Mmmm...I wouldn't call the Stage 1 "inefficient". See, there's always a trade off, as you should know. Bigger is not always better.

In fact, there are a lot of subtleties involved with designing a forced induction system. It's not as simple as just tossing a turbo or supercharger on a motor and getting good results. There is an thread on here that exemplifies what can happen with that mentality.

The Stage 1 kit (much like a small turbo), has superb mid-range torque for a centrifugal supercharger. The Stage 1.5 (like a mid sized turbo), gets to full song a little later than the Stage 1, but still quicker than Stage 2 (like a large turbo).

Each one of our stages has its place depending on what the end user is doing with their car. No one stage is going to be the best for every circumstance. Flatly calling our Stage 1 inefficient just illustrates that not everyone fully understands how forced induction really works.

If it's the same compressor wheel with a different, more efficient, housing on the stage 1.5, why is it taking longer to come online?

glory · 03-06-2012, 08:07 PM

Ah ok thanks Mike, forgot about the efficiency range. Makes sense now.

Thanks again

One_Quick_Z · 03-07-2012, 05:48 PM

But the question still remains with the stage 1.5 or 2 work with the LTH's?!?!?!?

DAN

Mike@GTM · 03-07-2012, 06:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One_Quick_Z

But the question still remains with the stage 1.5 or 2 work with the LTH's?!?!?!?

DAN

I don't know, I can only speculate. Someone is just going to have to give it a shot and report back with the results. That is the only way we are going to settle it once and for all.

SAM@GTM · 03-07-2012, 06:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One_Quick_Z

But the question still remains with the stage 1.5 or 2 work with the LTH's?!?!?!?

DAN

No it wont. And even if it does, Why would you do that, We are making Over 500 RWHP on stock exhausts and Stock cats.

Don't worry i get it Dan

Sam

F.I. Inc. · 03-08-2012, 09:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SAM@GTM

No it wont. And even if it does, Why would you do that, We are making Over 500 RWHP on stock exhausts and Stock cats.

Don't worry i get it Dan

Sam

Sam,

Running stock cats on a force inducted car for a long period of time is a bad idea unless the car came like that OEM. Do not get me wrong, I am not condoning taking smog devices off of cars specifically in California. Hats off to you guys for trying to make smog compliant kit! That will be huge so best of luck getting that.

Boost is back pressure as we all know. So in a nutshell you are saying the kit needs the back pressure from stock (restrictive exhaust components specifically stock cats) to keep the head unit in it's efficiency range! That means the kit is inefficient!

Why not make a Supercharger system that is efficient with a free flowing exhaust system and advertise it both ways? Make the most amount of power on the least amount of boost one way and also show what it does with in stock form. In the end, the free flowing exhaust will have much less wear and tear on the drive train and especially the engine!

Less heat, less friction and the parts will all last longer!

Tony

F.I. Inc. · 03-08-2012, 09:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by One_Quick_Z

But the question still remains with the stage 1.5 or 2 work with the LTH's?!?!?!?

DAN

Dan,

Apparently they will not fit from what I have been told. I tried working with GTM in the past to have a good fit for both of us. Sam fought me the entire way and started telling people our headers were making his Stage 1 Supercharger look bad (in so many words)! I told him years ago over the phone that the kit was inefficient! He told me I was stubborn and did not know what I was talking about.

(IMHO) all my headers did was expose a big flaw in the Stage I Supercharger kit. This is why he has come out with stage 1.5+ along with other reasons I am sure!

You know us and the level of integrity that we stand for! You know that you can call me anytime with questions...

Thanks, Tony

Jamaica · 03-07-2012, 06:51 PM

cwis...i told you!

XwChriswX · 03-07-2012, 07:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamaica@UAMotorsports

cwis...i told you!

Told me what?

glory · 03-07-2012, 09:15 PM

well i seem to have really brought this thread back to life. But I am glad good information is being passed around.

09-29-2011, 06:57 PM	#1 (permalink)
NYBladeZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: New York Posts: 2,158 Drives: Lotus Exige S Rep Power: 21	Interested to see how your number go with the Stillen Kit and LTH's. No one has stepped up to try a stage 2 GTM SC with LTH's and we haven't heard anything on VVEL being cracked anytime soon. __________________ 2009 Carbon Fiber/Red 370z aka Trish: Sports Package, Meisterschaft full catback, Fast Intentions Longtube Headers, Injen Long Tube Intakes, UpRev Tune: Sold 2008 Lotus Exige S Club Racer aka Bella, always leaves me smiling

03-07-2012, 05:48 PM	#8 (permalink)
One_Quick_Z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: May 2009 Location: Seneca Il Posts: 1,374 Drives: 10 Civic EX Sedan Rep Power: 220	But the question still remains with the stage 1.5 or 2 work with the LTH's?!?!?!? DAN __________________ -My BRZ with exhaust will decimate all if we overnight parts from Japan- 10 Civic EX Sedan- Current Daily

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03-06-2012, 08:07 PM	#7 (permalink)
glory Base Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 4 Drives: 04 ZX3 (For now) Rep Power: 14	Ah ok thanks Mike, forgot about the efficiency range. Makes sense now. Thanks again

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03-07-2012, 09:15 PM	#15 (permalink)
glory Base Member Join Date: Mar 2012 Location: Saskatchewan Posts: 4 Drives: 04 ZX3 (For now) Rep Power: 14	well i seem to have really brought this thread back to life. But I am glad good information is being passed around.