Custom intercooler

Zsteve · 02-25-2010, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

^ Actually man, Meth/water injection is used to raise the octanage of the air/fuel mix so it doesnt pre-ignite in the cylinder. Its like runing race fuel... its not to cool the intake charge..

Oh ok, so does a higher octane mean cooler intake charge? I was under the impression timing was adjusted for colder air that would allow more fuel. But still I think the end result could be the same, more power without having to adjust timing and not having to worry about hurting the engine.

RCZ · 02-26-2010, 12:31 PM

Nah, here's the quick and dirty. The octane rating of say gasoline, whether its 89 or 93 or whatever refers to how easy the fuel is to ignite. The lower that number, the easier it is to ignite.

When you have a car that is tuned for high performance, whether its high compression or boost or even just a lot of stress from driving on the track; that causes the cylinders to get really hot. Hotspots are created at different locations inside the combustion chamber. All that heat can cause the air/fuel mixture that you car burns to ignite prematurely. That is NOT a good thing, it creates a lot of stress on all the components and if done repeatedly will lead to engine failure. This pre-ignition is called pinging, knocking, detonation, etc. Its all the same thing.

So to battle this premature ignition problem, you can make the fuel mixture harder to ignite, that way it wont ignite before it is supposed to (when the sparkplugs fire). That is the purpose of running race fuel with higher octanage and of injecting methanol or water into the mix. It just raises the octanage, making it less likely for premature ignition to occur.

So race gas/meth/water will NOT give you more power, it just allows you to run a bit more boost or squeeze a little bit more performance out of the car. Because you can run more boost (in our case) then you can make more power without knocking. Of course in forced induction applications, that "little boost" can be a few more psi which can mean as much as 50whp+ over regular gasoline.

FYI, the leading cause of detonation is leaning out the air/fuel mixture. When you lean out, you are running more air in the mix than you should be. The more oxygen you have to burn, the more power, the hotter your cylinders get. So when you lean out, chances of knocking increase dramatically. Thats why they say its safer to run on the rich side. (rich = more fuel). So when someone says their AFR is 12. There are 12 parts of air per part of fuel. SO if you say your AFR is 15, then you are running comparatively more air, therefore leaning it out as compared to running the same car at 12.

So no, its not cooler, its just safer. I run 50/50 mix of pump gas and race gas at the track every time to ensure that my car isn't detonating

Zsteve · 02-26-2010, 01:30 PM

Thanks, that makes sense, so has anyone with a fully mooded out "Z", ie. CAI, HFC, CBE figured out if we are running too lean yet? I know when I first got the car my tail pipes would get some black junk on them and since Ive gone to my CBE and K&N drop ins, no black junk so Im assuming Im leaned out a bit but hopefully not too much.

RCZ · 02-26-2010, 03:14 PM

Yep, intake and exhaust will lean you out. I had every bolt-on and took it to the dyno to get tuned. It was running a little lean, but nothing to be alarmed about. Now after the tune I have everything smoothed out, no lean spots and the power curve feels completely smooth.

Going too lean makes you lose power too, so you have to get it right at the sweet spot where its safe and it makes as much power as possible.

1slow370 · 02-27-2010, 02:58 AM

actually i was going to mention something to stillen about this but forgot about it until now. Most efficient way of using co2 in a water to air setup = tank bubbler. Think stainless co2 bar submerged in the inercooler tank just have to make sure there is enough antifreeze in the mix to keep it from freezing

Edit forgot to mention that this way it is a direct cooling effect from the gas to the liquid instead of having to go through the metal of the cooler, and it contains the cooling effect of the co2 to the water more. I'd insulate the tank, and make it a good bit bigger then the one in the previous photo i saw, to maximize the time after each burst of co2 before the water would heat soak again. You would have to come up with a vented reservoir with a kind of catch can to keep the coolant in but let the co2 out as you would want the gas to flow directly through the water instead of just using an expansion chamber in the tank(think a/c evaporator) for the greatest cooling effect

Zsteve · 02-27-2010, 09:36 AM

man as hot as our engines get I might just use that new water to air intercooler by itself they are developing for the SC just to get air temps down, but it would prolly be expensive if they would ever sell it seperately.

Hi-TecDesigns · 02-27-2010, 04:18 PM

RCZ,

I repped you for a great explanation, though I'd like to make one relatively minor correction.

The water/meth does not effect the octane rating of the fuel (also as a side note, the "octane rating" is also not the same as the "octane" of a fuel, which is a specific molecule within the fuel), though it does cut down on premature ignition. The water/meth works by increasing the specific latent heat of the air/fuel mixture, i.e. it cools the mixture. As the mixture heats up during the compression stroke, if the mixture gets too hot it will self-ignite (ping, knock, whatever you want to call it), which is the same method of operation for a diesel engine.

To add to your excellent description, one of the causes of premature ignition (the hotspots you mentioned) are usually caused by carbon deposits on the piston head. As the engine puts on miles, carbon deposits build up, so it behooves people with lead feet to throw in some deposit cleaner every 50-75k miles to keep the buildup level minimal.

RCZ · 02-27-2010, 06:18 PM

^ Excellent, thanks for the correction man. Good to know! I'm learning like everyone else

Rep to you as well.

Zguy · 02-28-2010, 09:13 AM

nice explainations

z350boy · 03-14-2010, 10:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstrnldr

As far as the oil cooler, you would be either over cooling the oil, or heating the charge temp higher than you would want. The ideal temps for intake air, and oil aren't close enough to make this a good idea in my opinion. I could possible see running the oil through the radiator similar to the way manufactures handle the transmission cooling duties, but you always have a potential of leaking internally and not knowing about it until its far too late. I think a proper oil cooler set up with a thermostat is still going to be your best bet here.

That's why I love the Z community!!! Thanks for your response. I have continued to do research on this topic, which is how I got back to this thread.

The ideal temps for intake air, and oil aren't close enough to make this a good idea in my opinion.

I still have alot to learn as I did not know this and had'nt considered it as a factor. Changes my thinking radically!! I will have to rethink my approach.

z350boy · 03-14-2010, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN

I hope you don't mind my input on this but I have a few thoughts on this.

Incorporating some sort of cryo/meth system in the intercooler is very simple and has been done for years. You can simply mount a spray bar and mount it in front of the intercooler. This will chill the intercooler right before you make your run but it won't last very long. A lot of people mount their NOS purge nozzles in front of their intercoolers to get the same effect.

In regards to mounting the oil cooler into the intercooler, I would stay away from trying to do this for a few reasons.

1) As the gentleman above me posted you would be running completely different temperatures in each system. The oil is going to overheat the intercooler and greatly reduce the performance of the intercooler. I think your idea is good and I understand your desire to try something different to improve cooling and airflow to to your coolers in a confined space. Unfortunately I don't think it would be the ideal setup.

2) The charged air coming out of the intercooler crossing over the oil cooler would create some pretty high temperatures. On the flip side the heat being put out by the oil cooler would reduce the performance of the intercooler.

Most modern cars are designed with a cooling system that at some point crosses through or near the engine oiling system as well. This design is supposed to help the both fluids reach and maintain operating temperatures more quickly. It works very well for street purposes but when being pushed hard on the track it can cause issues with overheating. Take for example the Ford GT supercar. It is an incredible car that can run over 200 miles per hour stock and can do 0-60 in nearly 3.0 seconds. But, if you take it to the race track, it will start overheating in about five laps. That car has two issues. 1) limited airflow to the coolers and too many coolers in the front end. 2) it has this same oil/coolant sharing system.

Good points!! Guess I still have alot of research to do....lol

z350boy · 03-14-2010, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RCZ

It would be an interesting idea to automatize it to spray when post-cooler air temp reaches a certain level. It would be an anti-heat soak system.

Kyle, would something like this be a lot more effective when it is cooling water, like in your air-to-water system? Its kind of a dumb question because I know water is a much more effective heat exchanger so yes it will, but I don't want to make any assumptions about how the temperature of the water running in the system affects your manifold mounted cooler.

I guess what I'm trying to ask is whether this would be worth the price to develop due to the greater effect it has on an air-to-water system?

These are interesting ideas that I will definately look into. Thanks!

z350boy · 03-14-2010, 11:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh@STILLEN

Another kickass idea I've always liked was done on the Ford Lightning Concept a while back.. they dubbed it the 'SuperCooler'.. where it would use the A/C system to store up and blast the intercooler with chilled air, resulting in a 50hp bump for 30-45 seconds at a time..

Ford Lightning Concept - Ultimatecarpage.com forums

Now that's interesting!

z350boy · 03-14-2010, 11:13 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fstrnldr

Okay so i actually dug back and found the magazine ...

Turbo magazine July 1998
Article is "Ramming Speed" by Evan Griffey

Basically the IC system consisted of:

Spearco air/water IC
12 Gallon ice chest (in the bed of the truck)
A/C evaporator from an MR2
dedicated A/C compressor

Charge temp out of the twin T04b (told you this was a while back!) is 250°, with an ambient air temp of 125° (Abudabi dessert)
the system is capable of giving an intake air temp of 59-65°

The big question is does the added strain of the AC compressor, the added weight of the full system and the weight of the 12 gallons of water justify the power added by the intake temp drop.

Many TT'd exotics are running something similiar to this type of set-up.

XwChriswX · 03-15-2010, 01:57 AM

Not to make a segway or derail the thread, but since it's talking about Intercoolers, and very in depth I might add. (My intercooler IQ just shot up 30 points thanks thos this thread lol) I figured this might be the best spot for my questions...

I've seen different SC/TT setups for the 350/370Z on this forum now and have noticed some use a single Intercooler for both -chargers, and some use a seperate intercooler for each side. My questions are:

1. Does this even matter using a seperate Intercooler for each side vs. a single Intercooler?

2. If it does matter, which is better, 1 big intercooler feeding both sides, or 1 seperate one for each SC/TC?

02-26-2010, 12:31 PM	#17 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	Nah, here's the quick and dirty. The octane rating of say gasoline, whether its 89 or 93 or whatever refers to how easy the fuel is to ignite. The lower that number, the easier it is to ignite. When you have a car that is tuned for high performance, whether its high compression or boost or even just a lot of stress from driving on the track; that causes the cylinders to get really hot. Hotspots are created at different locations inside the combustion chamber. All that heat can cause the air/fuel mixture that you car burns to ignite prematurely. That is NOT a good thing, it creates a lot of stress on all the components and if done repeatedly will lead to engine failure. This pre-ignition is called pinging, knocking, detonation, etc. Its all the same thing. So to battle this premature ignition problem, you can make the fuel mixture harder to ignite, that way it wont ignite before it is supposed to (when the sparkplugs fire). That is the purpose of running race fuel with higher octanage and of injecting methanol or water into the mix. It just raises the octanage, making it less likely for premature ignition to occur. So race gas/meth/water will NOT give you more power, it just allows you to run a bit more boost or squeeze a little bit more performance out of the car. Because you can run more boost (in our case) then you can make more power without knocking. Of course in forced induction applications, that "little boost" can be a few more psi which can mean as much as 50whp+ over regular gasoline. FYI, the leading cause of detonation is leaning out the air/fuel mixture. When you lean out, you are running more air in the mix than you should be. The more oxygen you have to burn, the more power, the hotter your cylinders get. So when you lean out, chances of knocking increase dramatically. Thats why they say its safer to run on the rich side. (rich = more fuel). So when someone says their AFR is 12. There are 12 parts of air per part of fuel. SO if you say your AFR is 15, then you are running comparatively more air, therefore leaning it out as compared to running the same car at 12. So no, its not cooler, its just safer. I run 50/50 mix of pump gas and race gas at the track every time to ensure that my car isn't detonating Last edited by RCZ; 02-26-2010 at 12:33 PM.

02-26-2010, 01:30 PM	#18 (permalink)
Zsteve A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: TX Posts: 3,298 Drives: the 2 balled club Rep Power: 21	Thanks, that makes sense, so has anyone with a fully mooded out "Z", ie. CAI, HFC, CBE figured out if we are running too lean yet? I know when I first got the car my tail pipes would get some black junk on them and since Ive gone to my CBE and K&N drop ins, no black junk so Im assuming Im leaned out a bit but hopefully not too much. __________________ 2010 LS3 C6 Silver coupe corvette

02-27-2010, 02:58 AM	#20 (permalink)
1slow370 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: In the D Posts: 3,732 Drives: v8 74 260z ;) Rep Power: 7250	actually i was going to mention something to stillen about this but forgot about it until now. Most efficient way of using co2 in a water to air setup = tank bubbler. Think stainless co2 bar submerged in the inercooler tank just have to make sure there is enough antifreeze in the mix to keep it from freezing Edit forgot to mention that this way it is a direct cooling effect from the gas to the liquid instead of having to go through the metal of the cooler, and it contains the cooling effect of the co2 to the water more. I'd insulate the tank, and make it a good bit bigger then the one in the previous photo i saw, to maximize the time after each burst of co2 before the water would heat soak again. You would have to come up with a vented reservoir with a kind of catch can to keep the coolant in but let the co2 out as you would want the gas to flow directly through the water instead of just using an expansion chamber in the tank(think a/c evaporator) for the greatest cooling effect Last edited by 1slow370; 02-27-2010 at 03:06 AM.

02-27-2010, 09:36 AM	#21 (permalink)
Zsteve A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: TX Posts: 3,298 Drives: the 2 balled club Rep Power: 21	man as hot as our engines get I might just use that new water to air intercooler by itself they are developing for the SC just to get air temps down, but it would prolly be expensive if they would ever sell it seperately. __________________ 2010 LS3 C6 Silver coupe corvette

02-27-2010, 04:18 PM	#22 (permalink)
Hi-TecDesigns Base Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Glenelg, MD Posts: 146 Drives: 370 Rdstr AT7 BkChry Rep Power: 15	RCZ, I repped you for a great explanation, though I'd like to make one relatively minor correction. The water/meth does not effect the octane rating of the fuel (also as a side note, the "octane rating" is also not the same as the "octane" of a fuel, which is a specific molecule within the fuel), though it does cut down on premature ignition. The water/meth works by increasing the specific latent heat of the air/fuel mixture, i.e. it cools the mixture. As the mixture heats up during the compression stroke, if the mixture gets too hot it will self-ignite (ping, knock, whatever you want to call it), which is the same method of operation for a diesel engine. To add to your excellent description, one of the causes of premature ignition (the hotspots you mentioned) are usually caused by carbon deposits on the piston head. As the engine puts on miles, carbon deposits build up, so it behooves people with lead feet to throw in some deposit cleaner every 50-75k miles to keep the buildup level minimal. __________________ http://hi-tecdesigns.com/images/pict...on%20Small.gif 2000 S2000 Brickyard Red Metallic w/ Romanesque Crimson Kandy, custom everything else

02-26-2010, 03:14 PM	#19 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	Yep, intake and exhaust will lean you out. I had every bolt-on and took it to the dyno to get tuned. It was running a little lean, but nothing to be alarmed about. Now after the tune I have everything smoothed out, no lean spots and the power curve feels completely smooth. Going too lean makes you lose power too, so you have to get it right at the sweet spot where its safe and it makes as much power as possible.

02-27-2010, 06:18 PM	#23 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	^ Excellent, thanks for the correction man. Good to know! I'm learning like everyone else Rep to you as well.

02-28-2010, 09:13 AM	#24 (permalink)
Zguy Base Member Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Fort Worth Posts: 153 Drives: 05 Chrome Silver Rep Power: 16	nice explainations

03-15-2010, 01:57 AM	#30 (permalink)
XwChriswX WFLYIDNNE Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: In The Fastlane Posts: 50,648 Drives: 02 GDB WRX Rep Power: 451	Not to make a segway or derail the thread, but since it's talking about Intercoolers, and very in depth I might add. (My intercooler IQ just shot up 30 points thanks thos this thread lol) I figured this might be the best spot for my questions... I've seen different SC/TT setups for the 350/370Z on this forum now and have noticed some use a single Intercooler for both -chargers, and some use a seperate intercooler for each side. My questions are: 1. Does this even matter using a seperate Intercooler for each side vs. a single Intercooler? 2. If it does matter, which is better, 1 big intercooler feeding both sides, or 1 seperate one for each SC/TC? __________________ Bonnie - Stage 2, Audio build coming this fall! R.I.P. Abby 3/29/10 - 3/30/14

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