Announcing TopgunZ ACE Supercharger Kit!

redondoaveb · 06-07-2020, 11:46 PM

Compressor surge?

TopgunZ · 06-08-2020, 07:57 AM

It is absolutely the BOV being under the right conditions to allow it to fluctuate between open and closed. When that condition is just right it is not under enough vacuum to be pegged open and the air the SC is making (which it is always making) has to escape. The valve gets pushed up by the air, the spring pushes it back down, due to not enough vacuum. This happens repeatedly and quickly giving that chopping/fluttering sound. I experimented forever with this on my initial kit back in 2014. Vacuum changes from car to car and from environments, namely altitude.

If you get flutter then try a slighlty stronger spring, or you can throw in a shim, like a really thick washer. This makes the spring stronger. Also, adding resistance to the output will help. Place a filter on it (Return style only). I bet if you bought the cover that makes the Q50 return style, it would be gone.

As long as the BOV is staying open in idle and decell, and shut during boost anything goes. Maybe the 3psi spring would work better.

redondoaveb · 06-08-2020, 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

It is absolutely the BOV being under the right conditions to allow it to fluctuate between open and closed. When that condition is just right it is not under enough vacuum to be pegged open and the air the SC is making (which it is always making) has to escape. The valve gets pushed up by the air, the spring pushes it back down, due to not enough vacuum. This happens repeatedly and quickly giving that chopping/fluttering sound. I experimented forever with this on my initial kit back in 2014. Vacuum changes from car to car and from environments, namely altitude.

If you get flutter then try a slighlty stronger spring, or you can throw in a shim, like a really thick washer. This makes the spring stronger. Also, adding resistance to the output will help. Place a filter on it (Return style only). I bet if you bought the cover that makes the Q50 return style, it would be gone.

As long as the BOV is staying open in idle and decell, and shut during boost anything goes. Maybe the 3psi spring would work better.

The Q50 comes with a 2 psi spring and unfortunately, it appears the next stronger spring is a 6 psi. The QR and QRJ don'r share the same spring. The bottom QR section can be bought for $60.00. I ran a Q50 and now a QR50 (the QR because I'm running a silencer) in the location as the V1 series kit and have/had no issues with flutter.

What is strange is the Q50/QR50 has a 50mm valve and the QRJ has a 38.5 valve yet the QR50 has a smaller outlet port (22mm) compared to the QRJ (35mm).

DUSHER · 06-08-2020, 01:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TopgunZ

It is absolutely the BOV being under the right conditions to allow it to fluctuate between open and closed. When that condition is just right it is not under enough vacuum to be pegged open and the air the SC is making (which it is always making) has to escape. The valve gets pushed up by the air, the spring pushes it back down, due to not enough vacuum. This happens repeatedly and quickly giving that chopping/fluttering sound. I experimented forever with this on my initial kit back in 2014. Vacuum changes from car to car and from environments, namely altitude.

If you get flutter then try a slighlty stronger spring, or you can throw in a shim, like a really thick washer. This makes the spring stronger. Also, adding resistance to the output will help. Place a filter on it (Return style only). I bet if you bought the cover that makes the Q50 return style, it would be gone.

As long as the BOV is staying open in idle and decell, and shut during boost anything goes. Maybe the 3psi spring would work better.

so do you think I should try adding a washer? I have plenty of them at the shop.

TopgunZ · 06-08-2020, 01:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUSHER

so do you think I should try adding a washer? I have plenty of them at the shop.

Try one that is at least 1/4" thick and see if that helps. Might need to go to 1/2". More of a spacer at that point. You can always make one too with some rod stock and a drill press or mill.

G37XSedan · 06-08-2020, 02:01 PM

This looks like the perfect solution for the power level I'm looking for in the G37X sedan. What are the filtration options for this? It will be on a daily driver.

TopgunZ · 06-09-2020, 08:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by G37XSedan

This looks like the perfect solution for the power level I'm looking for in the G37X sedan. What are the filtration options for this? It will be on a daily driver.

It is the Velocity intake with the Prefilter. The filter does a great job of keeping anything that could be harmful out of your engine while bringing in as much air as possible.

If you want added protection, you could place a second filter on essentially doubling the micron filter element.

The filter is easily removable for cleaning unlike the old filter that would require removal of the supercharger for cleaning. You can always still use the old KN style I sold with my first kits if you want, but I find it unnecessary with this new design I offer.

Check out the new website! www.topgunspeedworks.com

As of the current date I only have the 370Z page fully populated with all items but everything that is there works on the G37.

DUSHER · 06-09-2020, 07:36 PM

I messaged Tial tech support to get the inner diameter of the BOV and he did not give me the measurements. Instead he mentioned that they do not recommend adding a spacer to the BOV. They said adding a spacer will cause premature wear. It has the potential of causing the bov to bind or stick.

Truth be told, I fell like after spending around $3.7k on both kits I feel like there should be a better solution to this flutter.

TopgunZ · 06-09-2020, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DUSHER

I messaged Tial tech support to get the inner diameter of the BOV and he did not give me the measurements. Instead he mentioned that they do not recommend adding a spacer to the BOV. They said adding a spacer will cause premature wear. It has the potential of causing the bov to bind or stick.

Truth be told, I fell like after spending around $3.7k on both kits I feel like there should be a better solution to this flutter.

They said to go to the next spring up. I'll send you one.

redondoaveb · 06-09-2020, 10:10 PM

It's kind of ironic that Tial doesn't recommend using a washer because they say it will cause premature wear yet they use the same springs for their bv and q series but the bv has a higher spring rate because it gets compressed more.

TopgunZ · 06-10-2020, 07:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by redondoaveb

It's kind of ironic that Tial doesn't recommend using a washer because they say it will cause premature wear yet they use the same springs for their bv and q series but the bv has a higher spring rate because it gets compressed more.

Lol. So true. But do you really think Tial wants people to use a spacer when they can sell them a spring for a 200% markup?

However, I get it as a customer you dont want to do something the mfg doesnt recommend.

redondoaveb · 06-11-2020, 06:59 PM

Some great information I got from Tial today regarding the Q/QR and the QRJ:

I believe you would be just fine in retaining the QR, but I also think that, if you use the QRJ, and when installed correctly, it will provide a more linear response.

It's perfectly okay to use the -3.0psi spring, as that would also allow the QRJ to be open at idle, to act as a bypass, and if that provides you with the best performance, that's great news. In many other cases, the -6psi spring would provide that same bypass, but the BOV would not respond as quickly. That is exactly why the 'default' part numbers for the QRJ only contain either the -1.5 or -3.0psi springs, then, from there, the springs become an optional item.

Sometimes this just comes down to the specific engine dynamics, and sometimes it's about personal preference, but, again, that's why we offer options.

I am sure that, if there was a suitable demand, we could work with our spring supplier to offer a spring that sits 'between' the current offerings, but that demand has really not been strong. The Q/QR and QRJ actually have some overlap as to spring use, as the required dimensions at the spring cup are identical, but some springs can't be used in some bodies, as they could limit piston travel, etc.

Now, as to why a Q would be more apt to 'flutter' than a QRJ, this really comes down to the design, and as I mentioned, for most applications, I would tend to recommend the QRJ, as it's designed to provide that more linear response, and it's less likely to exhibit 'flutter' than the Q or QR, especially when installed correctly.

The Q and QR tend to be more "on-off-on" in terms of response, where the QRJ has the advantage of that piston/chamber design.

Many times, kit builders choose the Q because it is well-known, robust, and reliable, and has tremendous flow, but in a lot of cases, they would probably benefit from using the QRJ. We try to educate customers as best we can, but in the end, this is precisely why we offer both designs.

That said, I can assure you that for one person that wants to rid the system of any 'flutter', there is an equal and opposite person that actually wants to enhance that very same 'flutter'.

So it does become somewhat subjective.

TopgunZ · 06-18-2020, 08:25 AM

Well Tony switched to E85 and we hit the dyno yesterday. Even though the numbers were amazing we had some things fighting us. We took this to a brand new shop here in the twin cities as he was the only one we could find with an open schedule. It is a drive on DynoJet. He didnt have an adapter to hook the boost reference up to. He will get this corrected for our next trip.

Conditions:

FILTER ON Supercharger
90 Degrees Ambient
Supercharger Belt is missing a rib contributing to belt slip at 6800rpm.(no idea how this happened)

We will be changing that belt and heading back in on a cooler day and get a boost reference going. But here is the dyno with numbers.

584whp and 471wtq! That torque is insane!

EndlessZ · 06-18-2020, 11:42 AM

Really solid jump just switching over to E85!

TopgunZ · 06-18-2020, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by EndlessZ

Really solid jump just switching over to E85!

The real impressive thing is we went up 50 whp but 60wtq!

That should be the other way around by a fair bigger margin.

I think the OEM intake is really helping the TQ numbers.

06-08-2020, 07:57 AM	#2 (permalink)
TopgunZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,651 Drives: 06 350Z , 09 370Z MT Rep Power: 6835	It is absolutely the BOV being under the right conditions to allow it to fluctuate between open and closed. When that condition is just right it is not under enough vacuum to be pegged open and the air the SC is making (which it is always making) has to escape. The valve gets pushed up by the air, the spring pushes it back down, due to not enough vacuum. This happens repeatedly and quickly giving that chopping/fluttering sound. I experimented forever with this on my initial kit back in 2014. Vacuum changes from car to car and from environments, namely altitude. If you get flutter then try a slighlty stronger spring, or you can throw in a shim, like a really thick washer. This makes the spring stronger. Also, adding resistance to the output will help. Place a filter on it (Return style only). I bet if you bought the cover that makes the Q50 return style, it would be gone. As long as the BOV is staying open in idle and decell, and shut during boost anything goes. Maybe the 3psi spring would work better. __________________ ROTREX SUPERCHARGER TUNER KITS - $6799/ CUSTOM STILLEN AIR TO AIR KITS -$2100/ 700+ WHP!! WWW.TOPGUNSPEEDWORKS.COM

06-11-2020, 06:59 PM	#12 (permalink)
redondoaveb A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2017 Location: So. Commiefornia Posts: 6,382 Drives: 2014 Nismo Gunmetal Rep Power: 2684376	Some great information I got from Tial today regarding the Q/QR and the QRJ: I believe you would be just fine in retaining the QR, but I also think that, if you use the QRJ, and when installed correctly, it will provide a more linear response. It's perfectly okay to use the -3.0psi spring, as that would also allow the QRJ to be open at idle, to act as a bypass, and if that provides you with the best performance, that's great news. In many other cases, the -6psi spring would provide that same bypass, but the BOV would not respond as quickly. That is exactly why the 'default' part numbers for the QRJ only contain either the -1.5 or -3.0psi springs, then, from there, the springs become an optional item. Sometimes this just comes down to the specific engine dynamics, and sometimes it's about personal preference, but, again, that's why we offer options. I am sure that, if there was a suitable demand, we could work with our spring supplier to offer a spring that sits 'between' the current offerings, but that demand has really not been strong. The Q/QR and QRJ actually have some overlap as to spring use, as the required dimensions at the spring cup are identical, but some springs can't be used in some bodies, as they could limit piston travel, etc. Now, as to why a Q would be more apt to 'flutter' than a QRJ, this really comes down to the design, and as I mentioned, for most applications, I would tend to recommend the QRJ, as it's designed to provide that more linear response, and it's less likely to exhibit 'flutter' than the Q or QR, especially when installed correctly. The Q and QR tend to be more "on-off-on" in terms of response, where the QRJ has the advantage of that piston/chamber design. Many times, kit builders choose the Q because it is well-known, robust, and reliable, and has tremendous flow, but in a lot of cases, they would probably benefit from using the QRJ. We try to educate customers as best we can, but in the end, this is precisely why we offer both designs. That said, I can assure you that for one person that wants to rid the system of any 'flutter', there is an equal and opposite person that actually wants to enhance that very same 'flutter'. So it does become somewhat subjective. __________________ Fast Intentions "Stage Seb" twin turbo #098- Specialty Z/Tial-Xonarotor/CJM/Ecutek/HKS/KW/SPL/Hotchkis/Rohana/Toyo 750whp/700ft.lbs

06-18-2020, 08:25 AM	#13 (permalink)
TopgunZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jun 2012 Location: Minneapolis Posts: 2,651 Drives: 06 350Z , 09 370Z MT Rep Power: 6835	Well Tony switched to E85 and we hit the dyno yesterday. Even though the numbers were amazing we had some things fighting us. We took this to a brand new shop here in the twin cities as he was the only one we could find with an open schedule. It is a drive on DynoJet. He didnt have an adapter to hook the boost reference up to. He will get this corrected for our next trip. Conditions: FILTER ON Supercharger 90 Degrees Ambient Supercharger Belt is missing a rib contributing to belt slip at 6800rpm.(no idea how this happened) We will be changing that belt and heading back in on a cooler day and get a boost reference going. But here is the dyno with numbers. 584whp and 471wtq! That torque is insane! __________________ ROTREX SUPERCHARGER TUNER KITS - $6799/ CUSTOM STILLEN AIR TO AIR KITS -$2100/ 700+ WHP!! WWW.TOPGUNSPEEDWORKS.COM

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06-08-2020, 02:01 PM	#6 (permalink)
G37XSedan Base Member Join Date: May 2020 Location: Utah Posts: 1 Drives: 2009 G37X Sedan 7AT Rep Power: 7	This looks like the perfect solution for the power level I'm looking for in the G37X sedan. What are the filtration options for this? It will be on a daily driver.

06-09-2020, 07:36 PM	#8 (permalink)
DUSHER Base Member Join Date: Oct 2017 Location: Colorado Posts: 130 Drives: stillen 370z Rep Power: 9	I messaged Tial tech support to get the inner diameter of the BOV and he did not give me the measurements. Instead he mentioned that they do not recommend adding a spacer to the BOV. They said adding a spacer will cause premature wear. It has the potential of causing the bov to bind or stick. Truth be told, I fell like after spending around $3.7k on both kits I feel like there should be a better solution to this flutter.

06-18-2020, 11:42 AM	#14 (permalink)
EndlessZ Base Member Join Date: Oct 2015 Location: minnesota Posts: 42 Drives: 09 NISMO PW Rep Power: 11	Really solid jump just switching over to E85!