:koolaidwall:

Oh I dont know exactly what they are doing so I couldn't tell ya. I know for previous kits they have taken cars out to the desert to do extended hot weather testing. They are track testing it; that's going to be more abuse, more heat and more stress than it would see on any normal road condition. I mean the word racing is in your name, you should know these things...

Granted its not track testing in 120 degree weather, but it sure is a little better than simply doing dyno runs. (not a dig at gtm, I dont know what they are doing for testing)

The bold statement is where it is at, nothing for/against either company as I am sitting back, but track testing does not always mean 120° temperatures on X or Y track. It means, beating the living cr*p out of the car on a track to provide good results, be it cold or hot, and finding points that are weak or need better tuning.

I do know these things - it seems that you don't know how things work.. This isn't Ford doing August testing in Arizona...

If they take it out to the "desert" right now they will be running in almost the same temps as Los Angeles.

how about we nip this in the bud before it becomes yet another pissing contest? I appreciate the testing done with this kit, driven hard at a track will simulate the worst that can be done to the engine REGARDLESS of outside temperatures, if it performs well under heavy stress, the daily driven commute can in no way exert the car to such an extent, so if it holds up under stress, the reliability factor increases 10 fold. Stillen has an EXCELLENT track record of customer service, so how about we all sit back, chill, and wait til both companies finalize things?

:iagree: I'm sure STILLEN will have a much more thorough update soon.

Trying to get in above all of the noise in here.

Good job to the guys at Stillen. I may not be a proponent of your older kits, but outside of the aesthetics I am holding off on passing judgment on the new one described in this thread.

One question, though. Kyle, Josh, anyone at Stillen - What boost level was used to ascertain the power shown on the dynograph posted?

Thanks for the candor.

When will the update take place?

To be honest, I have seen your questions (s) about your power output on other threads and I have not answered them because I don't know enough about the modifications that you made to your kit and we have not had the opportunity to test the results of the modifications that you made. For example, if I remember correctly I believe I saw somewhere that you were running 10 psi? Please correct me if I'm wrong.

The Eaton MP62 supercharger was designed for engines with a maximum displacement of 3.5 liters. The MP90 is able to flow more air and therefore produces more power than the MP62 but it is substantially taller and requires an even bigger hood bulge. During our testing of the MP62 We found that the most efficient boost level on that kit was around 7 or 8 psi. After that, the supercharger would begin to cavitate and more boost actually became less efficient. If I'm wrong about how much boost you were running please let me know and I will change my post but I do remember seeing somewhere someone said they were running a 10 pound pulley on our kit.

[QUOTE=RCZ;428448]quick question Kyle, some of us rev to 8150rpm right now. Not that its a big deal, but I assume the tuning map for the kit is only responsible for 7500rpm?
QUOTE]

RCZ, I don't know the answer to this question yet. I will need to do more research for you and find out.

It is a true statement that we are not currently able to do 100+ degree testing right now and we are not able to do 30 below testing either yet. However, we are doing the testing that we are ABLE to do which is flog the car as hard as possible at a race track to find the weak points. If we waited to release the kit after we had the opportunity to test in 100+ degree weather at Phoenix International Raceway we wouldn't be releasing it until September or October. Then if we waited to release the kit after having the opportunity to do cold weather testing we would need to send the car to a cold state in the middle of winter. That would put us back to about this time next year for a release...Not very realistic.

So, we do what we're able to do which is take the car to a closed air base and beat on it for a long time. Then we park it for a few minutes, let everything heat soak, then go straight back out and do it again. As you know, these cars have problems when on the race track being pushed hard for five or ten minutes. You can not possibly and SHOULD NOT simulate those driving conditions on the street or on a dyno, so we have gone to our test facility to simulate them as best we can. By pushing the car hard and really putting it through stress we are able to get a good idea of how the car will perform during the middle of summer at a road course.

By the way, here are some pictures of our red 350Z that was purchased by a man in Arizona. The only work that the customer did to the car after purchasing it from us was a roll cage, racing seats, and a door panels. Every other component on the car is a standard off the shelf component and he has not had any issues with overheating when he races at Phoenix International Raceway.
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/h...50ontrack4.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/h...350ontrack.jpg
http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/h...50ontrack2.jpg

That information will be in the press release. We're working on the press release right now and hope to have it ready soon.

Kyle when will you guys release the PSI for the trims and another dyno on stock or lighter rims than those heavy ones that were on there? And pricing.

Never mind I see in the post that went out while I was typing this one.

Me and you, we see eye to eye on a lot...but I can’t agree with you 100% on this one. You have to understand, they didn’t make an intake manifold to flow more/better air...They built it because it’s the only way they can make that charger work. Also, you can’t discount the 'other' charger and their testing methods just because they haven’t released footage of them burning tires around a track. GTM has allegedly been working on this for a LONG time, well before anything from Stillen. They have also been tuning our motors far longer and have probably logged more data than any shop in the US. The fabrication and ingenuity of their kit, IMHO, is much more extensive than this setup. Don’t forget, they still haven’t tuned with anything but factory exhaust components.

Lastly, Stillen has yet to even test this on a 370; we don’t know what (if any) changes are going to have to be made. We can’t race to conclusions, especially with their rep on the 350 kits.

In reality, the race has only begun.

I like it when people disagree respectfully and you make valid points Danny. If we always agreed then this forum would suck.

They made the manifold the way they did because it was the best solution for using what they thought was the best option as far as supercharger. They must have done a good amount of R&D to completely design a piece from scratch and make it work as well as they have. I haven't heard anything from GTM as far as what they are doing for testing or whether it has survived testing if they did. The only thing I know from GTM is that they are taking payments up front for a kit that afaik hasn't been tested. That bothers me a little bit, but it must be just me.

How long has GTM been working on this kit? I am not saying its a bad kit, dont misunderstand me, I just don't see how it is any different than any sc kit that has come before it. I think the Stillen one has more research in it and it has things like water cooling that I welcome with open arms. Stillen was working on a Monster GT-R project before the Z! As far as the fabrication and ingenuity being more extensive, please give me an example of that. Stillen hasn't tuned anything but a CARB legal car either, so..

What difference does it make if its on a 370 or not? its not going to affect any major design parts of it. Power is only going up from where it is now.

You know I have lots of respect for you, so take this as the discussion it is and nothing personal please.

Just a guess here, and not that it really matters in the big picture, but I would guess the STILLEN kit has more parts. It has an extra manifold, I/C (in the manifold) that requires a pump, lines, fittings ECT in addition to the front mount used to cool the coolant. The other kit just has an air to air routed to the stock manifold. That being said the set up STILLEN is using seems like it's nice from a consistancy point of view for hard lapping around a track.

RCZ, this is just a guess too but in some of the engine management programs I've seen the fuel/timing curves just continue at a linear rate if they go off the map (over the RPM range). We'll see what Kyle says.

Not everything is identical between the two cars - I'm just saying, they havent even tested this kit on our car and I hope we dont get any surprises with fitment issues. Other than that, I just have two issues...

1. Why is the amount of boost not being shown?
2. The design to me just looks old, while the GTM kit screams refinement. But thats probably more of an opinion, no big deal.

Sorry guys I'm buried in work here so I'll just jump in for two seconds. Just wanted to answer these two questions and clarify that we have done all of our measurements on the G and the Z side by side and we have found that there is very little different between them. The two cars have different fuel pumps...That's about it...Everything else is pretty much the same. We will have some different brackets for the heat exchanger obviously, but that's pretty small and will take us about twenty minutes to fabricate.

1) We feel that boost pressure is really a part of the press release, so we're going to hold off on releasing that magic number until we're ready for the press release.

2) This is very much a personal opinion, some people will love the design and some will not. Just my opinion, but rather than saying the STILLEN supercharger looks old, I think it looks more like a traditional muscle car where everything is out in the open. If you prefer the stealth look then yes, the GTM kit is undeniably stealthier than the STILLEN kit. Aesthetics are very personal. Some people will say "I dont want anyone knowing what I have under my hood." Other people will say "If I'm spending $XXXX.XX I want to see it!"

#2 Your absolutly right! I did mean 'old' as 'old school' - which is OK, but I am just really diggin the stealth of GTMs.

At the end of the day reliability is the most important because both kits as of right now (and I'm sure in the future) will be close in HP. Personally I love all this, I think both companies will be OK and if the competition makes both of them stronger than I'm all for it...

RCZ - lets meet somewhere in the middle when both of our cars are done and put on a show for the forum, huh huh??

Oh you're on brother!:tup:

I didn't know you had already committed to the GTM kit.

I'll meet you in South Carolina! Maybe a trackday in Road Atlanta??

Hehe if only it were that simple!

I know right! Lets make a serious effort to do something like that. That would be great. I'll get some guys to bring out some nice HD equipment.

Speaking of HD - did you see the new GoPro camera's? HD, better sound, more memory - same size! I'm going to get one this week and test it out.

I have an HD Camera :)

Yeah I've been itching to pick up a gopro and mount it to the front bumper... If I didnt have a impending supercharger purchase I would get one now.

I guess everyone assumes GTM has not put their S/C through rear world stress tests because they didnt post videos? I remember Sam saying in previous threads prior to their TT release that road testing was neccesary before pubic release, no reason to think they wouldnt do this on their S/C.

Road testing and stressful track testing are two completely different tests my man, one is to check functionality, the other to check reliability. You cant tell how reliable a setup is until its abused in the most adverse conditions, Stillen has done their best to replicate this and their setup held up, so far, as far as reliability and functionality go, i'd say theyre ahead, but im not jumping to conclusions until more info is released for both.

And I'm predicting a Stillen vs. GTM shootout between RCZ and Danny, I wanna get in on this!

i don't know if its more funny or sad that we have guys talking about driving hundreds of miles to meet for a shoot out between the kits when the two companies are probably less than 50 miles apart, and could meet at the track themselves!

Stillen... how long for this press release? Right now my thought is that if you made more power with equal or less boost than that "other kit" that it would have been posted with the graph. That could just be the way i think though. Looking forward to more info.

We'd be more than happy to put our 370Z on the track.. absolutely! We have full intentions of doing just that..

Full press release won't be long, we just want to get the kit on the 370Z, which is in progress now as we've mentioned, and we'll be good to go.

Road Tuning is not the same as track testing. Its not because they haven't posted videos, its because they said nothing about it in their big press release. You would think thats where pertinent information about reliability and testing would go, but instead we got a lot about pretty parts, a lot about the supercharger they are using, a bunch of pictures, one dyno and a price. Sorry and some vids of a dyno pull. Not that there's anything wrong with that either, but thats what was released.

I'm not making any of this up, it is what it is. You guys are making a big deal out of this too. I just said Stillen has done testing, not that GTM hasn't. I just don't know about it if they have.

F that! They already have all the fun LOL

I'm not looking for a rinky dink shoot out between me and RCZ. I'm looking to meet a fellow member whom I respect so we can provide the community some great comparo's and real world footage (in HD!). Believe me, when this happens, I want to make this a real nice meet with tons of cars. I've got a huge crew that would just love to come out for a fun day at the track.

Cars, food, good people...Whats not to like!

i'd love to see the 370z kit make more power than the g37 kit ;)

yet another day with no press release

The dyno numbers look great. The torque curve is what I expected from a centrifugal supercharger. I'm still surprised/confused about GTM's torque curve. It looks like a roots or whipple supercharger, not a centrifugal. I've got a bunch of Stillen parts on my car as it is. I just want to know, when can I get the Stillen supercharger kit? I've had my Z for a year with N/A. I bought it because the Camaro wasn't availabile. Then the Camaro guys got their supercharger in just a few months. I know you guys had a prototype back G37 back in 5/09. Please, just give me a date when I can get your shop to install one!

Raul,

You make it to SC, I'm there.

Wes and Danny, I mean I'll do a supercharger tour if Stillen pays for it hahaha

Just kinda realized now that I've met quite a few of you guys since 08. Hard to believe I've been on here for well over a year now. Anyway, I know we have our differences sometimes but its all good as long as nobody forgets we are all in here for the same reason. Lots of tension lately, I think we all need to take a step back for a minute, chill out and remember a lot of this is friendly fire.

------
Back on topic:

Whats everyone doing for a clutch?

Kyle - no offense meant, but I am not certain why dyno numbers can be posted but not the PSI which netted such numbers? The only option I have is to believe that it is a pretty high poundage which would be detrimental to the longevity of the stock motor? Knowing what I do about the Vortech blowers, I honestly can't imagine that it was under 10psi.


The GTM vs. Stillen torque curves is easily explained. Both are centrifugal blowers which are, in essence, like turbo chargers. The smaller the charger, the more torque it will create down low due to the reaching of full spool in the lower RPM range. GTM's rotrex is pushing more air at lower RPM due to its size. Conversely, the Stillen (Vortech) blower is taking longer to reach full spool due to it being fairly large. This easily explains its lower torque below the curve.

Technically we did say that we are right on track for a release in early March. If we really wanted to we could stretch that out until March 14th if we really really wanted to LOL. That would technically still be the first half of March meaning "early" March.

It was absolutely under 10 psi. Keep in mind that the dyno we showed was using the same kit that we plan on sending to CARB for approval. It would be pretty challenging to get a 10 pound kit through CARB.

You are 100% correct and believe me when I say we want this kit out more than anyone. We have had this kit in development for a long time. Unfortunately Steve's GT R race car had to be completed by a certain deadline. Because there were no deadline's for any other R&D project, the GT R took precedence for a few months. We spent about 4 or 5 months tearing apart and rebuilding and developing and testing our GT R and our engineers were buried in that project. Once that car finally left for the rally they were finally able to re-focus their efforts back to the supercharger.

You can do it with less than 10psi.

You are getting mixed up with spooling time vs. size of a turbo charger when looking at that graph. A sc's size has nothing to do with when it spools, it is mechanically driven, so what you want to talk about is power delivery and the ramp effect of the gearing within the scharger.

Easily explains it? The similarities with a turbo is in the way power is delivered. Since it is a compressor wheel, it will compress more air the faster it spins, like a turbo would as it spools up. That's about where the similarities end though because there is no hotside wheel that needs to be spun and spooled by exhaust gas...There is no lag, there is only RPM/Size/Gearing/wheel design.

Kyle how does psi matter in making a kit CARB legal? Does it have to do with emmissions? Im asking cuz I would need a CARB legal kit but would want it as high a psi as possible, to a point of course.

So, then why not tout the PSI? What is the big secret? BTW, I don't see getting a 10psi kit past CARB. Vortech has already done it with some of their T-trim blowers, IIRC.

Really, what are we looking at here? More or less than 8psi? This question can be answered without giving away the 'trade secret'.

Are you kidding? Of course an SC's size has to do when it spools. Bigger compressor wheel, less CFM at lower RPM. Hence the reason why you can change either the pulley size that drives it OR the compressor size, itself, to change key aspects of air delivery. It really doesn't matter if drive is coming from a belt or from exhaust. Key physics do not change.

Analogy - A bike wheel spun by a chain and crank. The larger the wheel, the slower its rotation at a given speed of crank spin. Change to a smaller wheel and what do you get? Faster spinning wheel. Now imagine these wheels are compressor fans...which is going to produce more CFM at a constant lower speed or as the RPMs ramp up? The truth is, it takes the larger Vortech more RPMs to push the same CFM as the smaller compressor of the Rotrex at lower RPMs. It's not a huge amount, but definitely significant enough to show the differences in torque. The plus side of this? More power to be had when running higher boost as the larger blower will not run out of steam as quickly.

And, I don't think anyone at Stillen would disagree.

More boost = more fuel to run safe. More fuel means more emmissions.

Also some s/c require more load to spin, the traction drive on the other s/c is advertised to require less load to spin resulting in cleaner exhaust and different responce. That's why they load up your car on a small dyno in CA to test the emmisions. Either way if it passes it passes.

gotcha

Hmm, You change the pulley to change the multiplier effect of the gear size differences and therefore the speed at which the compressor wheel is moving. Higher speed will yield more boost as long as the turbine wheel is within its efficiency range.

Changing the housing would be like getting a different trim and thats the same as getting a whole different supercharger.

You made your post sound like you were talking about spooling when you said "full spool". I don't know if you know this, but spooling refers to the amount of time it takes air exiting your engine to spin up (spool up) the exhaust turbine on a turbo. You are talking about a supercharger spooling? It doesnt spool, it spins up and down with engine speed. That engine speed + gear ratios between the crank pulley and the sc's pulley is what creates a certain speed in the compressor wheel. You are right about one thing though, the housing does affect the way power is delivered because different sized compressor wheels have different effects, speed being the same, with relation to their size. I didnt say it didnt, I said it doesnt have a difference on the "spool" of it because it is belt driven.

The size of the compressor wheel has no bearing on its speed. OK yea the tips of the blades are spinning faster because they are traveling more distance in the same rotation, but thats not what we are talking about here. Whether the compressor wheel is 2 inches in diameter or 4, its still spinning at a certain RPM that is produced by the gearing size differences in the pulleys. A bigger wheel should in theory move more air at the same RPM as a smaller wheel, granted I think each size probably has a different peak efficiency speed, I don't know, I didnt study turbines or fluid dynamics in college. Remember we arent changing the compressor wheel size when you upgrade, you usually change the pulley size to increase the multiplier effect and speed up the compressor per a given RPM and therefore making more boost. That is why bigger housings make more power, because they can move more air per rpm than the smaller housing. In other words they make more boost per rpm. You would only move up in housing when you have maxed out the efficiency zone/speed of the smaller housing.

You even brought up turbos and you are confusing the size thing with the SC. The turbo's are the ones that will produce boost quicker when they are smaller, but thats not because of the smaller compressor housing, its because of the smaller size of the hotside that needs to be filled up and spun up with exhaust air. The smaller that is the quicker the shaft spins up the quicker the compressor builds boost.