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Nissan 370Z Forum (http://www.the370z.com/)
-   Forced Induction (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/)
-   -   Preparation for the STILLEN supercharger (http://www.the370z.com/forced-induction/12373-preparation-stillen-supercharger.html)

shumby 03-05-2010 11:24 AM
ya but how is this all going to affect my headlight fluid?

G Fo12ce 03-05-2010 11:28 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shumby (Post 430204)
ya but how is this all going to affect my headlight fluid?
You need to get baffled healights. The force from the extra HP may force the fluid toward the back of the housing during acceleration resulting in a loss of fluid out the bulb socket.:tup:

shumby 03-05-2010 11:29 AM
damn it i knew something like that would happen

xiven 03-05-2010 11:31 AM
i'm missing something

Kyle@STILLEN 03-05-2010 12:02 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Fo12ce (Post 430175)
More boost = more fuel to run safe. More fuel means more emmissions.
Exactly!

shumby 03-05-2010 12:04 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by xiven (Post 430213)
i'm missing something

you have mot checked your headlight fluid lately?:shakes head:

G Fo12ce 03-05-2010 12:41 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Zsteve (Post 430184)
gotcha
By the way there are also down sides to the "other" S/C design as well. So I was just trying to give some info, not taking sides lol, before someone jumps on me for being a bandwagoner.....

RCZ 03-05-2010 01:11 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shumby (Post 430211)
damn it i knew something like that would happen
Don't forget the boost fluid too. We might need a boost fluid cooler...

370zproject 03-05-2010 01:16 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shumby (Post 430211)
damn it i knew something like that would happen
yea i took my car in they put my left tire on my right side and my right tire on the left side!!!

stormcrow 03-05-2010 02:29 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 430200)
Hmm, You change the pulley to change the multiplier effect of the gear size differences and therefore the speed at which the compressor wheel is moving. Higher speed will yield more boost as long as the turbine wheel is within its efficiency range.

Changing the housing would be like getting a different trim and thats the same as getting a whole different supercharger.

You made your post sound like you were talking about spooling when you said "full spool". I don't know if you know this, but spooling refers to the amount of time it takes air exiting your engine to spin up (spool up) the exhaust turbine on a turbo. You are talking about a supercharger spooling? It doesnt spool, it spins up and down with engine speed. That engine speed + gear ratios between the crank pulley and the sc's pulley is what creates a certain speed in the compressor wheel. You are right about one thing though, the housing does affect the way power is delivered because different sized compressor wheels have different effects, speed being the same, with relation to their size. I didnt say it didnt, I said it doesnt have a difference on the "spool" of it because it is belt driven.

The size of the compressor wheel has no bearing on its speed. OK yea the tips of the blades are spinning faster because they are traveling more distance in the same rotation, but thats not what we are talking about here. Whether the compressor wheel is 2 inches in diameter or 4, its still spinning at a certain RPM that is produced by the gearing size differences in the pulleys. A bigger wheel should in theory move more air at the same RPM as a smaller wheel, granted I think each size probably has a different peak efficiency speed, I don't know, I didnt study turbines or fluid dynamics in college. Remember we arent changing the compressor wheel size when you upgrade, you usually change the pulley size to increase the multiplier effect and speed up the compressor per a given RPM and therefore making more boost. That is why bigger housings make more power, because they can move more air per rpm than the smaller housing. In other words they make more boost per rpm. You would only move up in housing when you have maxed out the efficiency zone/speed of the smaller housing.

You even brought up turbos and you are confusing the size thing with the SC. The turbo's are the ones that will produce boost quicker when they are smaller, but thats not because of the smaller compressor housing, its because of the smaller size of the hotside that needs to be filled up and spun up with exhaust air. The smaller that is the quicker the shaft spins up the quicker the compressor builds boost.
I actually think we are both speaking about the same thing here. By "spool" i meant reaching optimum RPMs to produce Xpsi. Granted the word is more befitting the turbo application, but SCs do spool. Given it is by motor RPM and not exhaust.

My point is that given the pulley and compressor size differences between the Vortech blower and the Rotrex of the two competing kits, the torque curve differential is explanable by the amount of CFM moved at lower RPM ranges by each. Again, no one from Stillen has responded stating that I am incorrect.

That said, I am still waiting for Stillen to respond to the PSI levels and why it's so important to keep them from the masses until a "Press Release." This is a bit confusing. I am also waiting for a response on whether or not Vortech has ever released a kit running 10psi or better that was CARB legal. (I already know the answer to this one)

Kyle@STILLEN 03-05-2010 02:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 430419)
That said, I am still waiting for Stillen to respond to the PSI levels and why it's so important to keep them from the masses until a "Press Release." This is a bit confusing. I am also waiting for a response on whether or not Vortech has ever released a kit running 10psi or better that was CARB legal. (I already know the answer to this one)
We will release our boost number, in our press release. It's not like we think we have some magic amazing boost number. Obviously it's above 4 pounds and below 10. We just prefer to announce that number in our press release.

To be honest, I have absolutely no idea how much boost Vortech has used in some of their previous kits. That would be a question for Vortech. Keep in mind this is not a Vortech kit...This is a Stillen kit utilizing a Vortech compressor. All of the engineering, testing, and development has been done by Stillen.

G Fo12ce 03-05-2010 03:39 PM
No magic number, no sale. Every Stillen S/C should include a magic # in the box!

G37Sam 03-05-2010 04:19 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 430448)
We will release our boost number, in our press release. It's not like we think we have some magic amazing boost number. Obviously it's above 4 pounds and below 10. We just prefer to announce that number in our press release.
Nice, we're getting there.. is it above 7 and below 9? :p

G Fo12ce 03-05-2010 04:36 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G37Sam (Post 430545)
Nice, we're getting there.. is it above 7 and below 9? :p
FAIL lol. He can still get you with decimal points, now he can answer with between 7.1 & 8.9.

roplusbee 03-05-2010 05:31 PM
:icon18:

cotizi 03-05-2010 05:35 PM
"Obviously it's above 4 pounds and below 10" (4+10) /2 = 7 psi. Done!

kdoske 03-05-2010 05:50 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by cotizi (Post 430607)
"Obviously it's above 4 pounds and below 10" (4+10) /2 = 7 psi. Done!
PSI averages, awesome!

stormcrow 03-05-2010 06:28 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 430448)
We will release our boost number, in our press release. It's not like we think we have some magic amazing boost number. Obviously it's above 4 pounds and below 10. We just prefer to announce that number in our press release.

To be honest, I have absolutely no idea how much boost Vortech has used in some of their previous kits. That would be a question for Vortech. Keep in mind this is not a Vortech kit...This is a Stillen kit utilizing a Vortech compressor. All of the engineering, testing, and development has been done by Stillen.
Kyle, as much as I appreciate your candor, I still cannot grasp the reasoning behind not stating the actual PSI used to reach 422whp. I, as probably does everyone else reading this thread, understand that the boost level used to reach this number may change with the release of the kit. Whether it goes up or down in the production kit isn't as important to me as knowing what PSI was utilized to create the dyno posted in this thread. Again, I cannot fathom any legitimate reason (but, I can certainly think of plenty of illegitimate ones) why this number has not been posted. It truly does leave those of us (well, at least myself...I hate to speak for others) on the fence about which kit to utilize wondering what Stillen has to hide.

If you can give me a logical reason for waiting for the press release to state PSI after having posted a dyno chart, I will be satiated. Until then, I will probably continue to pose the same question over and over again. :)

And I understand this is a Stillen kit. But, you quoted another member here on their reasoning behind why 10psi would not = CARB legal. I see this as you insinuating that this is the reason why 10psi or better was not used to reach the horsepower shown in the posted dyno. I am not comparing your kit to the Vortech kit. I am merely stating that 10psi can pass CARB and I honestly do not buy that your dyno pull posted was done on anything less. It it was less, it was certainly more than 8psi.

The reason I am so verbose in my questioning is due to having been promised the world by Stillen salesmen when I researched and purchased one of your SC kits for my now sold Pathfinder. What I was sold and what I received were two completely separate items. Not physically, but in quality and performance. Having been in this game for quite some time, I am looking for complete transparency from vendors.

Speaking of tranparency, keep in mind that whatever PSI is posted in the 'Press Release' will have to reproduce 422whp all day long or people will feel duped.

Kyle@STILLEN 03-05-2010 07:53 PM
There are a few reasons why we have not released what PSI that test was at. The primary reason for releasing the dyno without boost numbers to follow was simply to show the capabilities of this kit without even pushing it hard. I assure you, that dyno was performed at less than 10 psi.

The main reason we do not want to release a horsepower figure in relation to a boost level is because the car we were testing on (G37 auto trans. with large 20" show wheels) was less than ideal. We are currently in the process of switching the kit to the manual gearbox 370Z with stock wheels which should be improved due to its more efficient drivetrain. It is very possible that running less boost on our Z will produce the same numbers that we saw on the G and people would say but wait...the horsepower is the same but your boost is lower...So, rather than having any confusion at all, we are switching to the more efficient car and from here on out will stay with the Z.

Also, that was a prototype run...Look at the date on the dyno, that was back on the 19th. Since then we've changed our prototype charge pipe and a few other pieces.

All we wanted to do was show the early development of the supercharger to show that it has more potential than the VQ35 supercharger did. Again, we were running less than 10 psi, and we are doing all of our tuning on 91 octane pump gas.

When we have our finished production kit we will have a finalized dyno showing the horsepower of the kit and of course we will list what psi we are running. Right now, it's too early to confuse everything until the kit is completed.

In regards to running 10 psi on other Vortech kits. I don't know why Vortech chooses to run 10 psi. I assume it's because they feel that the engines can handle it pretty safely. Perhaps it's because the compression ratio on the Mustang GT is only 9.8:1 which is significantly lower than the compression ratio of the VQ37 at 11:1

I agree with you completely. The percentage gain between the base test and the final test after installation of a supercharger should be the same as the manufacturer's after taking everything into consideration. To say that the final rear wheel number should be at least identical I can't really agree with because there are a lot of things that need to be considered such as elevation, air temperature, transmission, wheels...But yes, the percentage of horsepower gain between baselines should be relatively similar.

stormcrow 03-05-2010 08:28 PM
Understood. But, again, stating what PSI you used on the test G37 to ascertain the dyno posted should not be an issue. I don't see that this will confuse anyone nor do I see that it is relevant to the 370Z kit that is yet to be installed/tuned/tested. (Granted they are the same kit with exceptions being different fuel delivery and possibly the loss of the strut bar.) I honestly would just like to know what PSI is required to achieve 420+ at the wheel with 20" wheels. A lot of people have these on the 370Z, as well.

Also, as a potential repeat client, I would love to see transparency when you post dynos. Witholding key information as to how the quoted power was obtained is not transparent.

And don't mistake my meaning - I don't mean that wheel horse power numbers should be identical...but, more of what you stated of the percentages you purport in your advertisements (threads) should be reproducable by most, if not all, who purchase the kit. This wasn't the case for me in my last experience with a Stillen produced SC kit. Even when running 93 octane and not the piss-water you Cali guys call fuel. :)

But, I digress. Hopefully we will see some honest and complete posts about the previous testing and any future testing. :cheers:

Buddy Revell 03-05-2010 08:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Kyle@STILLEN (Post 430761)
The main reason we do not want to release a horsepower figure in relation to a boost level is because the car we were testing on (G37 auto trans. with large 20" show wheels) was less than ideal.
Is it cool if you post the psi on the G37 forums, since quite a few of the guys over there run on 20s and have auto trannies? Could be useful info for those guys.

kdoske 03-05-2010 09:24 PM
lol, guess Stillen should of released nothing. Sounds like they would have been better off.

:eekdance:

Xan 03-05-2010 09:46 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by kdoske (Post 430840)
lol, guess Stillen should of released nothing. Sounds like they would have been better off.

:eekdance:
Yes, you'd think people give them credit for sharing information all together.

Instead they focus on the information they don't have, think of dubious reasons why they don't have the info.

In the end this is information they will have before they can actually buy the product anyways....So why make such a point that you don't have the info today.... I don't get it.... :icon14:

Patience is a virtue...

RCZ 03-05-2010 10:01 PM
^ no one gets it. Kyle has a LOT more patience than I do. I would've told him to f off a long time ago.

NYBladeZ 03-05-2010 11:12 PM
Keep up the good work guys, we're looking forward to the S/C battle, I know a longer wait on our behalf is needed to ensure the quality and reliability of a product.

Red370 03-05-2010 11:15 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 430862)
^ no one gets it. Kyle has a LOT more patience than I do. I would've told him to f off a long time ago.
:iagree: People, be patient, Stillen is working with some great stuff here, wait for the press release, stop the speculation and let them finalize everything! Damn!

Brazilbro 03-06-2010 12:20 AM
:iagree::werd:

rcm2525 03-06-2010 05:16 AM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Red370 (Post 430954)
:iagree: People, be patient, Stillen is working with some great stuff here, wait for the press release, stop the speculation and let them finalize everything! Damn!
:iagree: And stop the trolling. I for one am sick of the BIRD crap. Let's wait and see. But I guess some here just need to believe in conspiracies.

shumby 03-06-2010 06:15 AM
the problem is tyhat stillen has their sales men on here selling there SC and not the guys that are developing it. So really what do we expect.

G37Sam 03-06-2010 06:18 AM
Even though he might seem like he's trolling he does make quite some valid points.

What are we 5th graders with low IQs to get "confused". I feel offended lol

I still can't find a reason why the boost pressure was omitted honestly, reminds me of the days back in primary school when I gave in my report card with a few grades scribbled out, and it sure wasn't because my old man was going to get confused lol

Zguy 03-06-2010 11:18 AM
lol +1 :icon18::icon18::icon18:

G Fo12ce 03-06-2010 11:44 AM
Storm, not trying to pick a fight at all but here is how I see it.

Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 430794)
I don't see that this will confuse anyone nor do I see that it is relevant to the 370Z kit that is yet to be installed/tuned/tested. (Granted they are the same kit with exceptions being different fuel delivery and possibly the loss of the strut bar.)
You aknowlege the G37 info may not be a relevant comparison with the Z (the car you have) yet you are still grinding him for the PSI #. It won't be long hang in there and stop pouting. The differences you pointed out in fuel deilvery ect may make a difference then the argument will have been pointless. Either way they are going to do what they want and he said no already...
Quote:
I honestly would just like to know what PSI is required to achieve 420+ at the wheel with 20" wheels. A lot of people have these on the 370Z, as well
They are not going to test every possible combo. If I were you (and I'm saying this becasue we have the same car) I'd be more concerned weather STILLEN will offer (or research the need for) a tune for NISMO models if need be. My car base line dyno'd around 300HP to the wheels bone stock and that's not all from a Nismo exhaust. The tune is differnet and makes a difference. Thier tune may or may not be ideal for your car.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Xan (Post 430851)
Yes, you'd think people give them credit for sharing information all together.

Instead they focus on the information they don't have, think of dubious reasons why they don't have the info.

In the end this is information they will have before they can actually buy the product anyways....So why make such a point that you don't have the info today.... I don't get it.... :icon14:

Patience is a virtue...
:iagree:

Quote:
Originally Posted by RCZ (Post 430862)
^ no one gets it. Kyle has a LOT more patience than I do. I would've told him to f off a long time ago.
Kyle has showed some wisdom in not getting involved with some of the drama on the other thread. Same applys here. Also you don't want to piss of any potential customers especially in times like these. I'm sure they all count, they are a business.

Quote:
Originally Posted by shumby (Post 431478)
the problem is that stillen has their sales men on here selling there SC and not the guys that are developing it. So really what do we expect.
Traditionally engineers and technicians don't do marketing, promotion, or sales. Mostly because it's rare you have a guy that's good at or has time for both. I don't think Kyle is a salesman per say. Sorry if you were trying to be more annonymous Kyle LOL, but for those who are unaware Kyle's last name is MILLEN. Only an assumption, but you are talking to the guy who will likely some day take over when Steve Millen decides to call it quits. I'm sure he has more influence so maybe be thankful you have him here versus a "salesman". Just my :twocents:

This thread is going to die soon anyway when they make a new official release so all you F5'ers are going to have to deal until then lol.

shumby 03-06-2010 11:54 AM
bla bla bla?

CBRich 03-06-2010 12:24 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by stormcrow (Post 430794)
Understood. But, again, stating what PSI you used on the test G37 to ascertain the dyno posted should not be an issue. I don't see that this will confuse anyone nor do I see that it is relevant to the 370Z kit that is yet to be installed/tuned/tested. (Granted they are the same kit with exceptions being different fuel delivery and possibly the loss of the strut bar.) I honestly would just like to know what PSI is required to achieve 420+ at the wheel with 20" wheels. A lot of people have these on the 370Z, as well.

Also, as a potential repeat client, I would love to see transparency when you post dynos. Witholding key information as to how the quoted power was obtained is not transparent.

And don't mistake my meaning - I don't mean that wheel horse power numbers should be identical...but, more of what you stated of the percentages you purport in your advertisements (threads) should be reproducable by most, if not all, who purchase the kit. This wasn't the case for me in my last experience with a Stillen produced SC kit. Even when running 93 octane and not the piss-water you Cali guys call fuel. :)

But, I digress. Hopefully we will see some honest and complete posts about the previous testing and any future testing. :cheers:
Seriously? He's not gonna state it until the press release. Get over it for God's sake. Kyle won't say it because he's a proper businessman but I can. Screw Off.

travisjb 03-06-2010 12:38 PM
+1 ... it's pretty easy to spot the difference between curiosity and mischief in these posts... amusing to a point, but I think we're beyond that point

G Fo12ce 03-06-2010 12:38 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by shumby (Post 431728)
bla bla bla?
Don't you have headlamp fluid to check, :gtfo2:

Xan 03-06-2010 12:42 PM
(in an effort to get this thread back on track)
we know Stillen has released all that they are comfortable with before the soon to be press release. So let's get of that subject and focus on the fun.


For those who are considering this SC, what is your goal in either HP or track/drag time or something else?

And what other mods are you planning to run to make the most of the SC?
Are you planning on replacing the clutch?

shumby 03-06-2010 12:47 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by G Fo12ce (Post 431786)
Don't you have headlamp fluid to check, :gtfo2:


lool. i just ordered some from spawn and HP. see if i get it.



(derailed again?)

96bigbody 03-06-2010 01:09 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by Xan (Post 431794)
(in an effort to get this thread back on track)
we know Stillen has released all that they are comfortable with before the soon to be press release. So let's get of that subject and focus on the fun.


For those who are considering this SC, what is your goal in either HP or track/drag time or something else?

And what other mods are you planning to run to make the most of the SC?
Are you planning on replacing the clutch?
I need a 11sec slip..

Xan 03-06-2010 01:53 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by 96bigbody (Post 431812)
I need a 11sec slip..
Then you'd better start building the engine. :)

I'm not a drag expert, but I would think you would need +500 HP and torque at the wheels to get a 370 over the line in 11 seconds


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