complete engine overhaul questions.

Skeeterbop · 12-03-2011, 12:08 AM

Who said anything about 1000hp? I may have forgotten something but iirc, Chii stated he was aiming for a 500hp N/A build and I personally don't have any power goals. I do love a good turbo setup but on this car I want to leave it N/A once i get into any major engine mods.
--edit--
never mind, I just missed the 1k hp comment. I'm not sure about 1k hp, but you could still put a couple smallish turbos on and run a low boost setup and make a decent bump in power depending on how good the internals are. I personally won't ever put turbos on mine though, so it is a moot point for me.

Skeeterbop · 12-03-2011, 12:54 AM

Hoping to hear back from a few emails I have sent. I'm trying to get a ground work laid out so I'll know what kind of time frames I'm looking at. From my research pretty much everything will be custom made unless you plan on using the GTM stroker kit. Other than that, unless we can use the VQ35 parts (which i don't see why you couldn't for some things), there just isn't much out there for our VQ37VHR.

chii370 · 12-22-2011, 03:11 PM

ive sent a few emails to GTM as well, so far its been 2 weeks and no reply. well, good news on the job so far. might become a state trooper, out of 2500 aplicants 80 of us were chosen to go to the next step. physical test, knowledge test, and a 600 question psych eval...... it took like 10 hours and sucked a lot. But if i pass that, then the polygraph, and background "not a problem prior military" i will be goin to the academy in april. that being said there will be 5.5 months where i CANT spend any money since we dont get to leave lol. so i will have a metric **** ton of cash to drop all at once on the project and get it off the ground.

Jeffblue · 12-22-2011, 03:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skeeterbop

I still would love to see a N/A built 370. I don't understand the sticking point on numbers though. Every dyno is going to be a little different. hell it could say i dyno'd at 200hp, and if i slap on the SC and the same dyno says i now have 350hp then i would be quite pleased. Also I bet my Z would appear to be way low on power if I had it dyno'd since I'm at 4k feet. Anyways, have you decided how you are going to do this build?

i

everytime i see someone say 'slap on' a supercharger or turbos.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

got a point there skeeter, never even considered the altitude thing. but yeah, i see what your saying. and ive had the hornet on a mobile "trailer" dyno once and it had quite a different number as the other i took it too. so it is what it is, who cares. i just want to be able to do it at the very least as a proof of concept. its not for braging rights or anything. i would just like to have something a little more "unique" you know? stupid expensive..... but unique.

seriously.... how cool would a 450-500hp all motor z be. and if in the future you wanted to get retarded with it.... your already set up for a platform that could handle in the 1k hp range. .... thats not what i want. but im just saying.

a fully built high revving NA motor is not at all set up for forced induction.

theres correction factors for a reason. when you dyno in extreme heat, cold low/high altitude, the dyno factors that in. Thats how people tweak dynos so that fools believe that their car made more power than it actually did. if you tell the dyno that your car is at 5000ft and its 100*F but you are actualy at sea level and its 60*f, you'll make a lot of power. you can get a dyno to read whatever you want.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gearhead51

Turbos not for daily drivers? I have 342k mi, 203k mi, and 298k on three of the turbos in my driveway not to mention semis with a million miles on them. Finding a N/A engine that makes STRONG power with that many miles is rare. I could recommend a few good books packed full of sound engineering.

Btw, most of the things you will do to make high N/A hp is the opposite to what you would do for a FI build, so I'm not sure how you would get to 1000hp.

Enjoy your N/A build.

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

physical test, knowledge test, and a 600 question psych eval......

for your sake, i hope the knowledge test has nothing to do with vehicles or engine building.

Mike@GTM · 12-22-2011, 06:17 PM

Chii, I apologize for not getting a response to your e-mail. We do receive a very high volume of e-mails and although I searched diligently through my inbox, I couldn't find an e-mail that seemed like it would be from you.

After having read through this thread, I can see you have somewhat more realistic expectations from a naturally aspirated build. As many members here have pointed out, Nissan has done a pretty good job of getting quite a bit of naturally aspirated power out of their V6 with a nice broad power band.

As most people here have pointed out, it doesn't make financial sense to do an all out N/A build on this engine. In fact, we have a G35 here that the owner has dumped copious amounts of money into chasing the big N/A build. In the end, we're putting our supercharger on it because that car has no bottom end torque and just doesn't make a lot of power, especially for all the noise it makes. All bark and no bite.

If you are really set on doing an all out N/A build on a 370Z, we can do it. Sure, it hasn't been done and very few would follow you because the cost/benefit ratio is a real turn-off when compared to FI.

Yes, we can open up the ports for more flow and install larger valves, but remember they have a cost: lost torque at low rpm's. Sure, you'll make up some of that lost port velocity with the added displacement and higher compression, but there is always a trade-off.

Now, I noticed some people have thought of ditching VVEL and going with HR (or God forbid, DE) heads and aggressive cams, but you're really throwing the baby out with the bath water with that move IMO. The VHR heads have a lot of improvements over the HR heads. Better combustion chamber design, better cooling jacket design to increase resistance to detonation and better port design as well. Sure, the VVEL system is complicated and is a bit of an unknown variable when trying to build an all out N/A build, but since it hasn't been attempted, I honestly think it's worth it to see how it plays out...at least once.

I'll be honest with you. I usually steer people in the direction of forced induction because most inquiries related to N/A builds are people trying to get an extra 100bhp for a couple grand. It's just not going to happen. The other argument I hear often is "reliability" and as several people in this thread have said, once you open up that motor, you have lost some of that OEM reliability. Especially when you start running higher compression and spinning the motor to high enough rpm to start making power.

Currently, we are working on a project in our shop that the customer put no limit on the expense to build a 500hp N/A engine. Here are some of the specifics of the engine:

2008 350Z HR
GTM Competition Engine with 3.8L of displacement and 9,000rpm redline and 14:1 compression.
Custom Cams
All variable cam timing is completely disabled
Individual Throttle Bodies
Dry Sump Oiling system

This engine alone is $35,000 and the whole project is in the high $50k range. It is a full race engine build and can only drink race gas and will have a peaky, narrow power band. Such a build is not street-able at all.

That's to give you an idea of what it takes to get 500hp at the flywheel on a naturally aspirated V6.

VQStryker · 12-22-2011, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chii370

ive sent a few emails to GTM as well, so far its been 2 weeks and no reply. well, good news on the job so far. might become a state trooper, out of 2500 aplicants 80 of us were chosen to go to the next step. physical test, knowledge test, and a 600 question psych eval...... it took like 10 hours and sucked a lot. But if i pass that, then the polygraph, and background "not a problem prior military" i will be goin to the academy in april. that being said there will be 5.5 months where i CANT spend any money since we dont get to leave lol. so i will have a metric **** ton of cash to drop all at once on the project and get it off the ground.

Got to be patient when you email GTM, they are very busy but will reply to you and answer your questions.

I thought a 300 question phyc test was bad! good job and good luck!

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

This engine alone is $35,000 and the whole project is in the high $50k range. It is a full race engine build and can only drink race gas and will have a peaky, narrow power band. Such a build is not street-able at all.

That's to give you an idea of what it takes to get 500hp at the flywheel on a naturally aspirated V6.

thats some bank son.

m4a1mustang · 12-22-2011, 09:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

Chii, I apologize for not getting a response to your e-mail. We do receive a very high volume of e-mails and although I searched diligently through my inbox, I couldn't find an e-mail that seemed like it would be from you.

After having read through this thread, I can see you have somewhat more realistic expectations from a naturally aspirated build. As many members here have pointed out, Nissan has done a pretty good job of getting quite a bit of naturally aspirated power out of their V6 with a nice broad power band.

As most people here have pointed out, it doesn't make financial sense to do an all out N/A build on this engine. In fact, we have a G35 here that the owner has dumped copious amounts of money into chasing the big N/A build. In the end, we're putting our supercharger on it because that car has no bottom end torque and just doesn't make a lot of power, especially for all the noise it makes. All bark and no bite.

If you are really set on doing an all out N/A build on a 370Z, we can do it. Sure, it hasn't been done and very few would follow you because the cost/benefit ratio is a real turn-off when compared to FI.

Yes, we can open up the ports for more flow and install larger valves, but remember they have a cost: lost torque at low rpm's. Sure, you'll make up some of that lost port velocity with the added displacement and higher compression, but there is always a trade-off.

Now, I noticed some people have thought of ditching VVEL and going with HR (or God forbid, DE) heads and aggressive cams, but you're really throwing the baby out with the bath water with that move IMO. The VHR heads have a lot of improvements over the HR heads. Better combustion chamber design, better cooling jacket design to increase resistance to detonation and better port design as well. Sure, the VVEL system is complicated and is a bit of an unknown variable when trying to build an all out N/A build, but since it hasn't been attempted, I honestly think it's worth it to see how it plays out...at least once.

I'll be honest with you. I usually steer people in the direction of forced induction because most inquiries related to N/A builds are people trying to get an extra 100bhp for a couple grand. It's just not going to happen. The other argument I hear often is "reliability" and as several people in this thread have said, once you open up that motor, you have lost some of that OEM reliability. Especially when you start running higher compression and spinning the motor to high enough rpm to start making power.

Currently, we are working on a project in our shop that the customer put no limit on the expense to build a 500hp N/A engine. Here are some of the specifics of the engine:

2008 350Z HR
GTM Competition Engine with 3.8L of displacement and 9,000rpm redline and 14:1 compression.
Custom Cams
All variable cam timing is completely disabled
Individual Throttle Bodies
Dry Sump Oiling system

This engine alone is $35,000 and the whole project is in the high $50k range. It is a full race engine build and can only drink race gas and will have a peaky, narrow power band. Such a build is not street-able at all.

That's to give you an idea of what it takes to get 500hp at the flywheel on a naturally aspirated V6.

Mike, props to you for this post.

KaienZ34 · 12-22-2011, 10:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Mike, props to you for this post.

..reps to mike

FL 4Motion · 12-22-2011, 10:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Mike, props to you for this post.

I dunno why, but reading that post made me want want a crazy n/a build even more!

KaienZ34 · 12-22-2011, 10:26 PM

50k and it's all yours.

m4a1mustang · 12-22-2011, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion

I dunno why, but reading that post made me want want a crazy n/a build even more!

Let's do it

FL 4Motion · 12-22-2011, 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by m4a1mustang

Let's do it

right on, you put up the $$$, and I'll put up the car.

KingZee · 12-22-2011, 10:42 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion

right on, you put up the $$$, and I'll put up the car.

makes sense

m4a1mustang · 12-22-2011, 10:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FL 4Motion

right on, you put up the $$$, and I'll put up the car.

This project suddenly sounds less appealing to me for some reason.

Jeffblue · 12-22-2011, 10:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mike@GTM

This engine alone is $35,000 and the whole project is in the high $50k range.

Put it on my tab at Harry's

12-03-2011, 12:08 AM	#91 (permalink)
Skeeterbop A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Age: 41 Posts: 1,440 Drives: 2011 GM 370 base SP Rep Power: 17	Who said anything about 1000hp? I may have forgotten something but iirc, Chii stated he was aiming for a 500hp N/A build and I personally don't have any power goals. I do love a good turbo setup but on this car I want to leave it N/A once i get into any major engine mods. --edit-- never mind, I just missed the 1k hp comment. I'm not sure about 1k hp, but you could still put a couple smallish turbos on and run a low boost setup and make a decent bump in power depending on how good the internals are. I personally won't ever put turbos on mine though, so it is a moot point for me. __________________ Srenity: "Yeah no rest needed to spread the love when your 20 that's for sure...." Last edited by Skeeterbop; 12-03-2011 at 12:11 AM.

12-03-2011, 12:54 AM	#92 (permalink)
Skeeterbop A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Fort Bliss, TX Age: 41 Posts: 1,440 Drives: 2011 GM 370 base SP Rep Power: 17	Hoping to hear back from a few emails I have sent. I'm trying to get a ground work laid out so I'll know what kind of time frames I'm looking at. From my research pretty much everything will be custom made unless you plan on using the GTM stroker kit. Other than that, unless we can use the VQ35 parts (which i don't see why you couldn't for some things), there just isn't much out there for our VQ37VHR. __________________ Srenity: "Yeah no rest needed to spread the love when your 20 that's for sure...."

12-22-2011, 10:26 PM	#100 (permalink)
KaienZ34 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Oct 2009 Location: LA. not L.a. Posts: 21,652 Drives: Z34 Tour/Sport Rep Power: 178	50k and it's all yours. __________________ *"These Violent Delights Have Violent Ends"* http://www.the370z.com/members/kaienz34-albums-z34.html

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12-22-2011, 03:11 PM	#93 (permalink)
chii370 Track Member Join Date: Jul 2010 Location: . Posts: 642 Drives: . Rep Power: 16	ive sent a few emails to GTM as well, so far its been 2 weeks and no reply. well, good news on the job so far. might become a state trooper, out of 2500 aplicants 80 of us were chosen to go to the next step. physical test, knowledge test, and a 600 question psych eval...... it took like 10 hours and sucked a lot. But if i pass that, then the polygraph, and background "not a problem prior military" i will be goin to the academy in april. that being said there will be 5.5 months where i CANT spend any money since we dont get to leave lol. so i will have a metric **** ton of cash to drop all at once on the project and get it off the ground.

12-22-2011, 06:17 PM	#95 (permalink)
Mike@GTM Not an active Vendor. DO NOT BUY Join Date: Sep 2009 Location: California Posts: 391 Drives: '13 Hot Lava FR-S Rep Power: 17	Chii, I apologize for not getting a response to your e-mail. We do receive a very high volume of e-mails and although I searched diligently through my inbox, I couldn't find an e-mail that seemed like it would be from you. After having read through this thread, I can see you have somewhat more realistic expectations from a naturally aspirated build. As many members here have pointed out, Nissan has done a pretty good job of getting quite a bit of naturally aspirated power out of their V6 with a nice broad power band. As most people here have pointed out, it doesn't make financial sense to do an all out N/A build on this engine. In fact, we have a G35 here that the owner has dumped copious amounts of money into chasing the big N/A build. In the end, we're putting our supercharger on it because that car has no bottom end torque and just doesn't make a lot of power, especially for all the noise it makes. All bark and no bite. If you are really set on doing an all out N/A build on a 370Z, we can do it. Sure, it hasn't been done and very few would follow you because the cost/benefit ratio is a real turn-off when compared to FI. Yes, we can open up the ports for more flow and install larger valves, but remember they have a cost: lost torque at low rpm's. Sure, you'll make up some of that lost port velocity with the added displacement and higher compression, but there is always a trade-off. Now, I noticed some people have thought of ditching VVEL and going with HR (or God forbid, DE) heads and aggressive cams, but you're really throwing the baby out with the bath water with that move IMO. The VHR heads have a lot of improvements over the HR heads. Better combustion chamber design, better cooling jacket design to increase resistance to detonation and better port design as well. Sure, the VVEL system is complicated and is a bit of an unknown variable when trying to build an all out N/A build, but since it hasn't been attempted, I honestly think it's worth it to see how it plays out...at least once. I'll be honest with you. I usually steer people in the direction of forced induction because most inquiries related to N/A builds are people trying to get an extra 100bhp for a couple grand. It's just not going to happen. The other argument I hear often is "reliability" and as several people in this thread have said, once you open up that motor, you have lost some of that OEM reliability. Especially when you start running higher compression and spinning the motor to high enough rpm to start making power. Currently, we are working on a project in our shop that the customer put no limit on the expense to build a 500hp N/A engine. Here are some of the specifics of the engine: 2008 350Z HR GTM Competition Engine with 3.8L of displacement and 9,000rpm redline and 14:1 compression. Custom Cams All variable cam timing is completely disabled Individual Throttle Bodies Dry Sump Oiling system This engine alone is $35,000 and the whole project is in the high $50k range. It is a full race engine build and can only drink race gas and will have a peaky, narrow power band. Such a build is not street-able at all. That's to give you an idea of what it takes to get 500hp at the flywheel on a naturally aspirated V6.