Everyone with oil temp issues

PSDSAINT · 07-15-2009, 01:09 PM

Question, a few years back I didn't buy a new Z because of front end problems that from what I understand were never fixed by Nissan and lots of Z owners were hung out to dry. Do any of you feel this oil temp issue is worth not buying a new Z? I was at the dealer this morning and they look great but this oil heat issue has me worried. What is your spin on buying a new Z?

Robert_Nash · 07-15-2009, 01:52 PM

I can only speak for myself (but that doesn’t mean I don’t have my biases) but I believe that the “oil temperature issue” isn’t much of a problem and is about 90% a matter of perception.

The only 370s which will likely have a true oil temperature problem are those that are tracked - the 370; like the 350 before it and, frankly, like most consumer/street vehicles not purpose built with track use in mind, are always going to need an engine oil cooler…that really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone.

While there are plenty of anecdotal stories; there seems to be little consistency with who is and who isn’t experiencing a problem and all the stories that do exist are just that, stories filtered through each story teller’s frame of reference. I’m not in any way suggesting people are lying; just that “aggressive/very aggressive” driving on a “hot” day can mean vastly different things from person to person. What is truly needed and what hasn’t happened yet, at least as far as I know, is a scientific study under controlled conditions to establish how hot the engine oil gets and under what precise circumstances.

That brings up another point. While there are many, many opinions and feeling about “how hot is too hot”; other than opinions and feelings, I’ve yet to see anyone demonstrate that temperatures, in this engine, and with today’s oils, 220 or 230 or 240 or even up to 260 degree oil temps are truly causing any harm to the engine/engine life. Again, what is really needed is an objective and unemotional study to look at all the factors.

Let’s also remember that Nissan has a solution (or at least a feature) in place to preserve the engine for temps in the 280 and above range in that it limits engine revs until the temp lowers (the “limp” feature). Some feel that could be a safety concern but I’m not so sure; the available power from the 370 at, say, revs limited to 5K still probably gives more performance (acceleration/passing ability, etc.) than many, many vehicles on the road today at 100% of their power so I’m not quite so sure that a decrease in available engine power is really a safety concern. I’ll grant you it’s inconvenient and not fun but I don’t think it’s quite the issue some fell it is.<o></o>

Finally, I leave you with my owe story…I’ve got over 12K miles on my 370Z which has included mountain roads; deserts, many runs down the Tail of the Dragon, stop-and-go interstate traffic and autocrossing and have done it all in Winter, Spring and Summer temps with many days exceeding 100 degrees) and I’m a fairly aggressive driver (although I am not an out of control idiot on public roads)…through all that, I’ve seen my oil temps as high as the 240ish but have never see temps as high as reported by some nor have ever gotten close to limp mode.<o></o>

All that so say, while I’d feel better if my temps never went above 220; I don’t think the “engine oil temperature problem” is really that much of a problem nor do I think someone “shouldn’t” buy a 370 because of it. Also, we know that if oil temps are truly that much of a concern, spending a few hundred more dollars completely fixes the problem; real or otherwise.

So…does any of the above help you? I don’t know…I just offer it an observation after 12K miles and almost 7 months of having my 370.

Phil · 07-15-2009, 03:07 PM

Robert, I can appreciate what you say about your car, but it's not fair to assume that all 370-Z's run at the same temps as yours, from what you have said about yours, I know mine does not. Discounting everybody elses experience based on your car is very frustrating to those of us that truly do have an overheating problem.

Robert_Nash · 07-15-2009, 03:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

Robert, I can appreciate what you say about your car, but it's not fair to assume that all 370-Z's run at the same temps as yours, from what you have said about yours, I know mine does not. Discounting everybody elses experience based on your car is very frustrating to those of us that truly do have an overheating problem.

I'm not trying to negate anyone's experiences but I think my points remain.

To the best of my knowledge...
A. No one has objectively or scientifically demonstrated "how hot is too hot" with regards to today's engines and engine oil or that the temperatures owners are experiencing are actually a danger to the engine.

B. No one has objectively/scientifically/under controlled circumstances demonstrated when/under what conditions the engine oil temperatures rise.

Until the above has been done by someone with no ax to grind; all we have are anecdotal stories and the anecdotal stories that have been presented have been all over the board - pretty much the only consistency rests with those who track their cars. The other obvious problem with anecdotal stories is that it is absolutely impossible to know if what someone is claiming is accurate - again, I'm not trying to insult anyone but this is an internet forum; anyone can say anything so if someone builds an opinion on those stories they don't know if the foundation is, to borrow a phrase, made of sand or of stone.

I think we also need to keep in mind that this site; as do other enthusiasts sites represent a small percentage of the public who own 370s which makes it statistically risky to assume a wide-spread problem.

In any case, I think arguing about it, regardless of one's opinion, is fairly pointless...this horse has been beaten to death until even the blood stains have been separated into their molecular parts.

Live long and prosper.

TheWeatherman · 07-15-2009, 03:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert_Nash

I'm not trying to negate anyone's experiences but I think my points remain.

To the best of my knowledge...
A. No one has objectively or scientifically demonstrated "how hot is too hot" with regards to today's engines and engine oil or that the temperatures owners are experiencing are actually a danger to the engine.

B. No one has objectively/scientifically/under controlled circumstances demonstrated when/under what conditions the engine oil temperatures rise.

Until the above has been done by someone with no ax to grind; all we have are anecdotal stories and the anecdotal stories that have been presented have been all over the board - pretty much the only consistency rests with those who track their cars. The other obvious problem with anecdotal stories is that it is absolutely impossible to know if what someone is claiming is accurate - again, I'm not trying to insult anyone but this is an internet forum; anyone can say anything so if someone builds an opinion on those stories they don't know if the foundation is, to borrow a phrase, made of sand or of stone.

I think we also need to keep in mind that this site; as do other enthusiasts sites represent a small percentage of the public who own 370s which makes it statistically risky to assume a wide-spread problem.

In any case, I think arguing about it, regardless of one's opinion, is fairly pointless...this horse has been beaten to death until even the blood stains have been separated into their molecular parts.

Live long and prosper.

AMEN NASH!

Phil · 07-15-2009, 04:31 PM

You guy's must work for Nissan, if not they should be sending you checks. If there's no issue here, if this is only in other peoples minds, then why did Nissan put oil coolers on all the new Z's they sent out to the magazines for testing, they don't put them on other Nissans when they are being tested, they know there is an issue here, the coolers prove it. You mentioned that there is no scientific, controlled studys on how and when the overheating happens, how about everytime I drive my car. If you were having this issue with your car, that would be all the scientific evidence you would need. You need to study up on engine oils an see how the oil begins to break down when it is overheated to the 240-250 range. At this point, at whatever percent of breakdown, it is lubricating the engine less and less, which leads to engine wear and internal problems.

TheWeatherman · 07-15-2009, 04:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil

You guy's must work for Nissan, if not they should be sending you checks. If there's no issue here, if this is only in other peoples minds, then why did Nissan put oil coolers on all the new Z's they sent out to the magazines for testing, they don't put them on other Nissans when they are being tested, they know there is an issue here, the coolers prove it. You mentioned that there is no scientific, controlled studys on how and when the overheating happens, how about everytime I drive my car. If you were having this issue with your car, that would be all the scientific evidence you would need. You need to study up on engine oils an see how the oil begins to break down when it is overheated to the 240-250 range. At this point, at whatever percent of breakdown, it is lubricating the engine less and less, which leads to engine wear and internal problems.

Nissan already told us. If you're racing the car put on the cooler. Who says oil breaks down at those temps? What oil? Those graphs are so ambiguous. Who did the study? Who says our engine is designed for thick oil? Viscosity is the thickness of the oil. You know, why am I even responding? This was all talked about ad nauseum before. Call Nissan if you're having a problem. Read my posts about my conversation with the quality control engineers. That will answer your questions. Done.

wstar · 07-15-2009, 04:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert_Nash

A. No one has objectively or scientifically demonstrated "how hot is too hot" with regards to today's engines and engine oil or that the temperatures owners are experiencing are actually a danger to the engine.

B. No one has objectively/scientifically/under controlled circumstances demonstrated when/under what conditions the engine oil temperatures rise.

To these points specifically though, this graph says a lot about (A):

And as far as (B) goes, the obvious factors that contribute to a higher oil temp are: Time spent at high RPM values, Ambient temp, airflow to the front of the car (and thus vehicle speed), and engine load (uphill worse than downhill, full throttle worse than half throttle, etc).

Robert_Nash · 07-15-2009, 06:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

...

A) Thanks for the graph but what oil was tested? Was it synthetic or non-synthetic? How old is the data and where does it come from?

I guess what I'm asking is how applicable is that graph to the 370 using a high-quality full synthetic oil?

I think another appropriate question would be, and I don't have any idea what the answer would be; how much in terms of days/weeks/years/miles driven will the "Max Life" be compromised if, for example, your engine is always running at 230 rather than the max life you would get if it's always running at 180?

In other words, does it mean you'll get 1,000 less miles in total out of the life of the engine or 50,000 less? Don't we need to know that to properly gauge just how significant all this is?

B) I think we can assume all those are factors but I don't know that they explain why some people seem to have "constant" problems while other don't seem to have any.

Modshack · 07-15-2009, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert_Nash

B) I think we can assume all those are factors but I don't know that they explain why some people seem to have "constant" problems while other don't seem to have any.

Funny about that Huh? Chances are this car will be long gone from your personal stable long before any oil temps issues (real or perceived) rear their ugly head...

37Z · 07-15-2009, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

To these points specifically though, this graph says a lot about (A):

And as far as (B) goes, the obvious factors that contribute to a higher oil temp are: Time spent at high RPM values, Ambient temp, airflow to the front of the car (and thus vehicle speed), and engine load (uphill worse than downhill, full throttle worse than half throttle, etc).

Is the reference graph results for a 2009 370Z or 2008/09 G37 (same engine) or are you implying result from various engine makes/models tested in a somewhat overally simplistic theory?

"No one has objectively/scientifically/under controlled circumstances demonstrated when/under what conditions the engine oil temperatures rise."

I will gladly volunteer my 370Z with manual transmission as a "test 370Z". I'll even install a on-board computer so I can datalog my Z's engine temps, outside temps, engine load, engine water temp,etc. and will share the results with Nissan corporate or Nissan Motorsports. All Nissan has to do is PM me (37Z). I do not work for Nissan; however, I have owned many Nissan cars and was involved in the survey that lead to the 240SX re-design.

wstar · 07-15-2009, 09:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Robert_Nash

A) Thanks for the graph but what oil was tested? Was it synthetic or non-synthetic? How old is the data and where does it come from?

I guess what I'm asking is how applicable is that graph to the 370 using a high-quality full synthetic oil?

Quote:

Originally Posted by 37Z

Is the reference graph results for a 2009 370Z or 2008/09 G37 (same engine) or are you implying result from various engine makes/models tested in a somewhat overally simplistic theory?

The graph (I'm talking about the one on the left) isn't really specific to an oil or an engine. SAE sets standards for how oil viscosity responds to temperature, which is how we get the standardized ratings like "5W30". That chart simply states the obvious about SAE-standard oil viscosity and heat. It tells you simple truths like "A 15W40 oil running at 250F has the same viscosity as a 5W20 oil running at 190F".

If you're talking about the one on the right, it doesn't even have numbers on one of its axes, so it's clearly just a "feel good" graph trying to show the general relationship between oil temp and engine wear in the general case.

As for the rest of it, re: specifics on what it takes to damage our engine life, and by how much, we're never going to get that data. We'd need someone independent (ourselves?) to pony up several VQ37VHRs and put them on test stands in rigorous testing conditions and destroy them (and figure out the exact relationships between things like X RPMs sustained for Y seconds = Z degrees increase in oil temps). Some people in the bowels of Nissan already have this data, but as usual they don't feel like sharing.

So we do what we can with the standard things we already know about oils and engines, which leads one to believe that even without hitting limp mode at 280, sustaining 240-260-range oil temps all the time is worse for the oil and the engine wear than keeping the temps lower, and it's not hard to fix with an oil cooler.

07-15-2009, 01:52 PM	#2 (permalink)
Robert_Nash Track Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Middle TN/Savannah GA Posts: 762 Drives: '14 Q60IPL/'14Armada Rep Power: 19	I can only speak for myself (but that doesn’t mean I don’t have my biases) but I believe that the “oil temperature issue” isn’t much of a problem and is about 90% a matter of perception. The only 370s which will likely have a true oil temperature problem are those that are tracked - the 370; like the 350 before it and, frankly, like most consumer/street vehicles not purpose built with track use in mind, are always going to need an engine oil cooler…that really shouldn’t be a surprise to anyone. While there are plenty of anecdotal stories; there seems to be little consistency with who is and who isn’t experiencing a problem and all the stories that do exist are just that, stories filtered through each story teller’s frame of reference. I’m not in any way suggesting people are lying; just that “aggressive/very aggressive” driving on a “hot” day can mean vastly different things from person to person. What is truly needed and what hasn’t happened yet, at least as far as I know, is a scientific study under controlled conditions to establish how hot the engine oil gets and under what precise circumstances. That brings up another point. While there are many, many opinions and feeling about “how hot is too hot”; other than opinions and feelings, I’ve yet to see anyone demonstrate that temperatures, in this engine, and with today’s oils, 220 or 230 or 240 or even up to 260 degree oil temps are truly causing any harm to the engine/engine life. Again, what is really needed is an objective and unemotional study to look at all the factors. Let’s also remember that Nissan has a solution (or at least a feature) in place to preserve the engine for temps in the 280 and above range in that it limits engine revs until the temp lowers (the “limp” feature). Some feel that could be a safety concern but I’m not so sure; the available power from the 370 at, say, revs limited to 5K still probably gives more performance (acceleration/passing ability, etc.) than many, many vehicles on the road today at 100% of their power so I’m not quite so sure that a decrease in available engine power is really a safety concern. I’ll grant you it’s inconvenient and not fun but I don’t think it’s quite the issue some fell it is.<o></o> Finally, I leave you with my owe story…I’ve got over 12K miles on my 370Z which has included mountain roads; deserts, many runs down the Tail of the Dragon, stop-and-go interstate traffic and autocrossing and have done it all in Winter, Spring and Summer temps with many days exceeding 100 degrees) and I’m a fairly aggressive driver (although I am not an out of control idiot on public roads)…through all that, I’ve seen my oil temps as high as the 240ish but have never see temps as high as reported by some nor have ever gotten close to limp mode.<o></o> All that so say, while I’d feel better if my temps never went above 220; I don’t think the “engine oil temperature problem” is really that much of a problem nor do I think someone “shouldn’t” buy a 370 because of it. Also, we know that if oil temps are truly that much of a concern, spending a few hundred more dollars completely fixes the problem; real or otherwise. So…does any of the above help you? I don’t know…I just offer it an observation after 12K miles and almost 7 months of having my 370. __________________ Robert -My Basset Hound Is Smarter Than Your Honor Student and Barack Obama -

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07-15-2009, 01:09 PM	#1 (permalink)
PSDSAINT Base Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Boston Posts: 1 Drives: 08 Honda coupe v6 Rep Power: 18	Question, a few years back I didn't buy a new Z because of front end problems that from what I understand were never fixed by Nissan and lots of Z owners were hung out to dry. Do any of you feel this oil temp issue is worth not buying a new Z? I was at the dealer this morning and they look great but this oil heat issue has me worried. What is your spin on buying a new Z?

07-15-2009, 03:07 PM	#3 (permalink)
Phil Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 16 Drives: '09 370Z Silver 6 sp Rep Power: 18	Robert, I can appreciate what you say about your car, but it's not fair to assume that all 370-Z's run at the same temps as yours, from what you have said about yours, I know mine does not. Discounting everybody elses experience based on your car is very frustrating to those of us that truly do have an overheating problem.

07-15-2009, 04:31 PM	#6 (permalink)
Phil Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 16 Drives: '09 370Z Silver 6 sp Rep Power: 18	You guy's must work for Nissan, if not they should be sending you checks. If there's no issue here, if this is only in other peoples minds, then why did Nissan put oil coolers on all the new Z's they sent out to the magazines for testing, they don't put them on other Nissans when they are being tested, they know there is an issue here, the coolers prove it. You mentioned that there is no scientific, controlled studys on how and when the overheating happens, how about everytime I drive my car. If you were having this issue with your car, that would be all the scientific evidence you would need. You need to study up on engine oils an see how the oil begins to break down when it is overheated to the 240-250 range. At this point, at whatever percent of breakdown, it is lubricating the engine less and less, which leads to engine wear and internal problems.