Everyone with oil temp issues

antennahead · 06-01-2009, 10:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musashi

260 = very bad

I hear ya, that is why the second this happens I back off. Have had it occur 3times now........ waiting on Nissan to do something about this. Hell, I'll buy the damn oil cooler, just make it available, don't gouge us on the price, and continue the warranty if installed by the dealer. IS THIS TOO MUCH TO ASK OF NISSAN?

John

rbratton · 06-02-2009, 06:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Musashi

260 = very bad

What is your basis for saying that 260 is too hot? I spoke with an engineer at Exxon today that claimed Mobil 1 synthetic oil does not even begin to break down until temps are above 400 degrees. He said the oil will perform excellent at 260 degrees. Is there something else in the engine that fails above the aforementioned temperature that I'm not thinking about?

Like I said in my previous post, I tracked my car last weekend at Barber in Birmingham. I have the Stillen cooler; with ambient temps in the high 90s, my oil temp was at 260 by the second lap and stayed there for all 8 twenty minute sessions. I never experienced limp mode...

Also, I inquired about oil temps in other track cars and 260-270 is common even amongst M3s.

Again, why 260?

I'm inclined to believe 260 is fine...

spearfish25 · 06-02-2009, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rbratton

I'm inclined to believe 260 is fine...

I'm inclined to agree with this conclusion.

1) Limp mode would be set at 260F if Nissan was concerned about engine components at this temp

2) synthetic oil is fine at 260F

3) Nissan engineers have said this temperature is fine

All this about engine components being 'soft' and 'degrading' at 260+ seems to be based on people's experiences with other engines. I have yet to see any hard evidence that the 370's VQ engine has metals with melting points near the 260F mark. Aluminum certainly doesn't melt at this temperature...engine parts would have to be made entirely of very soft metals for this temperature to be an issue.

Of the three metals in the technosquare article, only tin has a low melting point.

Aluminum 660 C
Zinc 420 C
Tin 217 C

I highly doubt any part of the metal in the engine is composed MAINLY of tin. If someone knows differently please post the respective component and its relative composition of tin to provide some reputable evidence towards the contrary.

wstar · 06-03-2009, 09:31 AM

It's not about the oil 'breaking down' at 260. We know a good synthetic will technically live through higher temps than that and still be usable oil. The primary issue is that viscosity drops as heat is added, and there's nothing Nissan's engineering or an oil company's engineering can do about that. If there was, they wouldn't still sell different weights of oil. They'd sell all 0w20 that was magically engineering to never lose viscosity to heat. There's a chart for the viscosity drop of various oil weights at various temperatures that's been posted in this thread multiple times I think.

The issue is that the 5w-30 you put in your car is getting too thin at 260+, which will cause wear issues in the long run. You can 'fix' this to a degree by running a much higher viscosity quality synthetic (such as 15w50), but you're trading cold-start protection when you do.

semtex · 06-03-2009, 10:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

It's not about the oil 'breaking down' at 260. We know a good synthetic will technically live through higher temps than that and still be usable oil. The primary issue is that viscosity drops as heat is added, and there's nothing Nissan's engineering or an oil company's engineering can do about that. If there was, they wouldn't still sell different weights of oil. They'd sell all 0w20 that was magically engineering to never lose viscosity to heat. There's a chart for the viscosity drop of various oil weights at various temperatures that's been posted in this thread multiple times I think.

The issue is that the 5w-30 you put in your car is getting too thin at 260+, which will cause wear issues in the long run. You can 'fix' this to a degree by running a much higher viscosity quality synthetic (such as 15w50), but you're trading cold-start protection when you do.

Would a 0W-50 be better? Like Eneos? ENEOS - Products

tranceformer · 06-03-2009, 09:55 AM

Well I just got back from ZDAYZ the other day. I made sure to closely watch my oil temp gauge whenever I could. I've had the car for about 3 months now so I've got a good idea of how it behaves now.

Typical city/highway driving here in NJ:
amb temp: 70's usually (lately)
daytime: 210*F to 220*F
night time: usually 10*F cooler

"Somewhat aggressive" driving at ZDAYZ (excluding the dragon):
Note: mostly 3rd gear, using midrange RPM's usually from 40mph to 70mph, sometimes to redline
amb temp: 80's and higher
daytime: 240*F to 250*F
nightime: didn't have the balls or sobriety to do night time driving

I knew that limp mode would start cutting in around 260*F. There was a few cases when I got above 250*F, usually would end up shifting up a gear to let her cool off, and/or getting stuck behind a slower car. I actually got a picture of the gauge at 260*F but that was during a steep incline in 2nd gear, using the upper RPM's to keep up with my friend ahead of me. We tried to datalog some oil temp #'s on my friend's 07 350z for comparison during that same run but cipher didn't save for some reason.

I don't think I really drove the car that hard, I consider myself a noob when it comes to this kind of driving. There aren't many nearby places in NJ like the roads at ZDAYZ so I'm not terribly upset with the high oil temperatures. In most cases, my oil temp would only get close to 260*F during highway shenanigan's with other cars.

With that said, I'm waiting for Nissan to release an oil cooler that isn't too pricey and keeps the factory warranty. Nismo S-tune, please?

SoCal 370Z · 06-03-2009, 10:54 AM

My concern is that Southern California has not yet hit its hot season. To me this will be the real test in real-world stop-n-go situations. I have not reached the level of comfort that this issue is over.

I have looked at the engine oil lubrication diagram in the Nissan 370Z Service Manual and it looks like (although I have not substantiated this) the oil temperature sending unit is taking its reading off the oil pulled for the oil pan. My concern is that the VVEL top-end is where the oil gets the hottest and pushed to its limits, and where a better oil temperature reading would be beneficial.

Modshack · 06-03-2009, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SoCal 370Z

I have looked at the engine oil lubrication diagram in the Nissan 370Z Service Manual and it looks like (although I have not substantiated this) the oil temperature sending unit is taking its reading off the oil pulled for the oil pan. My concern is that the VVEL top-end is where the oil gets the hottest and pushed to its limits, and where a better oil temperature reading would be beneficial.

The sump is the most logical place to read temps though as it is from that point that oil is pressurized through the system. You are probably right in that temps are probably higher at the VVEL assembly and are reduced as they drain back to the sump. This is academic though based on the failsafe trigger points. 280 in the sump may actually be 300 at the valve train, but that is where Nissan has determined the cut needs to be for the protection it needs. 300 degrees (a guess) may therefore be the "Real" number beyond which they determine the viscosity drop to be unacceptable..It looks like Viscosity levels flatten out at the 280 and beyond point...

FricFrac · 06-03-2009, 12:13 PM

From what I know (as little as it is) an engine will perform better when the oil is hotter. I'm assuming there is a point where the oil breaks down and loses its properties but I'm assuming we are no where near that limit at 250F. With our tight tollerances and micro machining, etc isn't lower viscosity going to help the parts rather than hinder/wear? If the oil is to viscous will the drag and force pushing the parts apart cause wear on other parts?

Modshack · 06-03-2009, 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FricFrac

From what I know (as little as it is) an engine will perform better when the oil is hotter. I'm assuming there is a point where the oil breaks down and loses its properties but I'm assuming we are no where near that limit at 250F. With our tight tollerances and micro machining, etc isn't lower viscosity going to help the parts rather than hinder/wear? If the oil is to viscous will the drag and force pushing the parts apart cause wear on other parts?

Nissan has determined that, at 280 degrees on the recommended oil, the maximum RPM's should be reduced. Basically that's all anyone knows.

rbratton · 06-03-2009, 02:17 PM

After seeing the viscosity over temperature chart, and reading all of today's posts, I'm still inclined to believe 260 degrees is a safe operating temperature. I don't believe the viscosity difference, from 220 to 260 degrees, will result in accelerated wear and premature engine failure.

FricFrac · 06-03-2009, 02:17 PM

So it sounds like if we are doing the oil cooler the thermal switch is going to be important to get the oil up to temp but keep it below the recomended max temp...

wstar · 06-03-2009, 02:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FricFrac

So it sounds like if we are doing the oil cooler the thermal switch is going to be important to get the oil up to temp but keep it below the recomended max temp...

Personally, I would prefer to have a 180 thermo on mine, yes. I think with most of the reasonably-sized coolers available, the car will have no trouble maintaining a 180+ temp anyways once it gets warmed up, unless you're in a really freaking cold climate. For me it's mostly about not extending the warmup time on cold mornings. I already have to wait around forever (I
like to see the needle start bumping up off the 140 floor before I pull out of the driveway if I can afford to wait that long, and 180 before I hit the throttle too hard always).

spearfish25 · 06-03-2009, 09:22 PM

Oooooo...waiting until it's off 140 to start moving??? I'd be late to work every day! At least it hits 140 after about 3min on the highway for me. I just wait until the engine idle drops below 1000 rpm before moving.

wstar · 06-03-2009, 11:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by spearfish25

Oooooo...waiting until it's off 140 to start moving??? I'd be late to work every day! At least it hits 140 after about 3min on the highway for me. I just wait until the engine idle drops below 1000 rpm before moving.

Well, I said 'if I can afford to wait that long', which isn't always the case. When I'm in a rush I also just wait for the idle to settle down somewhere under 1k. I really try to wait as long as I can though, because 30 seconds out of my driveway I'm hitting a highway feeder, and it's hard not to push the throttle pretty hard pulling out into traffic there.

06-03-2009, 09:31 AM	#4 (permalink)
wstar A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 4,024 Drives: too slow Rep Power: 3595	It's not about the oil 'breaking down' at 260. We know a good synthetic will technically live through higher temps than that and still be usable oil. The primary issue is that viscosity drops as heat is added, and there's nothing Nissan's engineering or an oil company's engineering can do about that. If there was, they wouldn't still sell different weights of oil. They'd sell all 0w20 that was magically engineering to never lose viscosity to heat. There's a chart for the viscosity drop of various oil weights at various temperatures that's been posted in this thread multiple times I think. The issue is that the 5w-30 you put in your car is getting too thin at 260+, which will cause wear issues in the long run. You can 'fix' this to a degree by running a much higher viscosity quality synthetic (such as 15w50), but you're trading cold-start protection when you do. __________________ 7AT Track Car! Journal thread / Car setup details

06-03-2009, 09:55 AM	#6 (permalink)
tranceformer A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Palm Beach, FL Posts: 1,213 Drives: 2009 370Z PW 6MT Rep Power: 268	Well I just got back from ZDAYZ the other day. I made sure to closely watch my oil temp gauge whenever I could. I've had the car for about 3 months now so I've got a good idea of how it behaves now. Typical city/highway driving here in NJ: amb temp: 70's usually (lately) daytime: 210F to 220F night time: usually 10F cooler "Somewhat aggressive" driving at ZDAYZ (excluding the dragon): Note: mostly 3rd gear, using midrange RPM's usually from 40mph to 70mph, sometimes to redline amb temp: 80's and higher daytime: 240F to 250F nightime: didn't have the balls or sobriety to do night time driving I knew that limp mode would start cutting in around 260F. There was a few cases when I got above 250F, usually would end up shifting up a gear to let her cool off, and/or getting stuck behind a slower car. I actually got a picture of the gauge at 260F but that was during a steep incline in 2nd gear, using the upper RPM's to keep up with my friend ahead of me. We tried to datalog some oil temp #'s on my friend's 07 350z for comparison during that same run but cipher didn't save for some reason. I don't think I really drove the car that hard, I consider myself a noob when it comes to this kind of driving. There aren't many nearby places in NJ like the roads at ZDAYZ so I'm not terribly upset with the high oil temperatures. In most cases, my oil temp would only get close to 260F during highway shenanigan's with other cars. With that said, I'm waiting for Nissan to release an oil cooler that isn't too pricey and keeps the factory warranty. Nismo S-tune, please? __________________ Ray* 2009 370Z Base Sport 6MT / 12.860 @ 109.09mph / 1.921 60ft / street tires official 1/4 mile track times

06-03-2009, 10:54 AM	#7 (permalink)
SoCal 370Z A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: US of A Posts: 2,842 Drives: Answers Rep Power: 34	My concern is that Southern California has not yet hit its hot season. To me this will be the real test in real-world stop-n-go situations. I have not reached the level of comfort that this issue is over. I have looked at the engine oil lubrication diagram in the Nissan 370Z Service Manual and it looks like (although I have not substantiated this) the oil temperature sending unit is taking its reading off the oil pulled for the oil pan. My concern is that the VVEL top-end is where the oil gets the hottest and pushed to its limits, and where a better oil temperature reading would be beneficial. __________________ ( Click to show/hide ) Why I NEVER say NO to the Panda Lou Fusz!!!

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06-03-2009, 12:13 PM	#9 (permalink)
FricFrac A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 1,481 Drives: 370Z 300ZX 280ZX 240 Rep Power: 229	From what I know (as little as it is) an engine will perform better when the oil is hotter. I'm assuming there is a point where the oil breaks down and loses its properties but I'm assuming we are no where near that limit at 250F. With our tight tollerances and micro machining, etc isn't lower viscosity going to help the parts rather than hinder/wear? If the oil is to viscous will the drag and force pushing the parts apart cause wear on other parts?

06-03-2009, 02:17 PM	#11 (permalink)
rbratton Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Vine Grove, KY Posts: 89 Drives: 2009 370Z Rep Power: 17	After seeing the viscosity over temperature chart, and reading all of today's posts, I'm still inclined to believe 260 degrees is a safe operating temperature. I don't believe the viscosity difference, from 220 to 260 degrees, will result in accelerated wear and premature engine failure.

06-03-2009, 02:17 PM	#12 (permalink)
FricFrac A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Victoria, BC Posts: 1,481 Drives: 370Z 300ZX 280ZX 240 Rep Power: 229	So it sounds like if we are doing the oil cooler the thermal switch is going to be important to get the oil up to temp but keep it below the recomended max temp...

06-03-2009, 09:22 PM	#14 (permalink)
spearfish25 A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Naples, FL Posts: 4,117 Drives: to work Rep Power: 1857	Oooooo...waiting until it's off 140 to start moving??? I'd be late to work every day! At least it hits 140 after about 3min on the highway for me. I just wait until the engine idle drops below 1000 rpm before moving.