370Z's and E85?

phunk

if i find any of those in-tank hoses are swelling up some day i will post about it... but there is no reason to wait for that information before doing the conversion if someone wanted to. If they wanted to be extra cautious they could just replace those 3 hoses while upgrading the fuel pump (something youre probably going to have to do for e85 anyway, depending on your HP level.. but youre probably boosted if youre going to bother with e85).

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IDZRVIT

Is there a language barrier here?

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"America.... still builds rockets!"
Vette: 355 cid, 400 rwhp
'13 CTS-V Coupe: 6.2L LSA, 556HP

MightyBobo

Seriously? The Sky Redline was a forced induction vehicle - of course you're going to see good gains from E85. And to be honest, that gain seems pretty modest compared to some gains Ive seen in other FI applications. The 370Z, NATURALLY ASPIRATED, will not see gains like that more than likely.

We (or at least I) were talking how it theoretically couldnt, since I didnt know how much fuel the stock pump could push and what pressure it could maintain, much less how much the injectors could flow. Are you running a stock fuel pump and stock injectors? Because by your sig, it sure looks like you arent, in which case my point remains the same for a forced induction build...

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Maila87

E85 or pure bioethanol is presented as fuel with better performance and better efficiency. But it is not true! You have to optimize and increase Compression ratio (some turbo engines with E85 have bigger than 18:0). Turbo is helping to optimize A/F ratio which is needed, because bioethanol is not so efficient as gas. It has 30% less power (mean 30% efficiency) if is combusted in similar way like gas (if you just switch to E85 in your Z).

And why is so presented as more powerful and efficient? It has AKI or RON over 130! So you can optimize combustion process to use bigger compression ration which will increase efficiency and add power. In Norweigen and Sweden are used D95 buses - bioethanol with some additives is used in diesel engines for get even better efficiency and with its really big AKI index it is possible.

Why it is suggested not to use is fact, that bioethanol with over 10% in GAS is really corrosive and get outside moisture. For this reason is not transported by pipes like gas, or diesel.
All seals have to be corrosive free. It acts really bad with pure aluminum. So engine pistons and other components made from aluminum have to be protected with some non corrosive layer.

VW/AUDI forbid to use 5% or more bioethanol in Gas. But know is law for adding to 10% of adding bioethanol in Europe Union!

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-->2005-6 Nissan Micra 1,3i CVT 72PS Red MY 98 -->2006-8 Nissan Almera 1,5i N16 96PS Red -->2007-8 Skoda Fabia Combi 1,2HTP 3 cylinder 60PS Green -->2008-11 AUDI TT 2,0TFSI FWD S-tronic 200PS Red MY06 -->2011 Nissan 370Z manual White Pearl

MightyBobo

Im assuming you were just piggy-backing on what I was saying, but you kinda re-presented info I already stated earlier in this very thread lol. You just used a whole bunch of big words to say its octane rating is higher and, with a motor properly set up for the application, you can increase compression/boost safely without fear of detonating. Im not saying you're wrong and it IS good info...just already stated is all.

Or maybe you misunderstood me saying, "Seriously?" - I meant it in the MOST sarcastic way haha


Also another obvious reason as to why it may not necessarily be safe to run in a stock 370Z, but thats pretty interesting to hear about VW/Audi's requirements, and just getting gas in the EU means you're breaking their requirements - I didnt know that.

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ImportConvert

I have seen ls7's after a season on e85 and the pistons were fine. Very clean, too! On a stock c6z, with just a tune and e85 in the tank you will gain about 20whp or so and lose a couple mpg from what I have seen others do. I know the Nissan isn't a Chevy, but aluminum pistons are aluminum pistons, etc. The only research I did on e85 was as relates to my vette, and noone I know of in the c6 community has had any side effect from running it except a cleaner engine, more power, and a few mpg less.

Maila87

Yes, I meant it just confirming your opinion but a little bit different with some numbers.

It is forbidden for BWA engines for example - you know them as original 2.0TFSI (also like 2.0TSI in later VW) and 200HP. It is because most of components are not resistive to corrosion process caused from bioethanol. Fuel pumps are failing in 2 year warranty in these engines. But my TT with that engine had 80 kms and 4 years, when I sold it with no issues except fuel pump and ignition coils. Actually this engine is used in many popular cars in Europe Octavia RS and these cars can do 500 kms with that engine.
But in these years it was just 5% of bioethanol. 10% is new and defined by law (you couldn't buy pure gasoline). In US is also added 5% at least to Gas.

And plus side - bioethanol is natural cleaner for engine and more efficient/aggressive than additives, so can clean carbonization, which is common problem to all TFSI and FSI engine even after 4000 kms. So in older engine you can observe bigger consumption of OIL not caused by corrosion, but by cleaner engine.

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-->2005-6 Nissan Micra 1,3i CVT 72PS Red MY 98 -->2006-8 Nissan Almera 1,5i N16 96PS Red -->2007-8 Skoda Fabia Combi 1,2HTP 3 cylinder 60PS Green -->2008-11 AUDI TT 2,0TFSI FWD S-tronic 200PS Red MY06 -->2011 Nissan 370Z manual White Pearl

phunk

Based on your first sentence here, I would say you're ok so far... But I'll let you know.

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phunk

I agree there is no point for a NA car.

I ran e85 before switching the pump, but while still turbo. I didn't dyno to see how far exactly it would go... But it will keep up on a NA car I assure you

Stock injectors, probably not enough even for NA... But I don't know for sure cause I don't know what size they are

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MightyBobo

NA yeah, I'd hope so. But not FI, which makes the whole point moot as Im sure you agree lol

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1slow370

5-10 years ago fuel systems were made with rubber seals and diaphrams that couldn't handle alcohol now a days 99% of all vehicles are compatable with it.

OF COURSE THE MANUAL SAYS NOT TO USE IT, it will not work without at least a reflash and since reflashes aren't covered by nissan it basically just a liabilty notice just like a tdi manual telling you not to put gas in it(no-brainer) a stock car will not run on e85. our engines relatively high CR of 11:1 makes it a great candidate for e85 especially considering the sophisticated anti knock logic nissan had to use there is room on the table for e85. as to the injectors, maybe in a stock motor you could get away with it just check your duty cycle and see if there is room to go maybe gtm could tell you on that.

also there are all aluminum flex fuel motors with no special coatings, this is actually the norm. Also there are no e85 motors i know of that are running 18:1 base CR. Thats crazy almost diesel territory. turbo applications may have an 18:1 dynamic ratio (adding in boost pressure over base), but most n/a e85 engines are flex fuel meaning they are in the 10-12:1 range static cr because they still have to work on gas. e85 is all about timing advance and running pig rich on it for na power, emission state guys love it because its harder than hell to fail a sniffer on e85

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dirTy_shoeZ

I'm putting my Z on e85 .

MightyBobo

Cool story.

Are you boosted? Because if not, you're wasting your money, really...

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DR_

Not quite so cut and dry but for the most part I agree. I suspect on a NA application we would need bigger injectors along with a tune to see any gains. The gains come from the advancing the timing a lot more before knock. Once VVEL is cracked you can run lots of lift before knock, which would give good gains.

The question should be is it really worth the hassle for the limited gains on a NA application? I suspect as it sits now there might be a 10hp increase with a good tune. Is that 10hp worth being tethered to e85? If you just race your car the answer could be yes. If you live in the Mid-West where a lot of gas stations carry e85 the answer could be yes. But if you use your car normally and you don’t live in the Mid-West it would be one big hunt after another looking for fuel unless you have a way to swap ECU maps. So for the majority I think it probably isn’t worth it.

Here is a quote from a friend of mine that tried it on a heavily modified NA daily driver S2000. He is really good at tuning as well.
Not worth it. I got a few ft-lbs of torque, but I could only get 200 miles out of a tank on the highway. Since there are so few gas stations that carry E85, you have to really plan your trips perfectly. It’s also a bit of a pain to switch back and forth between E85 and E10, since mixing them creates E??, which throws off the tune. You basically have to drive until it’s almost totally empty, then flash to the other tune while filling with the new fuel.

MightyBobo

No insult intended, but you repeated what's been said several times in this thread I believe lol.

N/A E85 builds are NOT worth the hassle, IMHO. Minor power gains to be had. Boosted, on the other hand...

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