STILLEN lightweight crank pulley

370ZDreamer · 04-18-2009, 10:07 AM

Does the lightweight crank pulley bolt on to the front of the factory dampener or is it completely replacing the factory dampener?

wstar · 04-18-2009, 10:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370ZDreamer

Does the lightweight crank pulley bolt on to the front of the factory dampener or is it completely replacing the factory dampener?

From what I read here before, there is no real harmonic dampener on our engine, it's internally damped/balanced. Our stock pulley has an integrated NVH (noise/vibration-something) that reduces noise, which the replacement doesn't have.

370ZDreamer · 04-19-2009, 07:20 PM

All internal zero balance engines still need a harmonic dampener. You still have harmonics in any reciprocating assembly. The pictures I have seen of the factory crank pulley show it has an inertia ring, so it is a dampener like its supposed to be.

I would never replace the crank pulley on my car with a pulley not built as a dampener.

wstar · 04-19-2009, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370ZDreamer

All internal zero balance engines still need a harmonic dampener. You still have harmonics in any reciprocating assembly. The pictures I have seen of the factory crank pulley show it has an inertia ring, so it is a dampener like its supposed to be.

I would never replace the crank pulley on my car with a pulley not built as a dampener.

Can you elaborate on the above? The service manual doesn't really go into this sort of detail, although it does call the ring a "damper", when it says "Never put suitable puller tab on crankshaft pulley periphery, because this damages internal damper." (by which they mean, attach the puller to the insides of the pulley, not the outsides).

Wikipedia has this to say, although I wouldn't consider them very authoritative on the subject: Harmonic balancer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia.

Have people actually seen crankshaft failure from this sort of thing?

Josh@STILLEN · 04-19-2009, 09:19 PM

As long as you are going with a reputable pulley manufacturer who understands how to build a perfectly balanced pulley, there have been zero problems. We've been producing pulleys for superchargers on down for years, and have never had a failure.

There are thousands and thousands of pulley sets being run on 350Z's, G35's, G37's and now 370Z with no problems at all. The factory crank pulley does NOT have a harmonic balancer, the engines are internally balanced.

Again, this is not the type of item you want to take a risk on ebay by just anyone who thinks they can cut a pulley, but have been a proven power-adding modification that provides great results.

Skorch · 04-19-2009, 10:17 PM

Quick question - have there been dyno results for the Stillen lightweight pulley? Not the underdrive, just the lightweight one. I'd appreciate the info or a link to the thread with it - I can't seem to find any.

wstar · 04-19-2009, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Skorch

Quick question - have there been dyno results for the Stillen lightweight pulley? Not the underdrive, just the lightweight one. I'd appreciate the info or a link to the thread with it - I can't seem to find any.

I believe RCZ has the light, non-underdrive pulley, but hasn't installed it yet.

RCZ · 04-19-2009, 10:32 PM

Yes he does. He will get it installed soon. We ran into some difficulties and decided to leave it for another day.

wstar · 04-20-2009, 12:01 AM

Back on this subject of harmonic balancers and all that jazz, here's a better wiki link: Underdrive pulleys - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. To quote from the end of that article:

Quote:

Changing the original crankshaft pulley can have negative effects if the replacement pulley is not manufactured properly. A crankshaft or accessory pulley that is not machined or balanced properly can cause severe damage. For most domestic V8s a harmonic damper is necessary to absorb crankshaft vibrations. Early to mid-year V8's kept the pulley and damper as separate components. Most late model V8s now integrate the damper and the pulley into one part. For small displacement engines found in many import and domestic vehicles (4.0L and under) the original crankshaft pulley only serves to quiet noise vibration and harshness (NVH) you hear in the occupant compartment. Although it may look like a damper on V8's engines it serves no protection function to the engine. It is the same as the baffles and resonators found in the intakes and exhausts systems of most cars today that serve to make the engine as quiet as feasibly possible. The first things most enthusiasts do is install high flow intakes and exhausts; the quieting function is eliminated.

Again, it's wikipedia and with no citation, so take it for what it's worth.

370ZDreamer · 04-20-2009, 04:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Josh@STILLEN

As long as you are going with a reputable pulley manufacturer who understands how to build a perfectly balanced pulley, there have been zero problems. We've been producing pulleys for superchargers on down for years, and have never had a failure.

There are thousands and thousands of pulley sets being run on 350Z's, G35's, G37's and now 370Z with no problems at all. The factory crank pulley does NOT have a harmonic balancer, the engines are internally balanced.

Again, this is not the type of item you want to take a risk on ebay by just anyone who thinks they can cut a pulley, but have been a proven power-adding modification that provides great results.

You are missing the point. I've had machine shops zero balance engines I have had built in the past. This does not mean you still do not need a harmonic dampener. A rotating assembly will always have harmonics that need to be dampened.

That is great that the pulley itself is perfectly balanced. That means the pulley itself will not introduce any additional harmonics. However it does nothing to absorb the harmonics that are inherent to the rotating assembly.

As the engine turns, the changes in direction from the pistons moving up and down and the forces exerted on the crankshaft by combustion force pushing the piston/rod down on the crankshaft produce torsional vibration. The crankshaft itself being perfectly balanced as it rotates is not where the harmonics come from. Sure an out of balance crankshaft will make things worse, but once the crankshaft is balanced, the forces at work on the pistons and rods exert their own forces which produce the harmonics in all engine rotating assemblies. That is why you need a dampener to absorb those harmonics.

If you look at this picture of the engine http://www.seriouswheels.com/pics-20...-1920x1440.jpg

You can see the ring bonding the inertia ring to the inner hub. It is a dampener and it needs to be there.

The reference to the shop manual that Wstar quoted further proves my point. You want to pull the dampener off from the center hub, not the outer ring because you could break the bonding and separate the outer inertia ring from the center hub.

I am a bit surprised at something like this from Stillen as I've always held your parts in high regard, but when it comes to this part, you wont be seeing my money for it. I don't believe its right.

wstar · 04-20-2009, 04:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 370ZDreamer

You are missing the point. I've had machine shops zero balance engines I have had built in the past. This does not mean you still do not need a harmonic dampener. A rotating assembly will always have harmonics that need to be dampened.

Did you read the wikipedia quote above as well? They claim that while harmonic balancers are necessary for integrity reasons on larger V-8s, that newer, smaller-displacement engines (like our 3.7L V6, I would assume) only include damper-like rings to reduce noise, not to protect from failure.

I understand the basic theory going on here: since an ICE is acted on by the pistons in a pulsing pattern at odd angles, there will always be vibrations along the crankshaft, and that at certain RPMs these vibrations might be in tune with the natural harmonic frequency of the crankshaft itself, which would amplify the vibrations, potentially desctructively. I think the question is, in what configurations are those harmonics potentially dangerous? The wikipedia quote seems to indicate that smaller engines aren't susceptible to destroying themselves via harmonics.

BlueR32 · 04-21-2009, 10:33 AM

i'd hesitate to look at a picture of the crank pulley to decide if it is a harmonic damper.

the presence of elastomer or rubber on the pulley does not necessarily mean that it is required for torsional damping. it is common to have such on the crank pulley just for n/v/h.

to be a torsional damper, the pulley would have to have two rings whose movements are somehow isolated from each other, either by material or by springs. another format could be a viscous fluid in a circumferential cavity within the pulley.

stillen has looked at the pulley, and has said the configuration is not that of a damper. if there is doubt as to his expertise, then the only thing to do is to take one off and examine it in cross section.

wstar · 04-21-2009, 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueR32

i'd hesitate to look at a picture of the crank pulley to decide if it is a harmonic damper.

the presence of elastomer or rubber on the pulley does not necessarily mean that it is required for torsional damping. it is common to have such on the crank pulley just for n/v/h.

to be a torsional damper, the pulley would have to have two rings whose movements are somehow isolated from each other, either by material or by springs. another format could be a viscous fluid in a circumferential cavity within the pulley.

stillen has looked at the pulley, and has said the configuration is not that of a damper. if there is doubt as to his expertise, then the only thing to do is to take one off and examine it in cross section.

Well, I've got my stock pulley sitting in my garage off the car, but I don't think I'm willing to slice it just to settle this. It's actually hard for me to tell the exact composition of the pulley and damper from the outside. There's definitely a very stiff rubber ring on the outer backside of the pulley, but it's molded right onto it in a seamless fashion, so it's kinda hard to tell where metal starts or rubber ends without, again, destructively investigating it.

BlueR32 · 04-21-2009, 02:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wstar

There's definitely a very stiff rubber ring on the outer backside of the pulley, but it's molded right onto it in a seamless fashion, so it's kinda hard to tell where metal starts or rubber ends without, again, destructively investigating it.

do you have a multitester? if one side doesn't conduct with the other, one might assume that the rubber layer, separating the two rings completely, may act as a harmonic damper. if they do conduct, i'd bet that the internal composition of the pulley is solid, and thus the rubber would be for nvh.

i'm really just guessing. where are the automotive engineer members of this board?

wstar · 04-21-2009, 03:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueR32

do you have a multitester? if one side doesn't conduct with the other, one might assume that the rubber layer, separating the two rings completely, may act as a harmonic damper. if they do conduct, i'd bet that the internal composition of the pulley is solid, and thus the rubber would be for nvh.

i'm really just guessing. where are the automotive engineer members of this board?

Good point. Using the sharp multimeter probes made it easy to tell which parts were rubber and which were metal too, I think I understand the piece now. It wasn't built like I though it was at first. First, here's some pics from my cellphone:

Front view:

Side view:

Rear view:

The pulley is constructed from two separate pieces of metal which are not electrically connected, but it's not a ring on the back like you would think. The inner part of the pulley (the hub and spokes) is separated from the outer part of the pulley (the outer ring with the grooves for the belt). The circular groove you see in the front and rear views is the layer of (very stiff) rubber between the two parts, as highlighted in red here:

I still don't know if that helps draw any independent conclusion. It's not like the design of V8 harmonic balancers I've seen in the past. Those are generally a solid complete pulley, with a ring (picture like a very large washer with a very large opening) mounted on the backside of the outer diameter, separate from the pulley by a layer of rubber. This could still easily be either a real torsional damper or just an NVH-reduction device to me, given how little I really know about the subject.

04-19-2009, 09:19 PM	#35 (permalink)
Josh@STILLEN The370Z.com Sponsor Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Costa Mesa, CA Posts: 1,197 Drives: 2004 G35 Coupe 6MT Rep Power: 533	As long as you are going with a reputable pulley manufacturer who understands how to build a perfectly balanced pulley, there have been zero problems. We've been producing pulleys for superchargers on down for years, and have never had a failure. There are thousands and thousands of pulley sets being run on 350Z's, G35's, G37's and now 370Z with no problems at all. The factory crank pulley does NOT have a harmonic balancer, the engines are internally balanced. Again, this is not the type of item you want to take a risk on ebay by just anyone who thinks they can cut a pulley, but have been a proven power-adding modification that provides great results. Legz likes this.

04-19-2009, 10:17 PM	#36 (permalink)
Skorch Enthusiast Member Join Date: Feb 2009 Location: Phoenix, AZ Posts: 469 Drives: 2012 370Z Rep Power: 540	Quick question - have there been dyno results for the Stillen lightweight pulley? Not the underdrive, just the lightweight one. I'd appreciate the info or a link to the thread with it - I can't seem to find any. __________________ '12 370Z + Sport \| Stillen Gen3 Intakes \| Stillen UD Pulley \| Motordyne M370 \| FI Exhaust \| FI HFCs \| 4.08 Gears \| Uprev tuned

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04-18-2009, 10:07 AM	#31 (permalink)
370ZDreamer Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 16	Does the lightweight crank pulley bolt on to the front of the factory dampener or is it completely replacing the factory dampener?

04-19-2009, 07:20 PM	#33 (permalink)
370ZDreamer Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Florida Posts: 22 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 16	All internal zero balance engines still need a harmonic dampener. You still have harmonics in any reciprocating assembly. The pictures I have seen of the factory crank pulley show it has an inertia ring, so it is a dampener like its supposed to be. I would never replace the crank pulley on my car with a pulley not built as a dampener.

04-19-2009, 10:32 PM	#38 (permalink)
RCZ A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Nov 2008 Location: Miami Posts: 6,403 Drives: '09 370Z Rep Power: 1118	Yes he does. He will get it installed soon. We ran into some difficulties and decided to leave it for another day.

04-21-2009, 10:33 AM	#42 (permalink)
BlueR32 Base Member Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Alabama Posts: 20 Drives: 2004 VW R32 Rep Power: 203	i'd hesitate to look at a picture of the crank pulley to decide if it is a harmonic damper. the presence of elastomer or rubber on the pulley does not necessarily mean that it is required for torsional damping. it is common to have such on the crank pulley just for n/v/h. to be a torsional damper, the pulley would have to have two rings whose movements are somehow isolated from each other, either by material or by springs. another format could be a viscous fluid in a circumferential cavity within the pulley. stillen has looked at the pulley, and has said the configuration is not that of a damper. if there is doubt as to his expertise, then the only thing to do is to take one off and examine it in cross section.