Fuel starvation, who else?

takjak2

Good price point, but not designed for our return-less fuel system.

Still waiting...

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Ron

I saw that. You can always add the return system?

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6MT

What, a second pump?

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Andrew

2009 370Z Sport/Touring 6MT sold
2013 Honda Civic Si coupe D/D

O&G

No, return lines and GTM adapter.

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SPOHN

Anything? My money is like a swirl pot also. It will eventually come out of my pocket.

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spearfish25

Anyone else losing confidence in this 'amazing' solution that has been discussed and updated and delayed for at least 6 months now?

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phunk

Ya its been through a few changes. The "final" design work is all done, its just been pending production for a month or so now. Our CNCs have been tied up with the bread and butter work that pays the bills. Ive actually got a few quotes pending on having some of the machining out-sourced on a few of the components since we are low on available time for it. Ive been driving my turbo car a lot lately since the weather in Chicago is nice, and ive been able to get the car into fuel starvation with as much as 3/4 tank of fuel coming out of a hard right at full throttle with my new sticky tires. So I am pretty anxious for it myself as I fear for my motor when leaning out like that at 500+rwhp.

I spoke to the guy running the previous prototype on his road race car, he mentioned that they spent all day on the dyno with it and it held up.

Hopefully the new model is able to perform just as well. His car is all-motor. I hope that the new version not only works just as well, but I hope that it is able to work well enough for 500+rwhp cars without depleting the integrated surge can.

The model in that test car is an in-tank surge can setup with its own pump that mounts to the drivers side of the tank and has 5 lines going back and forth inside the tank to integrate it to the stock pump assembly. This installation was a huge concern and he confirmed it was a nightmare to get it all in there.

The new version is an entire complete fuel pump assembly replacement that mounts to the passenger side of the tank and eliminates the stock one completely. So its much more of a drop in after configuring it outside the tank.

The older one was much easier to construct because it didnt have so many integrated components.

The new one is far more extensive since it is replacing the stock one completely. It has an integrated Bosch fuel pressure regulator that is set to the same pressure as stock, and it has an ingrated replaceable fuel filter. It had to have those in order to be a drop in replacement for people who arent looking for mega fuel supply, but simply a solution to the starvation. I didnt want people to have to do a return system and external filter and regulator and what not just to solve it. In its simplest form, its a drop in replacement and PnP with the fuel lines and all, only the electrical connector has to be changed to our 6-pin connector to drop it in.

Fully assembled, the unit couldnt fit through the opening in the gas tank. So there is light assembly to do inside the tank, but I was able to keep it pretty simple.

But having to integrate siphons, level sensor mounting, wiring connectors, fuel filter element and housing, fuel pressure regulator, and the ability to add a second pump, ability to eliminate the fuel pressure regulator with a fitting to use for return fuel when adding a regulator to the engine bay, etc, and make it all so that it can get inside the gas tank opening without extreme work or modifying any part of the car other than the fuel pump wiring connector, was a serious chore. Also, the old version used 4" 6061 tubing for the canister portion, this one is a fully billet canister so that we can make use of the entire 4.25" opening for greater internal volume and space for the additional fuel pump to have a larger diameter (like the walbro 400 with its 2.0" base portion).

The very first original prototype that we never even tested was actually a ton of billet parts that built up the stock assembly into something along the lines of what we are doing now... but it wasnt very clean, had to much awkward machining, and not enough displacement, nor the ability to add another pump.

So basically we started out trying to keep it as simple as possible, found it to be more complicated, so we kept it simple and then didnt like the installation or complexity of the back and forth system with fuel transferring all around the gas tank through multi hoses, basically I didnt trust it not to have some sort of balancing issue in 100% of circumstances... and now we are basically to the most complicated possible method of having to completely re-engineer a fuel pump assembly from scratch for this car, only have to make it out-perform the OEM engineers in every perspective, while still fitting through the same opening.

This thing has become quite a pain in the *** for us... but I didnt do all this work for nothing. Unfortunately it just came to "completion" in the middle of the busy season where its very difficult to process it through the CNCs.

It is now constructed of 8 seperate, complex billet components that need fixturing for machining from 2-4 different setups in the CNC.

I do not post about it anymore because I basically got to the point where until I am holding something in my hand ready to ship it out, there wasnt much point. At various stages in the past, we were as close as I claimed to being able to put it together and retail it, but they were previous theories.

Every time you work on a project, you could have done better. There is always a line you have to draw that will be where you decide it will have to good enough and its time to move on to the next. With our previous models, I hadn't come to that line. I didnt want a product I was going to have to revisit and rebuild in the future, I just want it right the first time because I dont want to come back to it. While I can sit here and still imagine a few ways I could make it a little bit "nicer" even than it is now, I cannot think of any further way to improve its logic unless I see it have a performance issue that needs adjustment.

So now I am in the same boat as you guys, just waiting. You will see this exist, and you will see it soon... and I wont quote an ETA.. but its damn close now.

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Ron

that is good enough for me, I trust phunk to come through, unlike some other vendors here. I too would hate to get a product only to see a v2 version of it a couple of weeks/months later.

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SPOHN

Much praise to Phunk

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takjak2

So no new word on when? And it sounds much more expensive now.

For the customers here that are still eager to have this solution you could add $100 of pure profit per unit if it meant you brought it to market now. If you wait through this summer you could lose thousands in revenue as drivers move to other surge tank or fuel cell options.

The design sounds great. Has this version been tested yet or, as it seem
s, are we in the same place as before?

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takjak2

Phunk, what would you say to using a return fuel conversion kit (yours or other) and the Radium surge tank above? Available now for less than a thousand dollars.

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phunk

external surge cans do not work out very well in cars like the Z that have return fuel pressure powered venturis. the fuel spent from the OEM regulator pressurizes 2 venturis, one to promote refill of the factory intank pump assembly and one to transfer fuel over the gas tank from side to side. i have helped out a few people with 350z's to get that configuration to work out, it can be a little bit of a hassle. it can be done, but it needs to be configured by someone that understands what is happening in detail with this cars fuel system.

The 370z fuel pump assembly has some benefits to it where i can think of much better ways to plumb an external surge can without any side effects.

it could be done well, and its crossed my mind a few times as its pretty simple. there are 2 things i dont like about it... i dont like depending on 2 pumps when the engines fuel comsumption is within the capacity of a single... and one large concern is, where do you want to put this surge can? i would never build a product that places fuel lines or containers inside the cabin. There is some room to use under the hatch, but where that space is available is different depending on which exhaust system everyone has. this setup also requires lots of extra fuel plumbing around the vehicle... i wanted to keep it all inside the fuel tank or like our current model, 100% stock plumbing. To keep all fuel storage inside the fuel tank is by far the safest solution in terms of collisions/accidents/road debris, etc.

it is my opinion that the best possible way to solve the problem is to just build an all new fuel pump assembly that doesnt have the inherent attribute of poor fluid containment. the next best thing is a band-aid, like an external surge can.

if you can think of a good and safe place to put an external surge can on this car, with adequate displacement, and proper shape (a tall cylinder is most ideal, the smaller the "floor plan" the better it will control fuel placement in turns), i have ways to plumb it to this vehicles fuel system.

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phunk

when I first wanted to build a surge can setup for this car... my original idea as to build an external style surge can and plumb it as if it were external, but to simply have it hang inside the gas tank on the drivers side... I would have only had to add a level sensor mount for the stock level sensor over there, no big deal, and have an internal mount for a good fuel pump and a connector to get the wiring into the pump and level sensor. This would be the easiest solution.

What I ran into, was that I couldnt think of a great way to get the hoses over to it from the passenger side. I didnt want to go under the car and over the driveshaft... I didnt want to go through the cabin... and I was unable to fish any lines inbetween the gas tank and the chassis above it to have the lines laying across the top of the tank.. and there was no way I was going to make it so you had to drop the tank to do it.

that is how we ended up with that working prototype that mounts over there and has all the plumbing inside the tank.

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phunk

also, another thing you need to keep in mind about an external surge can is pressure regulation.

stock, the fuel pressure is regulated right off the filter housing that the OEM pump feeds.

If you run an external surge can, you are now feeding the surge can off this OEM assembly, and the pressure is regulated to 52psi there, but of course it would never build pressure because its pumping right into the surge can which will have an overflow back to the tank. Now you have a pump feeding the engine from the surge can, and a regulator will have to be added.

what our working prototype thats in that car is doing... part of the reason there are so many hoses going back and forth inside the tank, is because we have the surge cans pump feeding the stock filter housing with regulator, then out the stock port at the top. this was one advantage to doing all the plumbing inside the tank, we could reuse the stock regulator. To accomplish this with an external surge can would be having a T off the pressure output from the surge cans pump that goes back into the stock assembly to the filter housing and regulator. but now only the regulator fuel is filtered, and you will have to add an external filter after the surge can's pump.

i mean i could really go on for a good hour to two about the various configurations and different ways to accomplish a fuel surge solution in this car.

i can definitely say that we ended up deciding on our final solution for a reason, because everything else was just so hokey and unrefined and overall questionable. we figured, rather than band-aid and hack the problem away... lets just kill it right at the source.

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clintfocus

thanks for the explanations, still fully ready to purchase when done