First track experience today ! Some good, some really bad
 

Had some mechanical issues at the track today, so figured I'd share with you guys to see if anyone else is having the same...

location: PIR in phoenix, az
Phoenix International Raceway - Trackpedia
conditions: sunny, 70f
event: nasa hpde3... 4 runs about 20 mins each

I'm driving a 370z base model with sport package and M6... no mods so far, other than pulling about 100 pounds of plastic and spare tires... i only broke it in for ~200 miles prior to the event.

Overall, I think this car is a great starting point for a track / race car. It was reasonably fast, but I definitely wanted more out of 4th gear when going onto the nascar straight... I think once I have another few hundred pounds out of the car, and maybe +25hp in tweaks, the power/weight will be better. The suspension was not as stiff as I'm used to but even with stock setup it handles ok if you anticipate the gradual body roll. I definitely found that it was NOT able to hold the line I wanted for example in the carousel at PIR, but I think that'll be fixed with sticky tires.

So, the big issue i had is this... About 10 mins into my first run, I noticed that the oil temperature gauge was pretty much burried at 300f... As soon as that happened, my rev limiter moved from 7500 to 6000... Every time I'd accelerate through a gear it would prematurely cut the throttle at 6000rpm... Was extremely frustrating as it seemed to cut in at all the wrong times and slowed me down overall by at least 10%

It happened in all four of my runs, usually about 10 mins in.

I can only imagine this is going to get worse as I move to stickier tires and tweak the motor.

It gets worse... After the fourth and final run, it dropped the rev limiter from 6000 to 3500, just as I was pulling off the track. I decided to keep the car running after the session to let the engine cool. Tried to drive it home, and every time I accelerated through a gear it just cut the engine at 3500, sending it back down to 2500... I had to shift gears real fast... luckily 6th gear is good for 80mph at 3000rpm, so I made it home. Also, it turned out that after I shut off the car and restarted, the computer had reset and all was back to normal.

So, we need a solution to this ! I suspect Nissan has decided to get very aggressive on the computer parameters for protecting the engine from overheat in order to lower their warranty repair expenses. We either need to get some REALLY BIG oil coolers for this car, or someone needs to figure out how to hack the computer.

Thoughts ? Anyone else had this issue ?

From what I remember of some of the reviews, they had oil coolers. Maybe someone else remembers better than I do or check some of the reviews.

Sounds like fun on the track. Was this your 1st track experience with the Z or ever?

Thanks for your reply...

Yeah, it definitely has an oil cooler... it is positioned just in front of the radiator on the passenger side... Plenty of airflow but perhaps it is too small or the lines are not flowing fast enough... I'm not really a techie, so I'll leave it to others to comment on that.

Sold a porsche boxster s to buy this car ! Tracked the porsche about 10 times a year for the last four years. The boxster when unodified would run about 1:18 at PIR, when setup was 1:13... I'm guessing the z was no better than 1:18 today, but I definitely has potential to be 1:10... Looking forward to getting it sorted out!

So, back to the mechanical issue... anyone else have insights or similar experience ?

Hopefully someone can chime in and help you out. Here is an exert from Edmunds review:

If you're someone who does track days, you'll be interested in the optional Sport package with its bigger tires and bigger brakes. You might also be interested in the special Nismo parts fitted to this test car, an engine oil cooler and an oil cooler for the limited-slip rear differential. The engine's extreme output has made it more sensitive to oil temperature, we understand, so if you're looking for the ability to reach redline throughout a long track session on a warm day, the Nismo bits are a good thing to have (especially since there was even serious discussion about making them a part of the Sport option).

The 370z and g37 has oil overheating issues if driven hard on a track. I believe what you think is an oil cooler is the powersteering cooler. I also think the tires will grip better once you have driven at least 500 miles.

Wow!! I didn't realize there were going to be any 370's @ PIR today. PIR is like 10min from my house.

<--- Sat home on his butt all day.

Do you do any business with any of the local shops? Intense, Vivid, UMS, etc...?

Hey guys...

Thanks for clearing up my confusion on the oil cooler... makes sense that I was looking at the power steering cooler... glad it is there ! I blew up 2 power steering pumps on my boxster, so that's one less thing to worry about !

Also, thanks for the tip on the nismo oil cooler... I'll definitely look into that! May also be possible to build a better one with other parts - I'll let everyone know once I get that figured out. I'll prob skip the LSD cooler - figure I'll drive it till it dies then look for a mech LSD.

Appreciate the tip on the tires too, but I'm actually going to put them in storage and get a set of Enkeis + toyo R888s.

Regarding local shops... yes... my car will be the test mule for Vivid racing... they are doing intake + pulleys + exhaust under Agency Power... I'll start a separate thread on that with pics once it is underway... it'll be several weeks before I update... I'm also planning to do some other mods...

Another good shop for those in Phoenix is SRD... talked with their owner, Chet, at the track today and he's definitely interested in working on 370s, and has done some pretty cool 350 race car conversions in the past

So, going back to my original post... I'd still really like to get some confirmation about the root cause of my issues... am I right that it was the computer stepping in to keep the engine cool ? do you think the right way to address it is by adding an oil cooler ? THANKS

Hey Welcome to the forums. I think you're the first member to take their 370Z to the track in the US. Congrats.

Your problem is well known by the 370Z Tuners. Mines 370Z in Fuji Racetrack suffered the same problem! Here are more info on the Mine's 370Z

http://www.the370z.com/nissan-370z-p...2-08-08-a.html

Then here's another thread where Namir said that G37 is suffering from the same oil heating issues. Basically once the oil temp goes above 135C, engine cuts down RPMs to protect and prevent any damage to engine.

http://www.the370z.com/nissan-370z-g...l-problem.html

Solution? you need to put an oil cooler in so that you can drive the car LONGER without oil temp going up. This doesn't solve the problem but it'll allow you a much longer track time before heating the oil to 135C

http://www.the370z.com/vq37vhr/983-a...2-30-08-a.html

http://370ztune.com/images/product_i...9398_W1200.jpg (looks really nice )

http://www.the370z.com/images/370zfo...Z_com_ARC3.jpg

Here's central 20 version which is a little longer

http://370ztune.com/images/product_i...0b81_W1200.jpg

Btw, any pictures from the track?

Great info, thanks ! I asked the guys at Vivid to check out this thread and let me know options on the oil cooler... but from these two, I think I'd go with the bigger central 20 cooler... in Arizona, we need all the cooling we can get ! :)

I didn't take any pictures myself, but usually there are pics and vid that go up here:
Photos And Media - Club Racing AZ
I saw a lot of cameras around the side of the track, so I'm sure there will be some posted next few days. Look for anything marked "HPDE3"... i was running with about 30 other cars, so you'll have to sort through that group

Thanks again !

Cool. Well Vivid Racing is not one of our sponsors yet. You are more than welcome to contact and ask any of our sponsors about this issue. I'm sure they can give you a answer. Enjoy driving you Z.

The370Z approved Sponsors: The370Z.com Vendors and Sponsors - Nissan 370Z Forum

i thought this would be an issue ... same thing was happening to G37 owners.. an oil cooler will be one of my first mods

Good to know. I will definately keep an eye on that when I hit the track next weekend.

The problem with the ECU sounds a lot like "limp mode" on the 350, but more advanced. The 350Z computer would cut rpms down to 2500 as well and once you turned it off for a while, it would reset.

Seems the only solution would be cooling the oil as most already said. Adding more oil capacity and a cooler should do the trick. Also, had you swapped the oil yet since you picked it up from the dealer? That also may be some of the problem as I am sure the facory oil is more of a detergent/low grade oil. If you haven't yet, changing your oil should help a bit too. If you are doing a lot of tracking, I suggest Pure Power Motor Oil. Pure Power is used in NASCAR, and many many other professional racing series. The only bummer is, it only comes in 5 gallon jugs, not quarts. This is the same oil we run in the DoubleDownMotorsports.com Time Attack 350Z.

How were water temps?

Also how did the stock brakes hold up on the track?

BTW I think this one is probably you.

http://www.ryanmartinez.net/scripts/...filesize=large

Guys, let me just say that this board is awesome ! You guys are a wealth of knowledge, esp for someone like me that is a complete tech idiot ! THANKS

Yup, that's definitely me in the pic... that was the 2nd run of the day from the time and the fact that I didn't have more tire parts stuck to the front of my car ! here are some more:
HPDE 3 1030AM - HW9D7933
HPDE 3 1030AM - HW9D7932
HPDE 3 1030AM - IMG_2862
It definitely looks great ! got lots of attention - I think ppl were surprised to see it. Should be videos up on the az club racing site next few days.

FYI I got around the 924 and the boxster but the nissan 240 pwnd me ! I was passed by a heavily modified 996 and a 997 turbo throughout the day but I passed more cars than got by me.

I thought the brakes were good ! my boxster s had tremendous world-class pedal feel but it didn't stop as quick as the z. I don't recall any fading, but coming out of the nascar straight onto turn 1, I remember that I was often overbraking there and getting a little rotation... a bit unsettling at 90mph... it could have been me putting too much pressure, but it never happened in my porsche so i doubt it... guessing it was uneven pressure being applied to one or more wheels... it was manageable though... I plan to try racing pads (endless ?), but overall the brakes will be the last thing I upgrade. would appreciate a recommendation on pads - this car will be 80% track, 20% street for next 12 months.

DDM, you can be almost certain you're going to run into this overheating issue... please update us after your track event. Good luck and have fun !

You should see if Hawk is making pads yet... or if you want to spend the money; I think Endless has released there pads.

Edit: I know Hawk makes the HP Plus pads for the G37, but they are not listing the 370Z yet.

Hawk is making pads. I should have some HP+ on my doorstep within the next few days. :)

travisjb - I am a little worried by your comment about the brakes being the last thing you upgrade. Pads and fluid should be the FIRST thing you do. Its like buying a cheap parachute. Sure it may work, but its an area that I want to make sure I am overkill on. :)

Again, my questions though are were you running the stock detergent oil that came with the car? How were water temps?

Maybe some slotted rotors and upgraded pads would be a nice little investment!!!

The porsche has very different handling characteristics because of it's layout. Chances are what you are feeling is the rear end getting light because of a slightly abrupt weight transfer during turn-in. You should be able to minimize this when you get used to the car or if you get a stiffer suspension. Probably diving a little under brakes, minimizing contact patch in the rear...

Re brakes... that's exactly what I meant, sorry if i was unclear... I'm going to upgrade the pads, change to ATE high-temp fluid, but that's it for now... will do slotted rotors if i ever start getting fade or if the stock set wears out, but i think the calipers do their job well... my sense is that big brake kits are a lower priority vs everything else

Missed the water temp question... it was dead-nuts in the middle of the gauge the entire day ! Water cooling is robust on this car ! ask me again in July (arizona) !

Re handling per RCZ... you're absolutely right, it is a simple weight transfer issue, i should have thought of that... i was thinking uneven braking b/c it always seemed to break loose to the right, but that's b/c i was turning slightly left... the boxster is the only car i've tracked before this one and I was used to the heavier mid/rear and extremely stable trail braking... I believe you're right that a stiffer suspension and some practice will help me manage this better. if it continues to be an issue for me, perhaps I can have the brake bias front-rear tweaked ?

And, yes, all the fluids in the car were 100% as set by nissan / dealer

Cheers

Ok good. I believe that the stock sport package brakes should be sufficient far into the modification process with the proper pads/fluid/rotors.

Sweet!

I will try changing mine before hand then to see if that helps at all.

I wouldn't touch the brake balance just yet. I think you just need to upgrade your suspension and adjust your driving a little. If it were one of your first trackdays I'd say to leave it stock for a while and learn to adjust your driving, however since you have as much experience as you do, I think you could just jump to a nice set of coilovers and perhaps an anti-lift kit.

Also Mike, why don't you slap on an oil cooler before taking it to the track?

agreed ^ i know on my G37 the weight transfer was terrible before i installed my coil overs.

Thumbs up on tracking the car already! Did you happen to play around with the synchrorev at all for a lap or two? Curious to hear a first hand experience using that at the track.

I would def reccomend Intense.. They LOVE Z's and G's and are extremely knowledgable.

Re coilovers, yes, definitely... in fact, here's my current shopping list:

1. oil cooler... A BIG ONE ! :) maybe central 20
2. swap fluids for higher heat ones... ATE for brakes... trans ? diff ? 80-20 water to anti freeze... Pure Power Motor Oil (thanks DDM !)
3. HP... intake kit, pulley kit, test pipes, cat-back (agency power)
5. enkei wheels + Toyo R888s... likely 18x9.5 and 18x10.5 with 255s and 305s
6. Hawk + brake pads
7. find the right coilovers... not sure which... 700+lb/in springs
4. possible rear dif cooler... trans cooler
8. swap battery for oddyssey pc680
9. remove another 200 pounds... already pulled 100 lbs of plastic/spare tire... try to shift weight to rear
10. racing seat + harness (can i do 6-pt w/o roll cage ?)
11. continue race car mods... full roll cage, fire supression

I will probably hold off on '11' until at least the end of the year... welcome any critiques or suggestions on this list

RCZ, I'll look into anti-lift kits too, thanks for the tip !

Re synchrorev... yes, flawless... I haven't mastered heel / toe, so of course it just gave my buddies extra fodder to flog me with, but I have to say that synchro rev is def the way to go... one less thing to worry about and I consider it a safety feature b/c it gets you around the track faster and and takes some risk out of downshifting in a turn... especially helpful for those like me not used to trail braking a car with forward weight balance... not many technologies do safety AND performance - I'm sold ! and I think folks will stop ripping on it once these cars start winning races ! :)

thanks

You can have a custom oil cooler made for probably cheaper than the Central 20. All you need is a sandwich plate for the oil filter, a universal cooler, and lines cut to length. I have seen Intense do this on a few 350's. I'm sure Vivid can make something.

thanks, I'm definitely looking for 'go', not 'show', so the no-brand oil cooler is prob the way to go... once that's all done, i'll grab some pics and post in the engine section

Thanks for confriming that the 370z needs an oil cooler.

Just a note to the OP:

When your oil temp gets "buried" at 300+ degrees, its might be a good idea to slow down! We don't want to see "the first blow engine" thread anytime soon.

Again it really pisses me off that Nissan knows this is an issue.

LOL... As I mentioned earlier in the thread, I ended my runs earlier almost every time b/c of the overheating... once the oil hit 300, the rev limiter kicked in aggressively and I'm not sure I could've blown the engine at that point if i wanted to... but I agree, the last thing any of us need is to blow an engine when we should be spending that money on coilovers ;)... thanks for your note

Yes to the oil cooler, just get something that works, doesn't have to be $2000 to work.

Absolutely, do your brake fluid too while youre doing fluids :)

Sounds good, but the pulley kit mod isn't really to gain HP.

Can't go wrong with the R888's. I'd go 265 in the fronts though. Did you get much understeer on the track? Which enkeis are you looking at? RPF1's wont fit over the stock brakes in 18's, at least I really dont think so...

Also so you know, the R888's are good because they will last more than a few track days...however if its performance you are after...Hoosier R6's is 100% the way to go...

Are you talking about the Hawk HP+ ? Those are pretty good. I might start with them too.

Yeah that's not a bad Idea at all.

:tup:

:tup: Aim for 50/50.

More like do you NEED a 6 point? Honestly, probably not. A normal harness will do IMO.

If you're doing that then scrap your first 10 points lol, just go full race.


I like everything you are doing. The only stuff you need not forget and should actually be near the top of your list is upgrading your braking system a bit. RBF600 brake fluid, Hawk HP+ pads and DBA 5000 rotors. Stainless brake lines would be highly suggested as well, I currently have BFGoodridge ones and they do the job.

Other than that, :driving: on!

You forgot to remove the window regulators, air conditioning, speakers, any and all insulation, replace all glass with lexon....

haha just kidding. Sounds like you have your head set for a nice little track car. I like your list, I would only suggest maybe some SS braided brake lines for better bite.
Also, 6-point harness and a racing seat with no roll cage has always been a big no no based on what I have been told. Were the stock seats not supportive? Or are you just looking to shed that extra 20lbs/seat?

more great feedback, both of you, thanks

rcz... i'm 99% sure I'm going with r888s b/c of the cost and my desire to keep it semi-street legal for a while... no trailer/tow vehicle yet... one step at a time !... reason for 6-pt is that I would like to re-use the schroth harness from my boxster... suppose that will have to wait until i get farther along (roll cage etc)... not sure which enkei's, will let you know later... yup, HP+s... I saw you mentioned the DBA5000s in another thread... somewhat pricey... why are they so much better ? please tell me more, thanks

namir... i did remove the windshield wipers, headliner, and all the plastic and insulation starting behind the seats already! the side airbags and related gear will be goneso soon... the rest stays for now! :)... agree with braided brake lines, good add, I'll do that... yes, i'm used to more support that what i get from the stock seats and 3pt belt - I'll likely ditch the passenger seat and swap the drivers for a bride cuga or other... also wondering if i can re-use my porsche GT3 seat (Porsche | Performance | Porsche GT3 Seats)... i realize it is lame to have a porsche seat in a nissan, but i like this way this one feels... in any event, i'll make the seat decision later

Good choice on the tire, Rbf600 for fluid and braided lines are a good first step. I wouldn't bother with the disc just yet. It is widely accepted in the S2k realm that stock discs are usually the most cost effective solution (don't know if this is the case with the 370z as it is a heavy vehicle). I've spent a lot on different discs and ended up going back to stock and replacing more frequently.

I wouldn't run a harness without at least a roll bar in the car. It can be done, but its just not safe without it. I've been to a few tracks where this actually a rule.

Finally if you do end up getting a harness make sure you know how to strap in or else: ScienceDirect - Injury Extra : Scrotal injury following restrained impact: A risk of misnavigation:nutswinger:

OMFG ! that poor guy...

... so the harness straps need to be snug and free of ball sack... WILL NOT FORGET ! :)

Ok, so I have a few little bits to add...

First and foremost DO NOT run a racing harness without roll over protection. If you are planning on getting a BRIDE Cuga, that will work fine with the stock belts until you get a roll cage. If you roll your car and the roof caves in, the stock belts allow your body to twist and move to take the force of the roof coming down on you. Harnesses do the opposite, and all of that force will be taken on by your neck, which can't handle much.

Second, your weight balance issues comes partly from you removing 100 lbs. of weight. Most of this weight came from the rear, making it an uneven weight distribution from the start. Also, without alignment adjustments, your rear tires were probably a little on the positive camber side because of the higher ride height due to the weight reduction. This problem amplifies itself under braking when even more weight is transferred off the rear onto the front. When you switch to the Odyssey PC680 I suggest buying a battery relocation kit along with it and moving the battery to the rear of the car.

Toyo R888s are an excellent tire, but the sizes you listed are WAY too staggered for a front engine car. Since you are coming from a Porsche I will forgive you :). If you are going 305 in the rear, I would go 285 up front.

Also, feel free to PM me if you want to get more in depth about all of this or if you need price quotes on parts. :)

Man, you guys are great !

I'm clear on the no harness, unless you have a roll cage rule, thanks for reinforcing the point for my benefit and anyone else reading this thread

I was probably being overzealous in pulling weight at this early stage, given that you're right it mostly came from the rear half (except engine cover + wipers!)... would appreciate any advice on how to get more weight out of the front without compromising safety or removing a/c or windows... e.g., I will definitely pursue the battery relo kit

Thanks for the advice on tire sizes... assuming my offset places the wheel at its outermost point relative to fenders, do you think 285s will rub in the front ? should i bring it down to 265/285 ?

I will definitely refer my local shop to you as possible source for parts

Thanks again

Thanks!

Unfortunately taking weight off the front is much harder than it is in the rear. Relocating the battery is a big step in the right direction. Another way is swapping the stock cats with test pipes or high flow cats which will save 10-12 pounds off the front. The other unfortunate thing is that adding oil capacity and an oil cooler, will then put some more of that weight back onto the front. Unfortunately I can't think of any other relatively easy ways to take weight off the nose while maintaining structural integrity and all of the creature comforts.

As for the tire sizes, I have already fit the 295/30/18 tires onto the front of the 370Z just fine :). An 18"x 9.5" front with a +27 to +30 range should fit the 285s just fine.

Good to know re tires... lesson learned from prior car is that bigger front tires = more stress on power steering pump, so I'll be interested to find out how that holds up with 285s/295s

I wonder if the oil cooler could be placed in the mid/rear somewhere? probably not a lot of weight, but every bit helps I suppose

Yes it is more stress on the power steering but it should be fine. The stock power steering cooler on the 370Z is the same as the Nismo power steering cooler that you can buy aftermarket for the 350Z. I have run 295 Hoosiers, up front on my time attack 350Z with the Nismo power steering cooler without any problems whatsoever and it isn't even in direct airflow like the 370Z one is.

Placing the oil cooler near the back would be fine, but you may have to run a pump to help get the fluids to travel all that distance.