Montoya: Verstappen didn’t have intention of making Turn 4 in Hamilton incident
By:
Haydn Cobb
Nov 18, 2021, 7:42 AM
Juan Pablo Montoya believes Max Verstappen intentionally ran wide in his Turn 4 clash with Formula 1 title rival Lewis Hamilton and has questioned inconsistencies from the FIA.

Later today, the FIA stewards will hear new evidence over the incident between Verstappen and Hamilton on lap 48 and Turn 4 to judge if it needs to be investigated after the controversial clash wasn’t referred for an stewards’ investigation during the Brazilian Grand Prix.

Mercedes requested a right to review the incident after new evidence came to light, primarily the forward-facing camera footage from Verstappen’s F1 car which was published on Tuesday after the race.

Given the high-profile collisions between the F1 title rivals throughout this season, Mercedes were surprised the incident wasn’t deemed worthy of an investigation, with FIA race director Michael Masi revealing after the race Verstappen’s onboard footage wasn’t checked before ruling out an investigation.

Immediately after the race Verstappen said his worn tyres were the reason why he ran wide at Turn 4.

Speaking on This Week with Will Buxton about the incident, Montoya felt Verstappen was taking the F1 title fight implications into consideration, knowing Hamilton needed to finish ahead of him to strengthen his championship hopes, and that he wasn’t going to make the corner due to how late he braked when fighting Hamilton.

“My honest opinion, the way I think Max looks at it is: if they crash he gains points,” Montoya said. “As long as Lewis doesn't finish ahead of him, he's in a better situation for the championship.

“Lewis was alongside him and cleared him in the braking zone. There was no way as late as he braked he was gonna make the corner. I don't think he had much of an intention of making the corner.

“I don't have anything against Max. I actually really like Max and Red Bull, and they've done an amazing job to bring the fight to Mercedes. But I think they're being surprised of how good Mercedes was.”

Montoya also felt it was inconsistency from the FIA over on-track incidents, pointing to the penalties handed out to Lando Norris and Sergio Perez (twice) during the Austrian GP earlier this season.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/mo...ident/6794780/

More or less echoing the sentiment of FIA inconsistency. Still waiting to see the results of this investigation.

Yes we all have great opinions but that result today is all that matters lol.

Mercedes' Brazilian GP appeal verdict delayed till Friday
Nov 18, 2021, 1:30 PM
Formula 1’s race stewards have delayed until Friday their decision over whether or not to grant Mercedes right to review on Max Verstappen’s driving in Brazil.

Unlike the incident at Silverstone 80% or more of professional drivers, past and present state that Max was in the wrong!

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

So I'm seeing the request to review was denied:

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/an...iving/6798618/

I guess this is now allowed for the final three races. Seems like a convenient rule change given there are clear previous incidents that were penalized. >_>

The FIA need a make over far more than the cars and engines!! :tup:

Lewis can't afford to risk his car to pull this move on Max in the future, but Valtteri could definitely use this interpretation of the rule should he find himself in that situation. The problem is Valtteri lets anyone through.

This is a can of worms that the FIA just opened.

LeClerc said he will no treat Max the same given the new ruling. Max needs to remember it can go both ways. Frankly id love to see him punted off the track.

I'd rather not see anyone get punted off for the sake of competition, but Max now has a huge target on his back should he find himself in same-lap traffic. He's got a poor rep on the grid already with other drivers.

Fernando is for sure going to run someone wide this weekend to prove a point.

Max is a liar and 2 faced idiot. He calls for fair racing and a full cars width.
He is the worst of the talented drivers on the grid - the upper level of drivers.

He has not changed or grown since he moved under braking and took himself and Ricci out in Baku. Zero growth. I wish him the worst luck in racing. Period. FK him.

Sainz and not Charles into Q3-- wow...............

Perez fail lol

Bottas winning the 'Wingman' trophy over Perez lol.

Ferrari have serious understeer.

A moment ago
New

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ve...ement/6802833/

Verstappen summoned to stewards for yellow flags infringement in Qatar qualifying
By: Jonathan Noble
Co-author: Alex Kalinauckas
Nov 20, 2021, 12:45 PM
Max Verstappen has been summoned to see the stewards at Formula 1’s Qatar Grand Prix after allegedly ignoring double waved yellow flags on his final qualifying lap.

Verstappen's hearing with the stewards will take place at 1pm local time (10am GMT) tomorrow - four hours before the start of the Qatar GP.

For recent grands prix, the FIA has automatically deleted lap times in practice and qualifying when double waved yellows are shown – but there has been no notification about that happening for qualifying so far.

Should Verstappen be found guilty of ignoring the flags, he would lose his final lap time and could also face a grid penalty on safety grounds.

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/ha...clash/6802878/

Hamilton: F1 racing rules "not clear" after FIA briefing post-Brazil clash
By: Alex Kalinauckas
Nov 20, 2021, 11:54 AM
Lewis Hamilton says Formula 1’s racing rules are still “not clear” despite the drivers having lengthy discussions with the FIA following Max Verstappen’s controversial defence against him in Brazil.

But Verstappen disagrees, saying that after the drivers’ briefing in Qatar ahead of this weekend’s inaugural F1 race at the Losail track, which is understood to have lasted over an hour, that the situation “was in the end pretty clear”.

After the Sao Paulo event stewards ruled that Mercedes’ request for a right of review into the decision that meant Verstappen’s initial defence at Interlagos’ Turn 4 did not to be fully investigated, the F1 pack held long talks with race director Michael Masi on Friday night in the usual drivers’ briefing slot – held as a video conference due to F1’s COVID-19 requirements.

Verstappen said the briefing consisted of drivers “sharing their opinions and then the FIA explaining their process of thought behind it”, but F1’s two leading drivers were left split on the matter in their comments following qualifying in Qatar on Saturday evening.

After Hamilton had claimed pole by a massive 0.563s over Verstappen, he was asked if it was now clear what defensive driving was acceptable following the Qatar drivers’ briefing, to which he replied: “No.

“It's not clear. Every driver, I think, expect for Max, was asking about just for clarity.

“Most drivers were asking for clarity, but it wasn't very clear.

“So, yeah - it's still not clear what the limits of the track are. It's clearly not the white line any more, so when overtaking. So we just go for it and...

“We just ask for consistency. So, if it's the same as the last race then that should be the same for all of us in those scenarios and then its fine.”


Verstappen, who answered before Hamilton, said: “Everyone is different, right? And everyone has their own way of racing and defending and overtaking, and of course it's very hard for the FIA as well to get everyone on the same line.

“Of course, they decide, but every driver has a different opinion and then I think yesterday it was all about sharing their opinions and then the FIA explaining their process of thought behind it.

“So, I think we came a long way and it was a very long briefing. So, yeah, I think it was in the end pretty clear.”

Hamilton later stated that should he engage in a wheel-to-wheel fight in Sunday’s race then he would approach any such situation understanding “that what happened in the last race is OK”.

But he then said the drivers had been informed that different stewards could rule differently if the same scenario that occurred in Brazil were to play out again.

“It's not clear, as I said,” Hamilton continued.

“They said it's going to be different with different stewards.

“If we had the same ones as last week, this week it is one way - so we'll see.”

Valtteri Bottas, who finished third in Qatar qualifying behind the two title contenders, said of the racing rules confusion: “I mean it is clear in that way that if it's a similar incident [as] in Brazil then that's OK.

“But obviously it's always a fine line, but also the consistency that's the key and for us to know exactly [what is allowed].

“I don't think we got really an explanation like what we actually can do or not.

“So, I mean every overtake, every defending is different, so I'm sure they try to do the best job giving the best penalties or no penalties.

“I don't think it really changes anything, we'll obviously go for it and at least we know that's what Lewis and Max ended up having in Brazil that that is OK. That's a good thing to know.”

Alonso!

Best result of the year along with Ricci's win earlier this season. Real racers doing well. Love it!

https://www.autosport.com/f1/news/bi...cedes/6812019/

Bizarre quirk of Qatar kerbs caused F1 problems, reckons Mercedes
By: Jonathan Noble
Co-author: Adam Cooper
Nov 23, 2021, 4:13 AM
The brutal car damage dished out by the kerbs at Formula 1's Losail circuit was a result of them not being aggressive enough, reckons Mercedes.

A number of drivers hit trouble over the Qatar weekend as they suffered car and tyre damage throughout the event.

Charles Leclerc and Nikita Mazepin both had to swap chassis following damage caused by kerb strikes, while Pierre Gasly smashed a front wing that triggered a puncture at the end of qualifying.

In the race, it is suspected that the repeated running over the kerbs played a part in the tyre failures that were suffered by Valtteri Bottas, Lando Norris and Williams duo George Russell and Nicholas Latifi.

Rather than the issue being that the kerbs were too rough, Mercedes head of trackside engineering Andrew Shovlin says the situation was so difficult because the kerbs were actually too low – so there was no deterrent to running over them.

"It is strange because the issue is that they are actually quite smooth, so therefore you can run all over them," he explained.

"When you run all over them, the front wings are very low to the ground and they are being clipped, plus the tyres are being hit pretty hard by them.

"In a bizarre way, if they were more aggressive it would probably be easier for the cars and the tyres.

"But the fact that you can get on them, and the quickest thing is to get on them as well, means you have got to do it here, and therein lies the risk."


F1 race director Michael Masi said that there was nothing unique about the kerb design at Losail, which are regularly in place at both MotoGP and F1 venues.

He cited the fact that the exit same kerb concepts are used without complaint at the final sequence of the Red Bull Ring in Austria.

"They're the standard FIA / FIM kerbs that we've seen at the last two corners at Austria forever," he said.

"I think one of the things is that drivers were trying to use everything to their full advantage."

Pirelli has opened an investigation in to what caused the tyre failures in the Qatar race, and will examine whether drivers abusing the kerbs was a key factor in the punctures.

The Italian tyre manufacturer's head of F1 and car racing Mario Isola said: "Any small debris, any kerb, can cause a small puncture.

"Then, losing air, the tyre when it's broken is not able to sustain the high level of energy that these cars are putting on the tyres."

Sure, run 37 laps on a tire that the manufacturer said was good for 31, and then blame Pirelli (talking to you, Lando - just because Lewis and Sergio can pull that kind of miracle off doesn't mean everyone can). Or the curbs. Or probably inflation pressures, which no doubt the teams are pushing to the very limits of the new scrutiny.

The fact that it was the left front in each case, makes the curb a plausible culprit. That F1 hasn't run here before contributed to the lack of data on true tire life expectancy.

The front left was put through stupid loads, especially through sector 3. I agree, those kerbs probably didn't help, but like you said, Pirelli recommended a two-stop.

I did notice Lewis was nowhere near the exit kerbs the whole race. Even I was like, "you can use a little more track if you wanted to man!" but it was probably a good idea. Im sure Max did the same after he damaged a bit of his front wing on them.

over all it was an interesting race, happy for Alonso
Bottas -- just plain bad luck....

It was a good race and score one for the old guys! So happy for Alonzo. I think MB made another bad strategy call with Bottas. They had enough time to bring Bottas in and he would have still been in front of Perez before Perez made his second pit stop. It was a risky gamble to keep him out and they lost.

It is also interesting to hear Max say he is not worried. That is just BS! He has lost two races in a row to a seven time world champion who is in the zone and smells blood. LMAO, RB is ******** bricks right now. They so far have no answer to pace that MB has found and MB's motor is fresher than theirs.

Sent from my SM-G965U using Tapatalk

Re the punctures - there is another possibility....
https://scontent.fyzd1-3.fna.fbcdn.n...2f&oe=61A31532

Again-- LH driving smarter not harder.

When you on purpose do not make a corner to run your competitor off the track you are LOSING. Thats pressure and desperation.

Exactly, if he takes out Lewis and himself he wins! Desperation at its best.

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Lewis is wise to his crappy ways. That won't happen.

https://www.formula1.com/en/racing/2...a/Circuit.html

Jeddah Corniche Circuit
First Grand Prix
2021

Number of Laps
50

Circuit Length
6.174km

Race Distance
308.45 km


What's the circuit like?
Fast. Very fast. Average speeds around the Jeddah Corniche Circuit are set to be 252km/h – quicker than those at Silverstone, and second on the 2021 calendar only to Monza – aka ‘The Temple of Speed’. It will, quite simply, be the fastest street circuit ever seen in Formula 1 – while the track will also feature the most corners on the 2021 calendar with 27, many of them quick, sinuous bends as the drivers wend their way along the Jeddah waterfront.

You sure about "first Grand Prix 2021", and not March 2022???
:-)

Looks like perhaps we'll get two decent passing corners per lap - is it clockwise or counter-clockwise?

Edit - never mind the question - I see when I blow up the thumbnail it is counter-clockwise.

https://www.planetf1.com/news/max-ve...-review/edBull

RedBull or Max would not say such things if THEY were using the rule as is. They can do the same. Shut it.

Frank Williams passed away today at 79..

https://racer.com/2021/11/28/remembe...ams-1942-2021/

RIP Sir Frank Williams

https://www.skysports.com/f1/news/12...1-this-weekend


Saudi Arabian GP: When to watch practice, qualifying and the race live on Sky Sports F1 this weekend
F1 2021's penultimate round takes place at the sport's new fastest street track, with another potentially decisive weekend in the Max Verstappen-Lewis Hamilton title fight; watch qualifying at 5pm on Saturday, race at 5.30pm on Sunday - live on Sky Sports F1

Last Updated: 30/11/21 12:10pm

Two more races, only one champion. Max Verstappen and Lewis Hamilton's epic title battle heads for its penultimate round this weekend with the first-ever Saudi Arabian GP - and you can watch all the action, and possibly the crowning of a champion, live on Sky Sports F1.

Verstappen and Hamilton, who have been closely-matched all season long, are split by just eight points ahead of the inaugural race at Jeddah's newly-built Corniche Circuit - officially the fastest street track in F1 history.

That points margin means Verstappen can clinch the title this weekend, but also means there is the very real prospect of a 'winner-takes-all' season finale in Abu Dhabi, with Hamilton and Mercedes the driver and team in form.

A new track with jeopardy at every corner and a championship on the line - it is set up to be a crucial and incredibly exciting weekend.

The key times are:

Qualifying is live on Sky Sports F1 and Sky Sports Main Event on Saturday at 5pm
The race is live on Sky Sports F1 and Sky Sports Main Event on Sunday at 5.30pm

How Verstappen can win title at Saudi Arabian GP

If he wins the race with the fastest lap (26 points) and Hamilton finishes sixth (8 points) or lower
If he wins the race without the fastest lap (25 points) and Hamilton finishes seventh (6 points) or lower
If he finishes second with the fastest lap (19 points) and Hamilton finishes 10th (1 point) or lower
If he finishes second without the fastest lap (18 points) and Hamilton finishes outside the top-10

What is the Saudi Arabia track like?

The Jeddah Corniche track joins F1 as its newest street circuit, with a specially-built layout designed to encourage fast wheel-to-wheel racing. And the drivers will not have seen anything much like it.

With an average speed of over 160mph, it only falls behind Monza in terms of the fastest on the whole calendar, all while surrounded by barriers and little run-off. Think the challenges and tight walls of Monaco, Singapore and Baku with the speed and flowing corners of Spa.

The track, located on the Corniche - a coastal resort area of Jeddah - alongside the Red Sea, will also be the second longest in F1 behind Spa, while it has 27 corners to contend with, most of which are high-speed turns.
Jeddah Corniche key track facts
Circuit length 6.174km
Corners 27
DRS zones 3
Race distance 50 laps

There are also set to be three DRS zones for the event to encourage overtaking, with straight-line speed certainly set to be a factor despite the number of turns.

"The design brings out the best of a modern street circuit but also has fast-paced free-flowing areas that will create fast speeds and overtaking opportunities," said F1 managing director of motorsports Ross Brawn.

It will host the first F1 race in Saudi Arabia, although it is unlikely to be a permanent home for the races despite the country's lengthy deal for a spot on the calendar.

A purpose-built venue is being constructed closer to the capital of Riyadh, with the Jeddah Corniche track - which has been completed in less than a year - set to be used until around 2024.

I guess every corner in Jeddah can be described as a "hairpin".

Jeddah from the air at night. Amazing view of circuit!

Max Verstappen & Lewis Hamilton set for thrilling Formula 1 finale


By Andrew Benson
Chief F1 writer
Last updated on 9 hours ago9 hours ago.
From the section Formula 1
675

Lewis Hamilton and Max VErstappen
The Saudi Arabian Grand Prix is live on BBC Radio 5 Live and the BBC Sport website
The most intense Formula 1 championship fight for years will be decided over the next two weekends in the Middle East.

Red Bull's Max Verstappen leads Mercedes' Lewis Hamilton by eight points. Races in Saudi Arabia and Abu Dhabi bring the season to a close, both on tracks that contain unknowns for the teams and drivers.

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Verstappen has the advantage - with his points lead, he can become champion on the new street track in Jeddah this weekend if results go his way.

But Hamilton has the momentum. He is heading into the climax of the season on the back of two convincing wins and with the performance trend clearly favouring his team.

'I don't think there will be as much Mr Nice Guy'
'You have to be the smarter one' - Hamilton on Verstappen & beating school bullies
So much is at stake. If Verstappen wins, it will mark the start of a new era - his first drivers' title, final confirmation of his status as the leading man of the new generation of F1 stars, and the end of seven years of Mercedes domination.

If Hamilton wins, he will set a new all-time record for championships. Already the most successful F1 driver in history, with more wins and pole positions than anyone else, and equal on titles with Michael Schumacher, an eighth crown would move him clear on every possible statistical measure.

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Lewis Hamilton and Michael Schumacher both have seven world titles
The points situation

Verstappen can clinch his first title on Sunday in the following ways:

If he wins with fastest lap point, and Hamilton is lower than fifth
If he wins without fastest lap point, and Hamilton is lower than sixth
If he is second with fastest lap, and Hamilton is lower than ninth
If he is second and Hamilton does not score.
For practical purposes, it's simpler than that. In a normal race, without crashes, controversies or problems for either driver, the two title contenders will finish first and second.

They are faster than their team-mates, who will be subject to team orders to help them, and no other team is likely to be competitive enough to disrupt their battle.

In that context, what's at stake is simple. If Verstappen beats Hamilton in Saudi Arabia, the Dutchman is highly likely to end the season as champion.

A Verstappen win with Hamilton second would extend the Red Bull driver's points lead to either 14, 15, or 16 points, depending on who sets fastest lap, for which a point is awarded. With that margin, Hamilton would be relying on Verstappen hitting trouble in Abu Dhabi to have any chance of becoming champion.

But if Hamilton wins with Verstappen second, the gap between them will reduce to either nothing, one or two points. And that would set up a winner-takes-all showdown at Yas Marina.

Lewis Hamilton and Max Vestappen
Hamilton and Verstappen have clashed twice on track this season, including September's bizarre coming together at the Italian Grand Prix
Who is faster at the moment?

There is a clear performance trend - and that favours Mercedes.

Looking at the cars' pure pace in qualifying, over the first half of the season, the Red Bull was faster - by 0.014 seconds on average.

But over the second half of the season, the tables have turned in Mercedes' favour. Its average advantage in qualifying is 0.248secs over that period.

Nevertheless, qualifying pace does not necessarily determine who will win the race. And in any case it's very difficult to predict which of the two teams will have the fastest car in Jeddah and Abu Dhabi.

On paper, both teams expect the Mercedes to be the quicker package. It is faster on the straights, and both circuits are what are known as "power-sensitive" - ie engine performance has a large effect on lap time.

But their relative competitiveness has not always followed the expected trends this season. Take the US Grand Prix in Austin last month, for example. A Hamilton stronghold ever since its first race in 2012, Red Bull turned the tables on Mercedes this year. They had the quicker car and Verstappen won the race.

Hamilton believes it is impossible to predict which car will suit which circuit best this season, so tight has it been, so much has form fluctuated.

"I personally don't see a pattern," he says. "It's random. I would imagine by now the engineers maybe have a little bit more of an understanding, but I still personally think it's quite random and unexpected.

"And obviously there are so many different elements to why that could be: different types of corners, different track surface, different ambient temperatures, track temps. It is wild."

Be that as it may, Red Bull are worried about Saudi Arabia, in particular. The new street circuit has a number of fast, flat-out sections and not that many corners that require hard braking.

That in itself should favour Mercedes. Then add into the equation that Hamilton will be using for just the second time the new engine he fitted for the Brazilian Grand Prix, when he took his most spectacular win of the season, coming from the back of the grid in the sprint qualifying race, and a five-place grid penalty in the grand prix, to win.

But it's not necessarily that simple. Will the Mercedes be faster than the Red Bull on the straights in Jeddah? Almost certainly, yes. Does that mean it will be faster over a lap? Not necessarily.

The interaction between track surface and tyres is so critical in F1. If Mercedes struggle to get their tyres into the correct operating window and Red Bull don't, that could easily swing things back in Red Bull's favour.

There are question marks about Abu Dhabi, too.

Unlike Jeddah, it is a track well known to teams, having held a grand prix since 2009. But it has undergone extensive revisions this year to try to eradicate its reputation as a terrible track for racing.

A chicane has been taken out before the hairpin on to the first long back straight. The left-right-left-left sequence at the end of the second back straight has been replaced by one long banked corner. And the corners around the marina have been reprofiled to make it easier to follow other cars.

It is, in effect, a new track, demanding new downforce levels, and a new set-up.


There is a shadow hanging over the final two races - that of a potential protest by Red Bull against Mercedes.

Red Bull have spent the last two grands prix in Brazil and Qatar highlighting what they claim are questions as to whether the Mercedes rear wing complies with the regulations.

They believe that the main plane of the wing flexes backwards, reducing drag and increasing straight-line speed.

Team principal Christian Horner has spoken publicly about this at both races.

In Brazil, the team made a number of representations to the stewards about it. In Qatar, Horner claimed Hamilton's straight-line speed advantage over the rest of the field as he climbed through the pack in Brazil was "not normal", and he spoke of the existence of "score marks" on the inside of the wing's end plate that provide proof of their claims.

Verstappen has claimed Red Bull have video evidence of the wing flexing. There are various photos and videos floating around the internet purporting to show one aspect or another of these allegations.

Mercedes reject Horner's claims. They say Red Bull are "seeing ghosts", that there are no score marks on the wing, and no credible evidence of the accusations being true, because they're not.

They say Hamilton's straight-line speed in Brazil was nothing out of the ordinary given he had a brand new engine in the car, had the DRS overtaking aid in operation much of the time as he passed cars, and they are quicker on the straights than Red Bull anyway.

A new test on rear wing rigidity was introduced in Qatar. The Mercedes wing - the same one, they say, as used in Brazil - passed it comfortably.

Team boss Toto Wolff said: "We struggle to keep up with commenting on the rumours that are being made from that side [Red Bull]."

Red Bull were mollified by what they perceived as a drop in Mercedes' straight-line speed in Qatar - but Hamilton was using an older engine there, and the reversion to the new one used in Brazil could well lead to Red Bull's complaints being revived in Saudi Arabia.

Meanwhile, Red Bull have their own problems to do with rear wings.

In three of the last four races, their DRS flap has been seen oscillating when it is open. Each time, Red Bull have tried to repair it.

The problem seems to be caused by some kind of aerodynamic phenomenon that overloads the DRS mechanism, causing it to fail. And it only occurs on Red Bull's medium-downforce rear wing.

In Qatar, they resolved the problem by switching to the high-downforce wing, Horner claiming this was their "preferred option".

But the medium downforce wing is the one that they would be expected to want to use at both Jeddah and Abu Dhabi - neither of which, on paper, suit a high-downforce set-up.

Horner admits: "If those wings are required in Jeddah or Abu Dhabi, we will need to have fixes in place to strengthen the DRS mechanism."

Work has been going on at Red Bull in the gap between races to try to fix it. If they can't find a solution, though, and that prevents them using that wing, it could put Red Bull at a significant disadvantage at the final two races.


The human rights question—

This weekend's race in Saudi Arabia will likely lead to a revival of the moral questions raised by the last event in Qatar.

Like other sports, F1 has found it impossible to resist the large amounts of money offered by these countries to host events.

Amnesty International, which describes the human rights records of both countries as "extremely troubling", says the regimes are attempting to 'sportswash' their global reputations.

F1 president Stefano Domenicali said before Qatar that he hoped F1's presence could lead to progress on human rights, and that shutting the countries off would be a mistake.

Hamilton said in Qatar that F1 was "duty bound" to raise awareness of human rights issues in the countries and said they "need scrutiny".

Both countries have signed expensive, long-term contracts with F1, so this will be a controversy the sport faces for many years to come.

I want a pair of these driving shoes. Who makes them?


https://youtu.be/NgpGSSuSi18

Puma - probably the Alfa Team shoe. He is driving an Alfa.

Wish I could find some decent driving shoes in 12EE. Damn things are always extremely narrow :shakes head:

I have wide feet too. LMAO!!!!