Nissan Corp. bullying American employees.

MMC Racing · 05-05-2014, 10:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

I dunno, man... the UAW doesn't have any skeletons in its collective closet worse than any auto manufacturer -- at worst, they're the lesser of the evils, and they certainly don't have the kind of wealth and influence that car company CEO's have.

I'm 100% for unionization and collective bargaining for employees, no matter what the shirt collar is. A lone worker has absolutely no leverage on his or her own.

Corporations are organizations and they are organized to ensure that profits go to the tippy-top, but historically very rarely allow any to even lightly trickle down without some collective effort from those who actually do the work.

Un-organized workers have fewer (or no) resources at their disposal to ensure a fair share of the profits from their work... lack of worker organization in the US has steadily eroded salaries for the past 30+ years, which is why CEO pay is stratospheric and everyone else's wages are stagnant.

I find it hard to believe that Nissan (or any large corporation) better represent the "good guys" here.

So, while your point is well taken -- it's pretty hard for me to not side with the UAW. There may be some genuine villainy within them, but it is historically always lesser in scope and magnitude than the companies they wrangle with.

BTW: Japan has strong unionization, but if a Japanese auto company opens a plant here, they simply don't support it. So, UAW does have a legitimate dog in this fight.

Employees with in-demand skills always have leverage. They don't need a union and in fact would be held back by one.

SouthArk370Z · 05-05-2014, 11:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MMC Racing

Employees with in-demand skills always have leverage. They don't need a union and in fact would be held back by one.

Good point but, given the vagaries of the job market and economy, one's in-demand status can change quickly. Granted, that alone shouldn't guide one's decision, but feces occurs and a good union can be a big help if for nothing else than finding training and a new job when your skills become obsolete.

And I don't see how a union would necessarily hold them back. I've seen plants where the company and the union co-operated for the good of all. Although it is an us-vs-them relationship all too often, it doesn't have to be.

I'm not particularly pro- or anti- union. They have their place but aren't appropriate for all situations. If you work for a good company, then you don't need a union. Not all people are so fortunate.

daisuke149 · 05-05-2014, 11:43 AM

Lets keep in mind, that as stated by someone, that the idea of unions is still good and valid. And there is a need. There are alot of smaller unions that still do great things. But there are some (the largest at times) that lose their way. Attempting to justify their existence.

Bad people on both sides many times. Greed exists in individuals, corporations, unions, etc.

When i did a short stint at ATT during school, they had unions there. They presented, etc and pretty much pressured the join. Those who did not join were bullied in a way. When it came down to a incident at work where I followed the released bulliten to the entire enterprise, and my boss did not read it, thus raised the issue as to why I was doing the task. The union, protected her as a long standing member stating that I should not challenge a senior union member who has worked here for a while. I quit.

RonRizz · 05-05-2014, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SouthArk370Z

Good point but, given the vagaries of the job market and economy, one's in-demand status can change quickly. Granted, that alone shouldn't guide one's decision, but feces occurs and a good union can be a big help if for nothing else than finding training and a new job when your skills become obsolete.

And I don't see how a union would necessarily hold them back. I've seen plants where the company and the union co-operated for the good of all. Although it is an us-vs-them relationship all too often, it doesn't have to be.

I'm not particularly pro- or anti- union. They have their place but aren't appropriate for all situations. If you work for a good company, then you don't need a union. Not all people are so fortunate.

It is also VERY common for companies (such as the one I work for) to own and operate both union AND open shop at the same time. simple legal loopholes to dance around. We split in 2005 from our parent company, and currently own 7 other Open shop outfits, and work with them hand in hand. There are occasional rough spots, of course, but mainly all moves along smoothly.
If I didn't like where I was working, for whatever reason, I would move on, Union, Open shop.....Whatever. My choice. Just like it is yours.
The men who work for me are highly skilled due to required apprenticeship training, and are extremely hard working. They deserve every penny they get.
The comment regarding a skilled in-demand employee having leverage in their workplace is partially true, but at the same time naïve. Walk into your bosses office, and ask for a cost of living raise (does anyone remember those??) Now run the same scenario with your boss with 35,000 of your brothers at your side............That's leverage.
I don't mean to come off as a book-pounding hardcore union guy, that's just not who I am, I have, and would work on both sides of the fence without any qualms. I just happen to like where I'm at right now.

Jordo! · 05-05-2014, 08:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

Indeed it can be. Greed by corporations, greed by unions. Plenty of greed to go around. It's an occasional-but unfortunate byproduct of capitalism, the foundation of the US economy. Fortunately, there are laws about that now. Yes....thanks in large part to unions, from back in the days when they were more useful than harmful to the US economy.

This is why completely unrestrained capitalism (essentially, the path the US has been on up through the Great Depression, and then again after about 1979 onward) is a bad thing for the vast majority of the people.

Jobs are only coming back to the US because it's recently become cheaper to employ US citizens than workers in offshore sweatshops -- that's nothing to celebrate.

Close relevant tax loopholes and introduce penalties for moving jobs offshore (but good luck seeing such legislature pass...)

The result is the current economy where there is vast wealth in the hands of a very, very small group, a completely obliterated middle class, and (hilariously) jobs coming back to the US 'cause its cheaper.

In short: Further cost cutting isn't the solution and never was.

The invisible hand is not invisible, a force of nature, nor even a hand; it's a well developed, highly controlled, rapaciously grasping razor sharp claw. Organized workers (and citizens who understand this) reflect the only force historically capable of blunting it.

MacCool · 05-05-2014, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

This is why completely unrestrained capitalism (essentially, the path the US has been on up through the Great Depression, and then again after about 1979 onward) is a bad thing for the vast majority of the people.

Jobs are only coming back to the US because it's recently become cheaper to employ US citizens than workers in offshore sweatshops -- that's nothing to celebrate.

Close relevant tax loopholes and introduce penalties for moving jobs offshore (but good luck seeing such legislature pass...)

The result is the current economy where there is vast wealth in the hands of a very, very small group, a completely obliterated middle class, and (hilariously) jobs coming back to the US 'cause its cheaper.

In short: Further cost cutting isn't the solution and never was.

The invisible hand is not invisible, a force of nature, nor even a hand; it's a well developed, highly controlled, rapaciously grasping razor sharp claw. Organized workers (and citizens who understand this) reflect the only force historically capable of blunting it.

Thank you Mr. President....

Jordo! · 05-06-2014, 12:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MacCool

Thank you Mr. President....

Thank FDR

MMC Racing · 05-06-2014, 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jordo!

This is why completely unrestrained capitalism (essentially, the path the US has been on up through the Great Depression, and then again after about 1979 onward) is a bad thing for the vast majority of the people.

Jobs are only coming back to the US because it's recently become cheaper to employ US citizens than workers in offshore sweatshops -- that's nothing to celebrate.

This is not true at all. The salaries are still not cheaper. What has changed is the offshore work is no longer cheap enough to offset the negatives that exist - intellectual property theft, shipping costs, shifting government regulations, cultures that expect bribes as part of standard business, etc.

America is not cheaper, the gap is just much closer when all things are considered these days.

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05-05-2014, 11:43 AM	#33 (permalink)
daisuke149 My *** is famous! Join Date: Mar 2010 Location: Alpharetta, GA Posts: 4,849 Drives: 2013 Boss 302 PW Rep Power: 31	Lets keep in mind, that as stated by someone, that the idea of unions is still good and valid. And there is a need. There are alot of smaller unions that still do great things. But there are some (the largest at times) that lose their way. Attempting to justify their existence. Bad people on both sides many times. Greed exists in individuals, corporations, unions, etc. When i did a short stint at ATT during school, they had unions there. They presented, etc and pretty much pressured the join. Those who did not join were bullied in a way. When it came down to a incident at work where I followed the released bulliten to the entire enterprise, and my boss did not read it, thus raised the issue as to why I was doing the task. The union, protected her as a long standing member stating that I should not challenge a senior union member who has worked here for a while. I quit.