AutoObserver; What's Wrong At Honda? Maybe Everything

cjof2003 · 05-28-2010, 08:45 PM

Read this on the RSX site, and sadly everyone there agrees. I feel its spot on. What do you guys think?

http://www.autoobserver.com/2010/05/...verything.html

Quote:

It's unusual for Honda Motor Co. Ltd. to deviate from its rigid model-replacement schedule, particularly for its bread-and-butter volume models such as the Civic. But that's just what the company is doing with the planned Civic replacement, pushing back the car's introduction from this fall until sometime next year.

The next-generation Civic apparently was not on competitive target - and Honda sent it back to the garage for tinkering. Although some analysts and industry insiders think Honda's choice to rejigger the Civic is a positive signal, the fact the Civic has to go back to the drawing board at such a late stage speaks plenty about how far Honda has drifted from its once-indomitable methods.

Honda, which always used to be so good at having its finger on the pulse of the buying public, seemingly has exhausted its famed product-development mojo. Yes, the cars - including the now almost 5-year-old Civic - still sell. The company reversed losses from the global industry downturn and for the fiscal year that ended in March recorded a $2.9-billion profit, a 96-percent surge. Honda maintains a top-drawer quality reputation.

Yet analysts, industry watchers and even Honda loyalists continue to murmur the company is losing its legendary edge for forward-looking engineering and an uncanny ability to apply that engineering in a way that delights customers.

John Wolkonowicz, manager of special projects for the IHS Global Insight North American auto forecasting group, said the reputation Honda earned in the 1980s and 1990s has allowed the company to hover above recent reality in the eyes of the car-buying public.

"The Honda name is still the gold standard in the industry," Wolkonowicz told AutoObserver. "But the fact is, they really seem to have lost it."

Edmunds.com analyst Ivan Dury says Honda so far has averted a precipitous sales slide. Still, consumer shopping consideration for Honda has been down in the first quarter this year at a time when one would expect it to be up in light of rival Toyota's troubles. "Honda's situation has the ingredients for a potentially tragic sales slide. If Honda keeps piling on incentives and sales remain flat or slip, we'll have another story on our hands."

The company delayed the Civic because whatever it had planned for the past four years now isn't right. Understanding of the company's off-message product-development apparently has reached the top chair.

President Takanobu Ito seemed to confirm at last month's Beijing auto show that he's aware Honda has lost a step or three, suggesting the company's engineering and marketing may have become "complacent," and adding his displeasure over the company's loss of U.S. market share in the first quarter this year.

The Civic engineering team may have been scared straight by a rash of new-model miscues that have left its development acumen in question. For one, it had planned the now-delayed Civic to be larger, but many critics contend that's one of Honda's prime problems: the company has been subsituting size for innovation - the latest-generation Accord being the chief example.

More directly, another engorged Civic probably wouldn't compare favorably with the 40 miles-per-gallon highway fuel-economy numbers of new models entering the market, including Ford Motor Co.'s 2011 Fiesta and General Motors Co.'s 2011 Chevrolet Cruze. The best a conventionally powered current-generation Civic can manage is 36 mpg on the highway (the slow-selling Civic Hybrid whirrs out 45-mpg highway rating).

But the reasons Honda delayed the Civic run deeper than just proportions or fuel economy.

"The story here is the new products are not up to par," notes Edmunds.com's Drury. "The redesign of the Civic - one of Honda's three core products along with the Accord and CR-V -- could spell disaster if they get it wrong."

Drury notes Honda's trio of three core models make up more than two-thirds of the brand's sales volume.

"I think they looked at the competition the next-generation Civic will face and realized they weren't top of the heap on several fronts," said Wolkonowicz. He thinks almost all of Honda's recently launched models - including those of its Acura premium-car division - have not been up to the standards of the past, by either engineering or styling measures.

Nonetheless, the Civic delay represents "very positive news for Honda," Wolkonowicz said, adding that the company stopping the Civic program in its tracks seems to be a signal Honda is acknowledging its corporate drift.

"This is the most encouraging news of all," he continued, saying the delay of the Civic is an all-too-rare admission from Honda that the next Civic "isn't perfect, like they (perceive) everything they've done before. I don't think they would have done this five years ago."

But, he cautioned of the Civic delay: "I hope it's a more effective use of a year than Toyota got with the Corolla," when it delayed the U.S. launch of the current-generation Corolla from 2007 until 2008. Toyota said the delay was due to scarce engineering resources and to insure quality, but speculation proposed the launch was postponed to tweak bland styling and other competitive attributes.

Backsliding While Competition Is Gaining

Honda's top-of-the-heap standing for compact cars and midsize family sedans has been assailed on several fronts, most notably from the surging Hyundai/Kia conglomerate - but also from a revitalized Ford and General Motors Co.

But Honda's worst enemy recently seems to have been itself.

Wolkonowicz and other industry analysts point to many of the vehicles Honda and Acura currently have on the road as evidence of the company's foundering ways. Wolkonowicz said Honda's product-development backsliding has led to a "string of losers" after Honda spent years developing what many believed were cars with the best engineering-per-dollar value in the entire industry.

Another analyst said many recently launched Hondas are "sloppily designed, not very good to drive and even worse to look at."

All of those shots could apply to the Insight hybrid-electric vehicle, a car designed to 2010 Honda Insight vs 2010 Toyota Prius - 275.JPGshowcase Honda's technical ability - and prospectively go head-to-head with Toyota's dominating Prius hybrid. But the company's still licking its wounds from the dismal response to the year-old Insight, which came to market with dumpy styling, unexceptional fuel economy and a thorough cheapness in appointments and driving feel.

Customers seem to agree: the Insight found just 6,853 buyers in the first four months of this year, a sales pace that is a fraction of what Honda projected. "It's really not a very good car," IHS Global Insight's Wolkonowicz declared.

There is little reason to believe the Honda CR-Z hybrid coupe derived from the Insight, going on sale in the U.S. this fall, will be any better; European enthusiast-magazine reviews have been politely noncommittal but cannot completely avoid giving the impression the CR-Z, if at least more engagingly styled than the Insight, also is a dud to drive. Edmunds.com's Inside Line drove a Japan-specification CR-Z earlier this year and found it engaging at some level but concluded the car utlimately is not the warm-performance coupe Honda suggested it would be - nor does it live up to the role of sharp-handling CRX successor enthusiasts had projected for it.

Acura Struggles

The waning performance of the Acura upscale division is the topic of almost constant industry speculation, as Acura seems to further alienate its devoted buyers and produce few new ones, searching for a positioning strategy for its front-wheel-drive based luxury cars and crossovers. The brand abandoned its popular (and volume-selling) coupe, its flagship sells in the low hundreds of units monthly and critics insist each new generation of Acura is inferior to the model it replaces.

Edmunds.com's Drury points out that Acura is in the same situation as Honda, relying largely on a few vehicles for the bulk of its volume. The MDX, TL and TSX account for 87 percent of Acura sales. Sales of its other models - RL, ZDX and RDX - are "lukewarm."

Styling Miscues

Honda also has pulled the trigger on a string of stylistic dogs. The original Pilot crossover was bland but fit with the times, but the second-generation Pilot, launched in 2008, looked tired and passe before the first one was sold.

AutoObserver's comment at the time gives perspective to Honda's decision to delay the new Civic: "Launching the new Pilot exposes one of the Japan Inc.'s only flaws: reluctance to backtrack once a course has been set. Maybe after gauging the early reaction, if somebody with power had been able to say, 'This stinks, and we need to try again -- even if it means delaying our precious launch timetable,' the Pilot might have been redeemed."

The styling of the Accord Crosstour has endured near-universal disdain, the aging Ridgeline and Element have never been considered anything other than ugly ducklings and just about every vehicle in Acura's lineup is fanatically unattractive.

It's The Engineering, Stupid

But styling is subjective - and in the case of many esteemed brands, vehicles sell well despite weak or even off-putting styling.

Honda's real problem seems to come from the last place anyone - including those within the company - would expect: unconfident engineering.

For some time, Honda hasn't delivered much of the kind of innovation that once was baked into every new generation of vehicle it launched. Even the hardest of hardcore Honda fanboys admit it: from decisions like discarding double-wishbone front suspension for the Civic to wedging a V6 under the hood of the already too-fat new Acura TSX, Honda's answers of late seem to be little more than me-too solutions.

Honda was the first automaker to introduce a hybrid-electric electric vehicle in the U.S. - but quickly and gave away its leadership to Toyota. How? By sticking with the "mild" hybrid strategy of its Integrated Motor Assist technology, effectively backing the wrong engineering horse. Honda gambled the less-complex and less-expensive mild-hybrid approach - inserted into existing models - was the way to go with hybrids. With the Prius and its more-efficient full-hybrid engineering and a dedicated hybrid styling, Toyota blew past Honda and has never looked back.

And what of Honda's unparalleled reputation for engine advances? The company has assiduously avoided the direct-injection fueling that's fast becoming a standard for other makers. Honda backed away from a plan to make diesel engines one of Acura's technical calling cards.

While rival automakers are turning to high technology to generate more power from smaller engines - once a Honda forte - Honda's march has been to simply make its engines larger (insiders already are saying one change to come from the Civic's delay will be the move to a high-tech "downsized" engine). Other makers have bypassed Honda even in its area of perpetual engine leadership: advanced valvetrain designs.

Honda had long been able to claim being the U.S. market's fuel-economy leader. Hyundai stole away that badge last year.

The same week it acknowledged the plan to re-engineer the Civic, Honda also confirmed a second delay in the production timeline for its high-profile HondaJet corporate jet. HondaJet production now is scheduled for mid 2012, two years later than originally promised.

"It's not going to be so easy for Honda anymore," to maintain its engineering reputation, Wolkonowicz said. "Honda had a kind of superiority complex for many years. It became part of the internal culture. They need to do some soul-searching." - Bill Visnic, Senior Editor

CBRich · 05-28-2010, 09:26 PM

Wow. I have been a big Honda guy for a long time and this article describes PERFECTLY why I recently shifted away.

Replaced my Accord coupe with a Lexus rather than an Acura because they are ugly and not competitive on the upscale front.

Added a 370Z rather than a Honda because they simply don't have any more entertaining vehicles.

It's actually pretty sad. I'd love for Honda to win me back but they have seriously faltered.

Rui Z · 05-28-2010, 11:26 PM

RSX, NSX, S2000, Prelude, Formula 1 all gone. I was going to wait until the CRZ came out to buy a new car based on the awesome concept design. Instead they made it a modern CRX look instead of futuristic. In addition it has no power and crappy mileage for a hybrid. Total fail in my eyes. So instead I bought the 370Z. Win!

Brazilbro · 05-28-2010, 11:47 PM

Honda has been falling for awhile and with out the s2000 and NSX they dont have any performance cars. My wife was going to get the new Insight when it came out but it was a complete dud, only getting MPG in the 40's and costing 22k+ She ended up getting a Fit sport for 16k new. The Fit is a great car. It holds me the wife and baby perfectly with a lot of room in the back for stroller and all. Gets 34city and 37 Hwy. The only other honda i would buy would be the RDX turbo but its damn pricey.
Why dont they wanta mess with Direct Inj?

nicknick · 06-02-2010, 11:09 PM

It seems the accountants are running the place and not the engineers. Like Toyota, Honda is only producing boring suvs and sedans. They probably think they can make big dollars like Toyota.
I say stay away from manufacturers who only produce boring cars with no sports cars in their line up. Support sports car manufactures.

ArtVandaleigh · 06-03-2010, 10:19 AM

I too was a big Honda guy before buying Nissan's (owned a 99 Civic SI and 98 Integra Type R, dad had a 04 S2K). They have completely and utterly gotten out of the sports car and sports coupe market. It's really sad to see because they had fantastic cars in the 90's and early 2000's, and I know they still have the talent and engineering to pull off some competitive (and fun) vehicles. Honda used to be such a big name in racing too, and they reflected that on it's consumer offerings. It's almost like Ferrari stopping it's exotic car production and focusing on SUV's and sporty family sedans.

wolf370z · 06-16-2010, 12:42 AM

Toyota and Honda have both fallen in my eyes. Gone are the days of the supra, ae86, RWD celicas, etc. Gone are the days of the NSX, s2000, RSX, etc.

It seems like everyone's just building boring sedans that boast ergonomics and good gas mileage. Styling and performance are no longer important considerations it seems like. Even the "fun cars" are getting ugly... namely the 2010+ mustang and the 2010+ camaro (although the camaro has been ugly since 1970 lol)... I digress.

Sports cars just don't matter anymore.

Niche79 · 06-16-2010, 06:58 AM

I am truly happy to see that someone posted this up. I have been feeling this way about Hondas the last 4 or 5 years. If you look in my sig at the current cars I have piled up, both were some of Honda's Fun cars back in the day. The reason Im even on this Z forum now IS because Honda said screw its loyal fanbase! I know the economy is tough but hey, if Hyundai can bring out a cool looking sports car than Honda, you just suck. Ive owned 4 hondas in the last 10 years and loved them all but I have seen from going to the dealership that the quality is also starting to slip. People are right in saying Honda just doesnt care about sports cars anymore, if I needed a family car yah I would go look at Honda but im not married and have no kids so they have nothing for me anymore. On that topic, we dont even wana mention the huge nose dive that Acura has taken over the last 3 years, wow.....They are some of the ugliest cars on the road. They killed one of the coolest looking sedans ever made the TL and replaced it with some huge box on wheels

I could easily continue my rant and ravings forever on but this isnt the Honda forums so I wont. But I am so glad that other people that were true Honda fans are seeing the same things I see when you go by a Honda dealer, uggh yuck! When I first got into the Market recently to buy a new sports car I went back to Honda but within 5 mins I walked back out and say sorry guys you just dont have anything for a younger single guy anymore. I did the whole Camaro SS test drive and really like the style but the cheap interior is just awful, American cars never worry about taking pride in their workmanship. I then said heck with it, I think the new Z looks good lets go see, 30 min drive later and I was hooked! Little things from the curvy lines to the huge 19" wheels just caught my eye. I love how well Nissan worked on the interior since thats what im looking at the whole time I am driving, just perfect! The dealer didnt have my color in stock but said that when I was ready to call him and he could get it to me within a day or two. I woulda bought the car right then and there but the GF is hastling me for a ring and Id rather not put that on a credit card with them, instead Im just saving a few more months and paying cash and THEN I am allowed to buy the Z!!! haha

Great post, 110% agree on it! Honda is dying on its feet and Hyundai will be the New Honda in 10 years with their stylish lineup!

05-28-2010, 11:47 PM	#4 (permalink)
Brazilbro A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Mar 2009 Location: Indianapolis, IN Posts: 1,131 Drives: Juke/240Z Rep Power: 848	Honda has been falling for awhile and with out the s2000 and NSX they dont have any performance cars. My wife was going to get the new Insight when it came out but it was a complete dud, only getting MPG in the 40's and costing 22k+ She ended up getting a Fit sport for 16k new. The Fit is a great car. It holds me the wife and baby perfectly with a lot of room in the back for stroller and all. Gets 34city and 37 Hwy. The only other honda i would buy would be the RDX turbo but its damn pricey. Why dont they wanta mess with Direct Inj? __________________ Juke AWD/240Z SR20 08 Evo 10(Stage 2) SOLD Fastest Sport 6spd 370Z 11.8 @126.5SOLD

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05-28-2010, 09:26 PM	#2 (permalink)
CBRich A True Z Fanatic Join Date: Apr 2009 Location: SC Posts: 2,464 Drives: 370Z Rep Power: 544	Wow. I have been a big Honda guy for a long time and this article describes PERFECTLY why I recently shifted away. Replaced my Accord coupe with a Lexus rather than an Acura because they are ugly and not competitive on the upscale front. Added a 370Z rather than a Honda because they simply don't have any more entertaining vehicles. It's actually pretty sad. I'd love for Honda to win me back but they have seriously faltered.

05-28-2010, 11:26 PM	#3 (permalink)
Rui Z Track Member Join Date: Feb 2010 Location: (.)(.) Posts: 931 Drives: 8====D Rep Power: 16	RSX, NSX, S2000, Prelude, Formula 1 all gone. I was going to wait until the CRZ came out to buy a new car based on the awesome concept design. Instead they made it a modern CRX look instead of futuristic. In addition it has no power and crappy mileage for a hybrid. Total fail in my eyes. So instead I bought the 370Z. Win!

06-02-2010, 11:09 PM	#5 (permalink)
nicknick Enthusiast Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: Australia Posts: 438 Drives: Mazda mx5 2007 6sp m Rep Power: 16	It seems the accountants are running the place and not the engineers. Like Toyota, Honda is only producing boring suvs and sedans. They probably think they can make big dollars like Toyota. I say stay away from manufacturers who only produce boring cars with no sports cars in their line up. Support sports car manufactures.

06-03-2010, 10:19 AM	#6 (permalink)
ArtVandaleigh Base Member Join Date: Jan 2009 Location: NE Ohio Posts: 227 Drives: 09 PW 370Z Rep Power: 675	I too was a big Honda guy before buying Nissan's (owned a 99 Civic SI and 98 Integra Type R, dad had a 04 S2K). They have completely and utterly gotten out of the sports car and sports coupe market. It's really sad to see because they had fantastic cars in the 90's and early 2000's, and I know they still have the talent and engineering to pull off some competitive (and fun) vehicles. Honda used to be such a big name in racing too, and they reflected that on it's consumer offerings. It's almost like Ferrari stopping it's exotic car production and focusing on SUV's and sporty family sedans.

06-16-2010, 12:42 AM	#7 (permalink)
wolf370z Base Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: United States Posts: 230 Drives: 09 370z red m6 Rep Power: 15	Toyota and Honda have both fallen in my eyes. Gone are the days of the supra, ae86, RWD celicas, etc. Gone are the days of the NSX, s2000, RSX, etc. It seems like everyone's just building boring sedans that boast ergonomics and good gas mileage. Styling and performance are no longer important considerations it seems like. Even the "fun cars" are getting ugly... namely the 2010+ mustang and the 2010+ camaro (although the camaro has been ugly since 1970 lol)... I digress. Sports cars just don't matter anymore.

06-16-2010, 06:58 AM	#8 (permalink)
Niche79 Track Member Join Date: Jan 2010 Location: Kissimmee, FL Posts: 900 Drives: '09 SR Tour/Sprt/Nav Rep Power: 36	I am truly happy to see that someone posted this up. I have been feeling this way about Hondas the last 4 or 5 years. If you look in my sig at the current cars I have piled up, both were some of Honda's Fun cars back in the day. The reason Im even on this Z forum now IS because Honda said screw its loyal fanbase! I know the economy is tough but hey, if Hyundai can bring out a cool looking sports car than Honda, you just suck. Ive owned 4 hondas in the last 10 years and loved them all but I have seen from going to the dealership that the quality is also starting to slip. People are right in saying Honda just doesnt care about sports cars anymore, if I needed a family car yah I would go look at Honda but im not married and have no kids so they have nothing for me anymore. On that topic, we dont even wana mention the huge nose dive that Acura has taken over the last 3 years, wow.....They are some of the ugliest cars on the road. They killed one of the coolest looking sedans ever made the TL and replaced it with some huge box on wheels I could easily continue my rant and ravings forever on but this isnt the Honda forums so I wont. But I am so glad that other people that were true Honda fans are seeing the same things I see when you go by a Honda dealer, uggh yuck! When I first got into the Market recently to buy a new sports car I went back to Honda but within 5 mins I walked back out and say sorry guys you just dont have anything for a younger single guy anymore. I did the whole Camaro SS test drive and really like the style but the cheap interior is just awful, American cars never worry about taking pride in their workmanship. I then said heck with it, I think the new Z looks good lets go see, 30 min drive later and I was hooked! Little things from the curvy lines to the huge 19" wheels just caught my eye. I love how well Nissan worked on the interior since thats what im looking at the whole time I am driving, just perfect! The dealer didnt have my color in stock but said that when I was ready to call him and he could get it to me within a day or two. I woulda bought the car right then and there but the GF is hastling me for a ring and Id rather not put that on a credit card with them, instead Im just saving a few more months and paying cash and THEN I am allowed to buy the Z!!! haha Great post, 110% agree on it! Honda is dying on its feet and Hyundai will be the New Honda in 10 years with their stylish lineup!