anyone getting MSRP (or below)

Hi-TecDesigns · 07-31-2009, 05:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by davidyan

If you don't like shopping at 10 different lots and pitting them against each other, just go to one- tell them your price (I rec $500 - $1000) below invoice for the 370Z and stick to it.

I simply can't see this working, at least not with those figures. 2% holdback on a base/sport model is $640 (give or take). Unless that car has been sitting on their lot for 6 months and they believe they have no hope of getting rid of it any time soon (the interest is losing them money at this point), I can't see them saying "Sure, we'll let the car go for what we paid for it (or even less) and eat what we've paid in interest so far. We'll call it a learning experience" this isn't last year's Corolla that they need to dump because the new models have been on the lot for 3 months, this is a higher-end vehicle that is still in its current year (though fast approaching the end of it).

I certainly agree with the concept of what you are preaching, and if I was trying to buy that Corolla and knew what kind of leverage I had, I'd do it, but I don't think many would find themselves in a position to have that kind of leverage on a Z for at least another few months. I can imagine a dealer agreeing to $100-$200 below invoice if he is having a bad couple of months, but not below his holdback.

EDIT: I should add... I didn't mean to make anyone believe I had a problem with paying invoice... that's my target number, and I'm happy if I hit it. I'd only expect less than invoice in the case of the Corolla I mentioned. Would I take a deal at less than invoice if the dealer didn't bat an eye when it was offered? Sure, but I'm not going to brow beat the guy trying to get less than that.

davidyan · 07-31-2009, 09:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi-TecDesigns

I simply can't see this working, at least not with those figures. 2% holdback on a base/sport model is $640 (give or take). Unless that car has been sitting on their lot for 6 months and they believe they have no hope of getting rid of it any time soon (the interest is losing them money at this point), I can't see them saying "Sure, we'll let the car go for what we paid for it (or even less) and eat what we've paid in interest so far. We'll call it a learning experience" this isn't last year's Corolla that they need to dump because the new models have been on the lot for 3 months, this is a higher-end vehicle that is still in its current year (though fast approaching the end of it).

I certainly agree with the concept of what you are preaching, and if I was trying to buy that Corolla and knew what kind of leverage I had, I'd do it, but I don't think many would find themselves in a position to have that kind of leverage on a Z for at least another few months. I can imagine a dealer agreeing to $100-$200 below invoice if he is having a bad couple of months, but not below his holdback.

Invoice price is a great deal as well. However, what I suggested is not only possible but has been done. I got 600 below invoice which is right at their breakeven after holdback. One person here got 1000 below indicating a loss for the dealer. There are quite a few buyers within the 500 - 1000 below invoice range which is why I thought it would be helpful for you to know.

Do whatever makes you feel comfortable. All this talk of "hot car" = higher price isn't always true either. When I worked as a salesman at Dodge during college, we had two Vipers. We sold one Viper at $10K below invoice with no dealer incentives other than the std holdback simply because it sat too long. The owner would yell at us each Saturday asking us why it wasn't sold. For the second one, another person came by thinking that because it was rare that MSRP was a great deal and paid just that (we even had a $20K markup sticker on top of the MSRP). Good thing he's probably rich enough as a Viper buyer to not have been impacted by the lost savings he could have had.

My dad bought an S-Class Mercedes at a time when the dot com boom happened and people in the Silicon Valley (where I'm from) were making tons of money left and right from IPOs. There were Mercedes all over the road. Even then, they sold it to him for $4K below invoice. The car business (dealer side) just has very low margins. Its their structure. They make up for it and still profit by:

- Volume Bonuses offered to the owner of the dealer: For ex, if a dealer sells X number of new cars in a month, the owner of the dealership will get a huge check from corporate. This is different BTW than customer incentives that they pass on to you. This makes up for the $400 he lost selling you the Z for $1000 below invoice (after roughly 600 holdback) worthwhile if he is close to hitting that target and just needs to sell a few more units. This is why people buy cars for far below invoice all the time.

- Selling extended warranties, service packages, paint sealant, etc.

- Financing

- Used car sales where they buy from auctions for dirt cheap. Also, with used cars, the customer never really knows what the dealer paid. Its not like new cars where you can look it up online.

- Trade ins.

- This next one is not a incentive but, a dealership owner could actually lose its ability to sell that brand if they consistently miss volume targets. This almost happened to my friends dealer where he worked as a salesman. They sold few new cars and mostly relied on used cars for revenue. Finally Chrysler (it was a Jeep dealer) told their owner that they would cut his dealer if he didnt start pushing volume. This happened by the way a couple years before the current auto crisis.

Hi-TecDesigns · 08-01-2009, 09:11 AM

Well, David, I went into a dealership last night with a renewed vigor, due in part to your post of people getting deals for less than invoice. I saw exactly what I wanted, in chicane yellow... the color is my favorite, but I was simply not willing to pay $500 for a color choice. In a nutshell, I told the sales manager I was willing to pay $300 of that $500 (essentially $200 below invoice), but the full $500 was out of the question as I would be happy with several other colors (none of which they had on the lot in the package I want).

It was obvious they would have accepted invoice, but they started to piss me off when they wanted to play hocus pocus with the numbers, continually asking me how much over invoice I wanted to pay (I couldn't have been more clear I was not going to pay a dime over invoice). Let's take a look at the kind of price crap they tried to pull with me, shall we? (Note: I knew exactly how much this vehicle and every option cost them for invoice, not assuming any extra dealer-specific bonuses for good customer feedback to Nissan corporate and such, which only helps them)

1) Showing me invoice price plus destination, calling that invoice, and trying to convince me that price was what I was calling invoice in my original calculations, making it appear as if I undercalculated the vehicle's value by $700+.
2) Taking my "out the door price" offer and working backwards to what they claimed I was actually offering them (any astute person knows that 6% tax on price 'X' is not the same as 6% of price 'X'+tax, a mathematical sleight of hand which makes it look like I'm offering about $120 less than what I really am). I'm an engineer that calculates pi to 50 places in my head without breaking a sweat, so don't pull that BS on me.
3) Pointing to my offer price and showing how much lower than MSRP it is. Well, duh!
4) Throwing out multiple figures while I'm trying to calculate in my head what each option is worth, even after asking for a minute to do just that in peace and quiet. You may make me lose count, but that just means I'm going to start from the beginning again, and now you've succeeded in pissing me off.
5) Trying to tell me the dealership would be losing money on the deal, especially right after I finished telling them I knew exactly how much profit they were making in holdback and "processing" fees (about $550).
6) Telling me how "hot" this car is and how selling it at that price would be crazy for such a great-selling car, leading me to shoot back with:
a) 2010s will be on your lot in a month and a half
b) This car has been on your lot for a while now (costing you, I bet, about $25/wk in lost profit)
c) upcoming models are 40th anniversary, meaning new colors (like black cherry) and custom badging
7) Other minor crap not worth mentioning, but still annoying, nonetheless.

In the end we couldn't make a deal, so I shook his hand, thanked him and the sales guy for their time, and hopped back in our new Cube and drove home. The search will continue today. Current deals end August 3rd, none of which include the 370Z, so hopefully we'll see some incentives show up after the new deal cycle kicks in.

Cjanik · 08-01-2009, 12:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi-TecDesigns

It was obvious they would have accepted invoice, but they started to piss me off when they wanted to play hocus pocus with the numbers, continually asking me how much over invoice I wanted to pay (I couldn't have been more clear I was not going to pay a dime over invoice). Let's take a look at the kind of price crap they tried to pull with me, shall we? (Note: I knew exactly how much this vehicle and every option cost them for invoice, not assuming any extra dealer-specific bonuses for good customer feedback to Nissan corporate and such, which only helps them)

1) Showing me invoice price plus destination, calling that invoice, and trying to convince me that price was what I was calling invoice in my original calculations, making it appear as if I undercalculated the vehicle's value by $700+.
2) Taking my "out the door price" offer and working backwards to what they claimed I was actually offering them (any astute person knows that 6% tax on price 'X' is not the same as 6% of price 'X'+tax, a mathematical sleight of hand which makes it look like I'm offering about $120 less than what I really am). I'm an engineer that calculates pi to 50 places in my head without breaking a sweat, so don't pull that BS on me.
3) Pointing to my offer price and showing how much lower than MSRP it is. Well, duh!
4) Throwing out multiple figures while I'm trying to calculate in my head what each option is worth, even after asking for a minute to do just that in peace and quiet. You may make me lose count, but that just means I'm going to start from the beginning again, and now you've succeeded in pissing me off.
5) Trying to tell me the dealership would be losing money on the deal, especially right after I finished telling them I knew exactly how much profit they were making in holdback and "processing" fees (about $550).
6) Telling me how "hot" this car is and how selling it at that price would be crazy for such a great-selling car, leading me to shoot back with:
a) 2010s will be on your lot in a month and a half
b) This car has been on your lot for a while now (costing you, I bet, about $25/wk in lost profit)
c) upcoming models are 40th anniversary, meaning new colors (like black cherry) and custom badging
7) Other minor crap not worth mentioning, but still annoying, nonetheless.

sounds like the dealer tried to get you, maybe called your bluff. You should wait a couple days then go back to the same guy, he will now know your willing to walk away again and might just "want to get it over with".

Also wanted to mention, there is a factory charge called destination charge which the dealer must pay. it is not really negotiable - because thats the price it cost to ship it from japan.

Dont take their BS about how 370z's are selling like hotcakes, thats total BS, my dealer has only sold 1 370z in the last 2 months and they have 8 370z's

I gotta say it sounded like you did a good job negotiating. Dont give up yet!

Hi-TecDesigns · 08-01-2009, 07:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cjanik

sounds like the dealer tried to get you, maybe called your bluff. You should wait a couple days then go back to the same guy, he will now know your willing to walk away again and might just "want to get it over with".

I intend to wait until after the 3rd (Monday) has passed... the current incentives (unfortunately on just about every car but the 370Z) are good until then, so hopefully starting with the 4th a whole new batch of incentives will be in place. It's their last chance to get older cars off of the lot before the new ones start rolling on.

Quote:

Also wanted to mention, there is a factory charge called destination charge which the dealer must pay. it is not really negotiable - because thats the price it cost to ship it from japan.

If you notice in the first numbered item I mention the destination charge. I know it exists, that it's non-negotiable, and its exact amount. I'm sure to include it in my calculations.

Quote:

Dont take their BS about how 370z's are selling like hotcakes, thats total BS, my dealer has only sold 1 370z in the last 2 months and they have 8 370z's

I gotta say it sounded like you did a good job negotiating. Dont give up yet!

I made a reasonable attempt given my level of patience and energy level that day. I'll keep this particular car in mind if I don't find another one I like, but I'm not holding it out as the only one left.

As far as negotiations went, this was the breakdown:
1) With available options and destination, invoice on vehicle was $33,179
2) Add tax, we're up to $35,170
3) I initially offered $34,900 out the door, which started the lesson in mathematics
4) I came up to $200 below invoice, adding another $70, mainly to keep the math simple and prevent any more mind games (it's easier to say "I'll pay $200 below invoice" than "My final offer is $xx, xxxx")
5) No deal.

Modshack · 08-04-2009, 04:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Hi-TecDesigns

As far as negotiations went, this was the breakdown:
1) With available options and destination, invoice on vehicle was $33,179
2) Add tax, we're up to $35,170
3) I initially offered $34,900 out the door, which started the lesson in mathematics
4) I came up to $200 below invoice, adding another $70, mainly to keep the math simple and prevent any more mind games (it's easier to say "I'll pay $200 below invoice" than "My final offer is $xx, xxxx")
5) No deal.

Leave the OTD stuff out of your negotiations unless thay have a crazy doc fee. Taxes and tags are a given. You're not negotiating them, but the car. If you know the price (on the car) you're willing to pay, there is no negotiations. You just let them play their games and wait them out. I bought mine with a VPP number which is essentially $100 under invoice so we didn't have to negotiate the car. The negotiation was for the trade. I got them up $3000 just sitting there and holding on the number I wanted. We did the deal eventually.

Hi-TecDesigns · 08-04-2009, 05:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Modshack

Leave the OTD stuff out of your negotiations unless thay have a crazy doc fee. Taxes and tags are a given. You're not negotiating them, but the car. If you know the price (on the car) you're willing to pay, there is no negotiations. You just let them play their games and wait them out. I bought mine with a VPP number which is essentially $100 under invoice so we didn't have to negotiate the car. The negotiation was for the trade. I got them up $3000 just sitting there and holding on the number I wanted. We did the deal eventually.

The "paperwork" fee is $100, and I specifically stated my OTD cost of $200 under invoice did not include it. I didn't expect a yellow when I got there, nor did I expect the car not to have floor/trunk mats. Because of this, I had to do some head calcs of the new tax, minus mats, plus yellow, etc. the salesman asked me what I wanted to offer, so I quickly threw out $34,900 without finishing my head calcs, knowing it would be in the ballpark. He stepped out, the sales manager stepped in, and the amusement began. As I was finishing the head cals, I realized I was approaching $300 under invoice with that initial offer, so instead of throwing out an adjusted $35,000 even, I simply said $200 under invoice is my price. There was no "negotiation" on my part, I just had to get my asking price closer after making a mistake.

08-01-2009, 09:11 AM	#3 (permalink)
Hi-TecDesigns Base Member Join Date: Jul 2009 Location: Glenelg, MD Posts: 146 Drives: 370 Rdstr AT7 BkChry Rep Power: 17	Well, David, I went into a dealership last night with a renewed vigor, due in part to your post of people getting deals for less than invoice. I saw exactly what I wanted, in chicane yellow... the color is my favorite, but I was simply not willing to pay $500 for a color choice. In a nutshell, I told the sales manager I was willing to pay $300 of that $500 (essentially $200 below invoice), but the full $500 was out of the question as I would be happy with several other colors (none of which they had on the lot in the package I want). It was obvious they would have accepted invoice, but they started to piss me off when they wanted to play hocus pocus with the numbers, continually asking me how much over invoice I wanted to pay (I couldn't have been more clear I was not going to pay a dime over invoice). Let's take a look at the kind of price crap they tried to pull with me, shall we? (Note: I knew exactly how much this vehicle and every option cost them for invoice, not assuming any extra dealer-specific bonuses for good customer feedback to Nissan corporate and such, which only helps them) 1) Showing me invoice price plus destination, calling that invoice, and trying to convince me that price was what I was calling invoice in my original calculations, making it appear as if I undercalculated the vehicle's value by $700+. 2) Taking my "out the door price" offer and working backwards to what they claimed I was actually offering them (any astute person knows that 6% tax on price 'X' is not the same as 6% of price 'X'+tax, a mathematical sleight of hand which makes it look like I'm offering about $120 less than what I really am). I'm an engineer that calculates pi to 50 places in my head without breaking a sweat, so don't pull that BS on me. 3) Pointing to my offer price and showing how much lower than MSRP it is. Well, duh! 4) Throwing out multiple figures while I'm trying to calculate in my head what each option is worth, even after asking for a minute to do just that in peace and quiet. You may make me lose count, but that just means I'm going to start from the beginning again, and now you've succeeded in pissing me off. 5) Trying to tell me the dealership would be losing money on the deal, especially right after I finished telling them I knew exactly how much profit they were making in holdback and "processing" fees (about $550). 6) Telling me how "hot" this car is and how selling it at that price would be crazy for such a great-selling car, leading me to shoot back with: a) 2010s will be on your lot in a month and a half b) This car has been on your lot for a while now (costing you, I bet, about $25/wk in lost profit) c) upcoming models are 40th anniversary, meaning new colors (like black cherry) and custom badging 7) Other minor crap not worth mentioning, but still annoying, nonetheless. In the end we couldn't make a deal, so I shook his hand, thanked him and the sales guy for their time, and hopped back in our new Cube and drove home. The search will continue today. Current deals end August 3rd, none of which include the 370Z, so hopefully we'll see some incentives show up after the new deal cycle kicks in. __________________ http://hi-tecdesigns.com/images/pict...on%20Small.gif 2000 S2000 Brickyard Red Metallic w/ Romanesque Crimson Kandy, custom everything else

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